PA Trial Court Halts Certification: Finds the Election Unconstitutional

meaner gene

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Clearly the PA Constitution was violated. Sad that liberal morons probably just got all those votes tossed, but what else can be done?
The only remedy as I understand is that the legislatures decides the outcome.
Wrong.

The judge said there are several possible remedies, and that isn’t one of them.

Understand what you are arguing. It’s not just the Presidential election in PA that is under question. It is the entire election in PA that is under question. Everything.

Note also that in court, the plaintiffs will be asked “You knew about this for months. Why are you filing this complaint now?” If they were concerned about the constitutionality of the election, why are they filing it three weeks after the election?

The reason, of course, is because they lost. But they won’t say that. This means the judges will be under pressure to disenfranchise hundreds of thousands of people, which they will be loathe to do.

So the odds of this actually happening are low.
Since this came up "after" the election, where it would similarly invalidate their primary elections, carried out under the same unconstitutional rules.

There is an issue of "severability", where they may seek to throw out some of the votes (those done under the unconstitutional law) while retaining others. But this scheme may not be available, because like with many cases, if some of the rules under which something happened, they don't recalculate, but instead invalidate the entire event.

If the case goes to its logical conclusion, the PA primary elections, and the PA general election is thrown out. And the whole thing has to be rescheduled.
 

meaner gene

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And the remedy sought is to deprive people their rights who had nothing to do with “illegally” changing the laws.
That is true but unfortunate. It is no different from if the state government doesn't apply to FEMA for emergency aid, the people are cheated out of that too.

Government errors inevitably screw the people.
 

Toro

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Since this came up "after" the election, where it would similarly invalidate their primary elections, carried out under the same unconstitutional rules.

There is an issue of "severability", where they may seek to throw out some of the votes (those done under the unconstitutional law) while retaining others. But this scheme may not be available, because like with many cases, if some of the rules under which something happened, they don't recalculate, but instead invalidate the entire event.

If the case goes to its logical conclusion, the PA primary elections, and the PA general election is thrown out. And the whole thing has to be rescheduled.
meaner gene

Do you think the outcome of the case would have been different had the challenge come shortly after the law was passed, so that if found unconstitutional, the remedy would have meant redesigning the election within enough time before the election?

The problem that I see it is that invalidating this election 10 days before the selection of electors becomes a mechanism for any candidate who lost a race - Republican or Democrat - to use this as a way to invalidate their loss, ie have a get out of jail free card. IOW I win, great - I lose, it doesn't count and I get a do-over.
 

meaner gene

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The remedy the courts will give is not going to be to throw out votes en masse....

They need the legislature to do that, and the PA legislature is only willing to bitch and moan at the moment

There is no hope of a court flipping these results. They won't.

Only the state legislatures and the senate would contemplate it. A judges role is not to throw out election results, they would make a ruling for next time.....
Actually the only thing the judge can do is to throw out the entire election, lock stock and barrell, everything voted on under the unconstitutional rule, including the PA primary elections.

This is a real constitutional crisis for PA, since that means their state house disappears after November 30th, along with half the state senate.

Those positions were similarly invalidated because of the unconstitutional election scheme they were held under.
 

meaner gene

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If this makes it through the next judicial level, the entire Pennsylvania election will become null and void.
The problem with that is, it also invalidates the state races, leaving Pennsylvania with only a partial legislature (25 state senators out of 50), who wouldn't have the power to enact any laws or remedies.
 

meaner gene

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Do you think the outcome of the case would have been different had the challenge come shortly after the law was passed, so that if found unconstitutional, the remedy would have meant redesigning the election within enough time before the election?
Absolutely. The law would be declared unconstitutional, and the state injoined from using it in any elections held after it's enactment.

The problem is that it was challenged so late. The problem is that the remedy is worse than the problem.
 

Juicin

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The remedy the courts will give is not going to be to throw out votes en masse....

They need the legislature to do that, and the PA legislature is only willing to bitch and moan at the moment

There is no hope of a court flipping these results. They won't.

Only the state legislatures and the senate would contemplate it. A judges role is not to throw out election results, they would make a ruling for next time.....
Actually the only thing the judge can do is to throw out the entire election, lock stock and barrell, everything voted on under the unconstitutional rule, including the PA primary elections.

This is a real constitutional crisis for PA, since that means their state house disappears after November 30th, along with half the state senate.

Those positions were similarly invalidated because of the unconstitutional election scheme they were held under.
They CAN, certainly the supreme court of PA could. But they won't

That's not how judges work

Just like they CAN buck the executive on national security, but they don't.

Delusional to think the courts will save you if you're republican. All they will do is give legal justification for the legislature. it's on the legislatures
 

meaner gene

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The problem that I see it is that invalidating this election 10 days before the selection of electors becomes a mechanism for any candidate who lost a race - Republican or Democrat - to use this as a way to invalidate their loss, ie have a get out of jail free card. IOW I win, great - I lose, it doesn't count and I get a do-over.
The problem is even worse.

Primary elections would be similarly thrown out.

The only parts of the elections that I can see surviving, are for positions where the person was virtually unopposed.
 

Turtlesoup

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Clearly the PA Constitution was violated. Sad that liberal morons probably just got all those votes tossed, but what else can be done?
The only remedy as I understand is that the legislatures decides the outcome.
I'm hoping that they have a recount and make everyone prove they are legal to vote-----I'd like to see what the vote really was based on a new election verses what the PA really claimed.
 

Juicin

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Clearly the PA Constitution was violated. Sad that liberal morons probably just got all those votes tossed, but what else can be done?
The only remedy as I understand is that the legislatures decides the outcome.
I'm hoping that they have a recount and make everyone prove they are legal to vote-----I'd like to see what the vote really was based on a new election verses what the PA really claimed.
This will not work, that will not be the legal systems remedy to just throw out the whole fucking election because they changed the rules illegally.

You'd have to do the whole fucking thing over, there is no fantasy world where mail in votes are thrown out but the rest stay in.

Most judges in high positions are not even elected they will not do this, they will leave it to the legislature, it's clearly their job
 

meaner gene

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This is a real constitutional crisis for PA, since that means their state house disappears after November 30th, along with half the state senate.

Those positions were similarly invalidated because of the unconstitutional election scheme they were held under.
They CAN, certainly the supreme court of PA could. But they won't

That's not how judges work

Just like they CAN buck the executive on national security, but they don't.

Delusional to think the courts will save you if you're republican. All they will do is give legal justification for the legislature. it's on the legislatures
The courts are in an untenable position. They have to follow the law, and in this case the law points them over a cliff.
 

Juicin

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This is a real constitutional crisis for PA, since that means their state house disappears after November 30th, along with half the state senate.

Those positions were similarly invalidated because of the unconstitutional election scheme they were held under.
They CAN, certainly the supreme court of PA could. But they won't

That's not how judges work

Just like they CAN buck the executive on national security, but they don't.

Delusional to think the courts will save you if you're republican. All they will do is give legal justification for the legislature. it's on the legislatures
The courts are in an untenable position. They have to follow the law, and in this case the law points them over a cliff.
Yea they have to rule that it was unconstitutional

The remedy isn't going to be throw out the results

The remedy will be leave it to the legislature and not allow PA to do it next time.

THey are more likely to throw out ALL the votes, every single one, and force a re do of the whole thing than just throw out millions of mail in votes that lean towards one party.

But they aren't going to do any of that but say it was unconstitutional and give no real remedy for 2020. That's the easy path where no one can blame them. Would you want to be one of the judges who flips an election? No you wouldn't if you have sense
 

meaner gene

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I'm hoping that they have a recount and make everyone prove they are legal to vote-----I'd like to see what the vote really was based on a new election verses what the PA really claimed.
They can't do a recount, because the entire election is tainted. It was carried out under an unconstitutional scheme, which invalidates it in its entirety.

There is no way to save it.
 

colfax_m

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The remedy will be leave it to the legislature and not allow you to do it next time.
What legislature? Their term ends Monday and if the results are thrown out, there’s no one to replace them.
 

Juicin

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The courts are in an untenable position. They have to follow the law, and in this case the law points them over a cliff.
Or the PA SC could rule that mail-in ballots are constitutional.
They are constitutional.....

Just sending them out en masse isn't according to the way PA has enshrined the rules
 

meaner gene

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Most judges in high positions are not even elected they will not do this, they will leave it to the legislature, it's clearly their job
That's part of the problem. The legislature is what messed everything up. There may be no legislatire remedy available to fix it.
 

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