Pacifism and the Left

[NYcarbineer]

I must say I'm enjoying PC insisting that all troops are heroes, except for Carb, of course, becauase you know how he's a dirty lib so his service doesn't count.

And I chose to remind her of that at the exact moment. I guess we are both enjoying that immensely.

These are like dissections, only without the annoying smell of formaldehyde.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Why are those the only two positions? It's a false dichotomy so you can smear everyone that doesn't support your hyper-militaristic position as "hating the troops".

And I don't see why you should accept claims that soldiers returning from Vietnam being spit on, since there is pretty strong evidence they're false. It's interesting to note they didn't appear in decades after the fact.

This is a philosophical debate with political consequences.

You choose either of the extreme positions, just as you choose one of two major party candidates.

You may choose some other position, but, as when one votes third party, it is meaningless.

"It's a false dichotomy so you can smear ...."
Not false, it represents the political reality.

You consider it a smear, because you are closer to a position that is indefensible.

And yet you are able to demand that we call all veterans heroes, but refused to call me one.

Note to Thing-1 and Thing-2...

I merely left it up to carby to claim that either he is a hero or he is not.

Read more carefully.

 

[NYcarbineer]

That's a major philosophical difference. Are humans pure from the beginning or flawed from the beginning?

And what, if anything, does political stance, (left or right) have to do with morality?

What I can see is different with me and some other people morally, is that some believe man is inherently evil whereas I believe in essential goodness.

Also, there is difference between people who are moral absolutist and those who aren't.

Buddhists have precepts to follow, and one is not to kill. Nonetheless, a moral absolutist would say a woman should NEVER have an abortion, even if her life is in danger. A moral relativist would say, that while killing is wrong, letting a woman die so the fetus can be born may not be wise.

There is always the consideration of wisdom. It is not just rules, but how the rules are applied.

Non-violence as a moral value. That would mean favoring non-violent resistance for social change as demonstrated by Gandhi and MLK. The essential question of the OP has to do with moral absolutism, which the OP identifies with the right, her side. Whereas, moral relativism, would allow someone to see the evil in Bush starting a war without good cause. We may differ in what we consider a greater evil.

Don't confuse the OP's verbosity with complexity, or god forbid, insight.

What the OP does is set up a simple strawman and knock it down.

"God" is capitalized.

jesus was a pacifist.

 

[NYcarbineer]

This is a philosophical debate with political consequences.

You choose either of the extreme positions, just as you choose one of two major party candidates.

You may choose some other position, but, as when one votes third party, it is meaningless.

"It's a false dichotomy so you can smear ...."
Not false, it represents the political reality.

You consider it a smear, because you are closer to a position that is indefensible.

And yet you are able to demand that we call all veterans heroes, but refused to call me one.

Note to Thing-1 and Thing-2...

I merely left it up to carby to claim that either he is a hero or he is not.

Read more carefully.

No, you heaped scorn wrath and ridicule on anyone who might be uncomfortable calling me a hero, which I skillfully demonstrated, included YOU.

So in effect you're your own harshest critic, and a kindred spirit of Chris Hayes to boot.

 

[regent]

I still remember pre-Pearl Harbor bars with signs in the window, "Please, No Dogs or Soldiers" so I take this hero stuff with a jaundiced eye. Or as Kipling said:

“In times of war, and not before,
God and the soldier men adore;
When the war is o’er and all things righted,
The Lord’s forgot and the soldier slighted.”

 

[PoliticalChic]

Don't confuse the OP's verbosity with complexity, or god forbid, insight.

What the OP does is set up a simple strawman and knock it down.

"God" is capitalized.

jesus was a pacifist.

Then said he unto them, But now, he that has a purse, let him take it, and likewise his bag: and he that has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
Luke 22:36

 

[PoliticalChic]

And yet you are able to demand that we call all veterans heroes, but refused to call me one.

Note to Thing-1 and Thing-2...

I merely left it up to carby to claim that either he is a hero or he is not.

Read more carefully.

No, you heaped scorn wrath and ridicule on anyone who might be uncomfortable calling me a hero, which I skillfully demonstrated, included YOU.

So in effect you're your own harshest critic, and a kindred spirit of Chris Hayes to boot.

This was post #71:
"As far as being a hero...well, you might be the best judge."


You should read more carefully.

Now, where is your apology?

Or...are you a Liberal?

 

[PoliticalChic]

I still remember pre-Pearl Harbor bars with signs in the window, "Please, No Dogs or Soldiers" so I take this hero stuff with a jaundiced eye. Or as Kipling said:

“In times of war, and not before,
God and the soldier men adore;
When the war is o’er and all things righted,
The Lord’s forgot and the soldier slighted.”

I think you're making that up, reggie....

According to snopes, no one has produced convincing evidence of such signs....

snopes.com: Keep Off the Grass


How do you like this verse...


Then out spoke brave Horatius, the Captain of the Gate:
‘To every man upon this earth Death cometh soon or late.
And how can man die better than facing fearful odds,
For the ashes of his fathers, and the temples of his Gods,
Horatius at the Bridge by Lord Macaulay

 

[regent]

I still remember pre-Pearl Harbor bars with signs in the window, "Please, No Dogs or Soldiers" so I take this hero stuff with a jaundiced eye. Or as Kipling said:

“In times of war, and not before,
God and the soldier men adore;
When the war is o’er and all things righted,
The Lord’s forgot and the soldier slighted.”

I think you're making that up, reggie....

According to snopes, no one has produced convincing evidence of such signs....

snopes.com: Keep Off the Grass


How do you like this verse...


Then out spoke brave Horatius, the Captain of the Gate:
‘To every man upon this earth Death cometh soon or late.
And how can man die better than facing fearful odds,
For the ashes of his fathers, and the temples of his Gods,
Horatius at the Bridge by Lord Macaulay

Many small towns suddenly found themselves in a sea of soldiers from the new army camps erected almost overnight. Surely the townspeople's way of life was distrupted, and girls were warned and it became somewhat messy. Think of the few neighborhood bars now on a weekend when soldiers on pass came in to enjoy a little revelry. The signs were there. Surely there are some pictures someplace.
But one incident I remember written up in Yank, American GI's refused admittance to restaurants because of their skin color but inside were German POW's eating away.
I like the poem but it doesn't change my lack of heroism.

 

[Polk]

I still remember pre-Pearl Harbor bars with signs in the window, "Please, No Dogs or Soldiers" so I take this hero stuff with a jaundiced eye. Or as Kipling said:

“In times of war, and not before,
God and the soldier men adore;
When the war is o’er and all things righted,
The Lord’s forgot and the soldier slighted.”

I think you're making that up, reggie....

According to snopes, no one has produced convincing evidence of such signs....

snopes.com: Keep Off the Grass


How do you like this verse...


Then out spoke brave Horatius, the Captain of the Gate:
‘To every man upon this earth Death cometh soon or late.
And how can man die better than facing fearful odds,
For the ashes of his fathers, and the temples of his Gods,
Horatius at the Bridge by Lord Macaulay

No one has produced evidence of people spitting on soldiers, but you keep trotting that one out.

 

[PoliticalChic]

I still remember pre-Pearl Harbor bars with signs in the window, "Please, No Dogs or Soldiers" so I take this hero stuff with a jaundiced eye. Or as Kipling said:

“In times of war, and not before,
God and the soldier men adore;
When the war is o’er and all things righted,
The Lord’s forgot and the soldier slighted.”

I think you're making that up, reggie....

According to snopes, no one has produced convincing evidence of such signs....

snopes.com: Keep Off the Grass


How do you like this verse...


Then out spoke brave Horatius, the Captain of the Gate:
‘To every man upon this earth Death cometh soon or late.
And how can man die better than facing fearful odds,
For the ashes of his fathers, and the temples of his Gods,
Horatius at the Bridge by Lord Macaulay

No one has produced evidence of people spitting on soldiers, but you keep trotting that one out.

"Through a complicated set of circumstances, when he was at Fort Bragg prior to going to Vietnam, he was befriended by Staff Sergeant Barry Sadler and helped produce the iconic pro-soldier anthem, "The Ballad of the Green Berets." When he returned, the song had become the number one song in America.

A Boston radio talk show invited him as a guest. Poison and invective came in from one of the callers, "If you weren't killing babies in Vietnam, you'd be killing them here," she hissed. Although she was unable to spit directly on him, the call was the verbal equivalent.

Across the breakfast table from me sat Rudy Loupias. Rudy fought in the 2nd Battalion, 4th Marines at Dai Do in 1968. Little known to the public and recognized by historians as the Battle of Dong Ha, this pitched fight saw brutal combat, sometimes hand-to-hand.

The American people were in no mood to support Rudy when he came back from Vietnam. When he returned, he kept his personal history quiet. "I didn't reveal I was a Vietnam veteran because they labeled us as ‘baby killers,'" he recalls. "Even at parties nobody knew I was a Vietnam veteran."

Rudy thinks the public should treat soldiers the way they did after the first Iraq war. "It's too bad you had to feel that way — the hurt," he says. He didn't tell me anything about being spit on, but the pain in his voice says enough."
Spitting on Veterans - The New York Sun



This is a pretty well written exposition of the point....and, if you are correct that the actual expectoration didn't occur, are you prepared to claim that the attitude that led to the belief that it did, didn't exist?

Based on the above, does it not make the point that the OP makes?

 

[JoeB131]

If anyone wants more proof that Political Chick is crazy...

To this day they rail against the hero Senator McCarthy, and, without the evidence of the Venona Files, would still deny that Hiss, the Rosenbergs, et.al. were paid agents of the Soviet Union.

Seriously?

First, Nixon was the guy who brought down Hiss, and the Rosenbergs were brought down by Roy Cohn. (And it's still questionable how much Ethel was involved.)

McCarthy went after a lot of people who just happened to be Communists, and few who weren't, and most of them were innocent, and it was his fellow Republicans who slapped him down, and rightfully so. He attacked decorated veterans and career State Department officials.

Seriously, what kind of Right Wing Home Skule are you learning this crap in?

 

[PoliticalChic]

If anyone wants more proof that Political Chick is crazy...

To this day they rail against the hero Senator McCarthy, and, without the evidence of the Venona Files, would still deny that Hiss, the Rosenbergs, et.al. were paid agents of the Soviet Union.

Seriously?

First, Nixon was the guy who brought down Hiss, and the Rosenbergs were brought down by Roy Cohn. (And it's still questionable how much Ethel was involved.)

McCarthy went after a lot of people who just happened to be Communists, and few who weren't, and most of them were innocent, and it was his fellow Republicans who slapped him down, and rightfully so. He attacked decorated veterans and career State Department officials.

Seriously, what kind of Right Wing Home Skule are you learning this crap in?

Can you name some folks who weren't communists, who were harmed by Senator McCarthy.

'Cause, if you can't, then you sound, as you usually do, like you're just making stuff up....

...or mouthing the Left-wing party line.

True, Erroneous Joe?

 

[Mr. Shaman]

One of my Left-wing buddies posted this in a recent thread:
"War and violence is fine with wingnuts so long as they don't have to fight it. Killing is fine and justified because you are scared. Hypocrite thy name is right wing conservative apologist for murder and death."

I thought the idea worthy of a deeper analysis....

No doubt......​

Those FIGHTIN' NeoCons!!!!!​

[ame]www.youtube.com/watch?v=io6lRzz1JVw[/ame]


*

(.....and, the New Generation.......)


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFGit_tZDqs]Generation Chickenhawk: With The College Republicans - YouTube[/ame]
*
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8utu48qhO9E]Republican Chickenhawk gets a Force Feed on Reality by Micheal Ware. - YouTube[/ame]​

 

[PoliticalChic]

If anyone wants more proof that Political Chick is crazy...

To this day they rail against the hero Senator McCarthy, and, without the evidence of the Venona Files, would still deny that Hiss, the Rosenbergs, et.al. were paid agents of the Soviet Union.

Seriously?

First, Nixon was the guy who brought down Hiss, and the Rosenbergs were brought down by Roy Cohn. (And it's still questionable how much Ethel was involved.)

McCarthy went after a lot of people who just happened to be Communists, and few who weren't, and most of them were innocent, and it was his fellow Republicans who slapped him down, and rightfully so. He attacked decorated veterans and career State Department officials.

Seriously, what kind of Right Wing Home Skule are you learning this crap in?

Can you name some folks who weren't communists, who were harmed by Senator McCarthy.

'Cause, if you can't, then you sound, as you usually do, like you're just making stuff up....

...or mouthing the Left-wing party line.

True, Erroneous Joe?

Can you name some folks who weren't communists, who were harmed by Senator McCarthy.


Ode to a Fraud...

Oh, no...
Erroneous Joe!
Challenged on facts...
And away he go!

 

[NYcarbineer]

Note to Thing-1 and Thing-2...

I merely left it up to carby to claim that either he is a hero or he is not.

Read more carefully.

No, you heaped scorn wrath and ridicule on anyone who might be uncomfortable calling me a hero, which I skillfully demonstrated, included YOU.

So in effect you're your own harshest critic, and a kindred spirit of Chris Hayes to boot.

This was post #71:
"As far as being a hero...well, you might be the best judge."


You should read more carefully.

Now, where is your apology?

Or...are you a Liberal?

I asked you if I was a hero because I'm a veteran. You could not bring yourself to say yes,

and yet you attack someone like Chris Hayes for being reluctant to call veterans heroes.

You're two peas in a pod.

The relevant difference here between you and me is that I've served my country and you haven't.

Not only have you not served your country, not only will you not call those of us who have 'heroes',

but you don't even want to pay the bill for those who serve.

You're that particularly unpleasant concoction of a veneer of sanctimonious chest thumping pseudo-patriotic bluster,

hiding a selfish anti-American heart.

 

[NYcarbineer]

That's a major philosophical difference. Are humans pure from the beginning or flawed from the beginning?

And what, if anything, does political stance, (left or right) have to do with morality?

What I can see is different with me and some other people morally, is that some believe man is inherently evil whereas I believe in essential goodness.

Also, there is difference between people who are moral absolutist and those who aren't.

Buddhists have precepts to follow, and one is not to kill. Nonetheless, a moral absolutist would say a woman should NEVER have an abortion, even if her life is in danger. A moral relativist would say, that while killing is wrong, letting a woman die so the fetus can be born may not be wise.

There is always the consideration of wisdom. It is not just rules, but how the rules are applied.

Non-violence as a moral value. That would mean favoring non-violent resistance for social change as demonstrated by Gandhi and MLK. The essential question of the OP has to do with moral absolutism, which the OP identifies with the right, her side. Whereas, moral relativism, would allow someone to see the evil in Bush starting a war without good cause. We may differ in what we consider a greater evil.

1. Non-violence falls victim to the 'law of the jungle' unless there are folks who recognize, confront, and use violence to protect the weak, such as you.

a. "People Sleep Peacefully in Their Beds at Night Only Because Rough Men Stand Ready to Do Violence on Their Behalf."
Attributed to Churchill

2. Human nature is hardly "good" anymore than any other animal's nature is good.
I recommend you pick up a copy of Desmond Morris's "The Naked Ape."

3. The difference is that the Creator has given intelligence to mankind, not granted to other living things.
Based on this intelligence, we are able to set up government based on checks and balances so as to restrain human nature.
Liberals have yet to understand this....
...see Ms. Truthie's posts.

4. Gandhi and MLK?
I hope you have merely overlooked the author of "On Civil Disobedience," the American author Henry David Thoreau...1849.
You haven't read it?

The silliness you suggest in "Non-violence as a moral value" must be based on the opponent against which you attempt to use 'non-violence' or civil disobedience....

Gandhi faced the civilized British. European Jewry faced the barbaric Nazis.

Get a grip.

Why can't you identify to us the 'left' that you're talking about?

Everyone knows there's a tiny percentage of the American population, or the human population for that matter,

who are pacifists to an extreme. Our own system even provides for conscientious objection exemptions in times of wars.

As we see, PC cannot put faces and names on the 'pacifists' this thread is ranting against,

despite the claim that this sort of pacifism is broadbased enough on the left that it qualifies as a common characteristic.

 

[PoliticalChic]

No, you heaped scorn wrath and ridicule on anyone who might be uncomfortable calling me a hero, which I skillfully demonstrated, included YOU.

So in effect you're your own harshest critic, and a kindred spirit of Chris Hayes to boot.

This was post #71:
"As far as being a hero...well, you might be the best judge."


You should read more carefully.

Now, where is your apology?

Or...are you a Liberal?

I asked you if I was a hero because I'm a veteran. You could not bring yourself to say yes,

and yet you attack someone like Chris Hayes for being reluctant to call veterans heroes.

You're two peas in a pod.

The relevant difference here between you and me is that I've served my country and you haven't.

Not only have you not served your country, not only will you not call those of us who have 'heroes',

but you don't even want to pay the bill for those who serve.

You're that particularly unpleasant concoction of a veneer of sanctimonious chest thumping pseudo-patriotic bluster,

hiding a selfish anti-American heart.

1. "You could not bring yourself to say yes,..."
Spin.
I clearly stated that you would be the best judge of same.
Here, again: "As far as being a hero...well, you might be the best judge."
This is your classless attempt to avoid the apology that you should be making.


2. "...you attack someone like Chris Hayes for being reluctant to call veterans heroes."
No I didn't.
Your mis-perception is based on your oft-exposed limitations.
Chris Hayes' comment was provided as evidence to support the OP....which it did.


3. The rest of your flimsy post is an attempt to cloud the issue: you made a mistake, and have refused to take responsibility for same.
Not unusual.
Nor a surprise.
It is to be expected from one of your character, and political persuasion.

 

[NYcarbineer]

This was post #71:
"As far as being a hero...well, you might be the best judge."


You should read more carefully.

Now, where is your apology?

Or...are you a Liberal?

I asked you if I was a hero because I'm a veteran. You could not bring yourself to say yes,

and yet you attack someone like Chris Hayes for being reluctant to call veterans heroes.

You're two peas in a pod.

The relevant difference here between you and me is that I've served my country and you haven't.

Not only have you not served your country, not only will you not call those of us who have 'heroes',

but you don't even want to pay the bill for those who serve.

You're that particularly unpleasant concoction of a veneer of sanctimonious chest thumping pseudo-patriotic bluster,

hiding a selfish anti-American heart.

1. "You could not bring yourself to say yes,..."
Spin.
I clearly stated that you would be the best judge of same.
Here, again: "As far as being a hero...well, you might be the best judge."
This is your classless attempt to avoid the apology that you should be making.


2. "...you attack someone like Chris Hayes for being reluctant to call veterans heroes."
No I didn't.
Your mis-perception is based on your oft-exposed limitations.
Chris Hayes' comment was provided as evidence to support the OP....which it did.


3. The rest of your flimsy post is an attempt to cloud the issue: you made a mistake, and have refused to take responsibility for same.
Not unusual.
Nor a surprise.
It is to be expected from one of your character, and political persuasion.

You're pathetic.

If Chris Hayes had said (echoing your sentiments EXACTLY) that it wasn't up to him to call veterans 'heroes',

because it was up them to decide whether they're heroes or not,

the uproar would have been even greater than it was.

 

[midcan5]

Having run through many airports - military flew standby - and having numerous friends and neighbors serving during Nam, I never heard of the spitting tale till many years later. Everyone was friendly and helpful as we drug our duffle bags from airline to airline looking for a way home or a way back. One ex-soldier turned student of history, was unable to find anyone who experienced spitting. Did it happen maybe but nuts are everywhere - consider only PC's morbid preoccupation with her bogeyman.

As far as love for soldiers, that was a issue in many places. Parents do not appreciate lonely men from out of town milling about. Pretty simple really. And the states were worse than some overseas locals.

PC leads a sad existence, I wish her ten kids all rebellious, that'll cure her.