Our founding fathers were not conservative

[bigrebnc1775]

LIBERALS - believe in government action to achieve equal opportunity and equality for all. It is the duty of the government to alleviate social ills and to protect civil liberties and individual and human rights. Believe the role of the government should be to guarantee that no one is in need.

Liberal policies generally emphasize the need for the government to solve problems.

CONSERVATIVES - believe in personal responsibility, limited government, free markets, individual liberty, traditional American values and a strong national defense. Believe the role of government should be to provide people the freedom necessary to pursue their own goals.

Conservative policies generally emphasize empowerment of the individual to solve problems.
Conservative vs. Liberal Beliefs

Libertrian
Preamble
As Libertarians, we seek a world of liberty; a world in which all individuals are sovereign over their own lives and no one is forced to sacrifice his or her values for the benefit of others.

We believe that respect for individual rights is the essential precondition for a free and prosperous world, that force and fraud must be banished from human relationships, and that only through freedom can peace and prosperity be realized.

Consequently, we defend each person's right to engage in any activity that is peaceful and honest, and welcome the diversity that freedom brings. The world we seek to build is one where individuals are free to follow their own dreams in their own ways, without interference from government or any authoritarian power.

In the following pages we have set forth our basic principles and enumerated various policy stands derived from those principles.

These specific policies are not our goal, however. Our goal is nothing more nor less than a world set free in our lifetime, and it is to this end that we take these stands.

Platform | Libertarian Party

SORRY BUT THE FOUNDERS WERE NOTHING LIKE TODAYS LIBERALS.

 

[Baron]

CONSERVATIVE in political terms means clinging to the past way of doing things.

I can not see anything wrong here, what is problem? If conservatives want to make things according to their values, it is their Right to do it as they want.The are no proofs that lefties way is better.

 

[Contumacious]

The General Welfare Clause is NOT what you libbies seem to imagine it is.

You all seem to imagine (rather ignorantly at that) that the words of the PREAMBLE have the same force as what the Constitution then spells out. You don't even grasp the import of the term "preamble."

I am going by what Alexander Hamilton said about the matter in great detail, and I didn't mention the preamble, which further supports Art. 1. Sec. 8. But just confine your thoughts to Alexander Hamilton's clearly defined words, OK? Read his full intention of what General Welfare means, and you will be enlightened.

The phrase (Gen. Welfare) is as comprehensive as any that could have been used; because it was not fit that the constitutional authority of the Union, to appropriate its revenues shou'd have been restricted within narrower limits than the "General Welfare" and because this necessarily embraces a vast variety of particulars, which are susceptible neither of specification nor of definition.

It is therefore of necessity left to the discretion of the National Legislature, to pronounce, upon the objects, which concern the general Welfare, and for which under that description, an appropriation of money is requisite and proper. And there seems to be no room for a doubt that whatever concerns the general Interests of learning of Agriculture of Manufactures and of Commerce are within the sphere of the national Councils as far as regards an application of Money.

( Article 1, Section 8, Clause 1: Alexander Hamilton, Report on Manufactures )

---------------

Ok? Now do you have a better undertsanding of what the Founding Fathers were thinking when they signed on?

Alexander Hamilton, the monarchist who wanted America to have its own king and was shunted off into the Treasury by the other Founding Fathers because they disagreed so profoundly with him, is supposed to be accepted, wholly and all by himself, as the final word on what the entirety of the Founding Fathers wanted and intended?

You're even dumber than I thought you were, which I would have thought would require a rewriting of the laws of physics and anatomy.

Yes, indeed. You are absolutely correct:

"Congress had not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare, but was restrained to those specifically enumerated, "

James Madison

.

 

[JakeStarkey]

We are a nation with a secular charter of laws founded on religious and ethical values.

We defer to the Constitution in our secular world.

We defer to our values in matters of spiritual, ethical, and religious concerns.

We are a nation of Christians, not a Christian nation.

 

[jillian]

there, I said it. Feel free to prove me wrong with empirical fact. go on

I prove you wrong:

U.S. founded as Christian nation

posting religious rightwingnut BS is not PROOF of anything except for the OPINION of religious rightwingnuts.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

We are a nation with a secular charter of laws founded on religious and ethical values.

We defer to the Constitution in our secular world.

We defer to our values in matters of spiritual, ethical, and religious concerns.

We are a nation of Christians, not a Christian nation.

Jake why do you flip flop on an issue?

 

[editec]

LIBERALS - believe in government action to achieve equal opportunity and equality for all. It is the duty of the government to alleviate social ills and to protect civil liberties and individual and human rights. Believe the role of the government should be to guarantee that no one is in need.

Liberal policies generally emphasize the need for the government to solve problems.

CONSERVATIVES - believe in personal responsibility, limited government, free markets, individual liberty, traditional American values and a strong national defense. Believe the role of government should be to provide people the freedom necessary to pursue their own goals.

Conservative policies generally emphasize empowerment of the individual to solve problems.
Conservative vs. Liberal Beliefs

Libertrian
Preamble
As Libertarians, we seek a world of liberty; a world in which all individuals are sovereign over their own lives and no one is forced to sacrifice his or her values for the benefit of others.

We believe that respect for individual rights is the essential precondition for a free and prosperous world, that force and fraud must be banished from human relationships, and that only through freedom can peace and prosperity be realized.

Consequently, we defend each person's right to engage in any activity that is peaceful and honest, and welcome the diversity that freedom brings. The world we seek to build is one where individuals are free to follow their own dreams in their own ways, without interference from government or any authoritarian power.

In the following pages we have set forth our basic principles and enumerated various policy stands derived from those principles.

These specific policies are not our goal, however. Our goal is nothing more nor less than a world set free in our lifetime, and it is to this end that we take these stands.

Platform | Libertarian Party

SORRY BUT THE FOUNDERS WERE NOTHING LIKE TODAYS LIBERALS.

Oh, I agree to that, without doubt.

Likewise, they were nothing like today's conservatives.

Trying to apply today's misinformed ideas of what those words actaully mean to the floundering fathers is a waste of time that partisans of both POVs seem to really enjoy.

This goofy debate is a kind of partisan political science circle jerk.

 

[Affrayer]

WHY do you want standing armies?!?!?!?!

Simple, on the battle field they completely out perform the "gentleman" militia envisioned by the framers of the Constitution.

 

[Contumacious]

WHY do you want standing armies?!?!?!?!

Simple, on the battle field they completely out perform the "gentleman" militia envisioned by the framers of the Constitution.

And of course they readily provide the means for warmongers to constantly create domestic and international battlefields. Just because they can.

.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

LIBERALS - believe in government action to achieve equal opportunity and equality for all. It is the duty of the government to alleviate social ills and to protect civil liberties and individual and human rights. Believe the role of the government should be to guarantee that no one is in need.

Liberal policies generally emphasize the need for the government to solve problems.

CONSERVATIVES - believe in personal responsibility, limited government, free markets, individual liberty, traditional American values and a strong national defense. Believe the role of government should be to provide people the freedom necessary to pursue their own goals.

Conservative policies generally emphasize empowerment of the individual to solve problems.
Conservative vs. Liberal Beliefs

Libertrian
Preamble
As Libertarians, we seek a world of liberty; a world in which all individuals are sovereign over their own lives and no one is forced to sacrifice his or her values for the benefit of others.

We believe that respect for individual rights is the essential precondition for a free and prosperous world, that force and fraud must be banished from human relationships, and that only through freedom can peace and prosperity be realized.

Consequently, we defend each person's right to engage in any activity that is peaceful and honest, and welcome the diversity that freedom brings. The world we seek to build is one where individuals are free to follow their own dreams in their own ways, without interference from government or any authoritarian power.

In the following pages we have set forth our basic principles and enumerated various policy stands derived from those principles.

These specific policies are not our goal, however. Our goal is nothing more nor less than a world set free in our lifetime, and it is to this end that we take these stands.

Platform | Libertarian Party

SORRY BUT THE FOUNDERS WERE NOTHING LIKE TODAYS LIBERALS.

Oh, I agree to that, without doubt.

Likewise, they were nothing like today's conservatives.

Trying to apply today's misinformed ideas of what those words actaully mean to the floundering fathers is a waste of time that partisans of both POVs seem to really enjoy.

This goofy debate is a kind of partisan political science circle jerk.

The founders were nothing like todays liberals conservative, but I think conservatives are trying to get back to the princples of the founders. Which is the point of this discussion for most.

 

[Intense]

They should have already known that.


Steuben at Valley Forge
Rather than a professional army Steuben found a collection of detachments gathered from all the colonies made up of citizen soldiers with no uniform system of training or drilling. Discipline was administered by physical punishment that included flogging, caning, and hanging men up by their thumbs. In addition the army was so low on basic supplies that many men slept sitting up by campfires for lack of warm blankets.

Steuben recognized the need to mold the soldiers into a cohesive fighting force and quickly set to work making military discipline his number one priority. He installed a simplified battle drill for all the regiments which taught the men to march, load and fire muskets, charge with bayonets, and general battlefield conduct. He instructed the men in military methods he’d learned in Prussia that included maneuvering in columns and fighting in lines rapidly with maximum firepower.

Steuben instilled a sense of esprit de corps while doing away with physical punishment opting instead for a bond of loyalty and trust between soldiers and officers. In his training manual, the “Blue Book” which would continue to be used by the US military until the Civil War, Steuben even spoke of love between those serving in military units.



Read more at Suite101: Baron Von Steuben at Valley Forge: The Prussian Mercenary Who Transformed the Continental Army Baron Von Steuben at Valley Forge: The Prussian Mercenary Who Transformed the Continental Army

 

[hipeter924]

there, I said it. Feel free to prove me wrong with empirical fact. go on

I prove you wrong:

U.S. founded as Christian nation

posting religious rightwingnut BS is not PROOF of anything except for the OPINION of religious rightwingnuts.

They will keep saying it till the messiah returns, but if he did he probably wouldn't accept them as his followers, something about "Thou shall not steal".

 

[JakeStarkey]

We are a nation with a secular charter of laws founded on religious and ethical values.

We defer to the Constitution in our secular world.

We defer to our values in matters of spiritual, ethical, and religious concerns.

We are a nation of Christians, not a Christian nation.

Jake why do you flip flop on an issue?

I have always stated this, and you will find no place where I have said differently. You are welcome to disagree.

 

[Intense]

I prove you wrong:

U.S. founded as Christian nation

posting religious rightwingnut BS is not PROOF of anything except for the OPINION of religious rightwingnuts.

They will keep saying it till the messiah returns, but if he did he probably wouldn't accept them as his followers, something about "Thou shall not steal".

In truth we were founded greatly on Locke's Principles, which are Christian, and Separate Church and State. Separation of Church and State is a Christian Principle. You know that, right? Let me show you.....

Luke 20:19 And the chief priests and the scribes the same hour sought to lay hands on him; and they feared the people: for they perceived that he had spoken this parable against them.



20:20 And they watched him, and sent forth spies, which should feign themselves just men, that they might take hold of his words, that so they might deliver him unto the power and authority of the governor.



20:21 And they asked him, saying, Master, we know that thou sayest and teachest rightly, neither acceptest thou the person of any, but teachest the way of God truly:



20:22 Is it lawful for us to give tribute unto Caesar, or no?



20:23 But he perceived their craftiness, and said unto them, Why tempt ye me?



20:24 Shew me a penny. Whose image and superscription hath it? They answered and said, Caesar's.



20:25 And he said unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which be Caesar's, and unto God the things which be God's.

The Holy Bible

 

[JakeStarkey]

Hipeter, the scene will probably be the one where He states, "You failed to do it to the least of mine." When you fulfill the 2nd Great Commandment, you are fulfilling the first.

 

[Intense]

Hipeter, the scene will probably be the one where He states, "You failed to do it to the least of mine." When you fulfill the 2nd Great Commandment, you are fulfilling the first.

Something we all should remember about the final judgement, is that one thing is is not about is pointing fingers.

 

[JakeStarkey]

'cause we have four pointing back at us. I know, Intense, but pointing others' inconsistencies is so much more fun than pointing out mine.

 

[AVG-JOE]

there, I said it. Feel free to prove me wrong with empirical fact. go on

I prove you wrong:

U.S. founded as Christian nation
By David L. Shelley, pastor, East Athens Baptist Church

Published November 6, 2003



Sir: There has been no small commotion, in recent years, as to the constitutionality of Christian symbols and citations of Scripture in government owned facilities. Rising from the debate are cries that the U. S. Constitution requires a "separation of church and state" - a Jeffersonian phrase not found in the Declaration of Independence nor the U. S. Constitution.

This separation theme is often interpreted to mean that American government should be devoid of any references to religion. Most recently, there has ensued a judicial battle over such things as the appearance of the Old Testament Decalogue, or the Ten Commandments, in government-owned courthouses and the statement, "One nation under God," as recited in the Pledge of Allegiance. Those who oppose such religious symbolism state that these are inherently "unconstitutional" and should thereby be stricken from the government landscape.

If this reasoning is carried to its logical conclusions, we would eventually remove "In God We Trust" from our nation's currency, cease the more than 200 year tradition of having prayers said in Congress, and ultimately deface the architecture of most federal buildings in Washington, D.C. - for, even the U. S. Supreme Court building contains an artistic rendering of the Ten Commandments.

At the heart of this matter, the question arises, "Was America founded as a Christian nation?" The answer to that question is impeccably clear.

Of the 55 colonial delegates to the Constitutional Convention of 1787, 52 (or 94.5%) were members of Christian churches. Contrary to the widespread misinformation about the prevalence of Deism among the framers, only 3 of the delegates considered themselves to be such (merely 5.5%).

One can ascertain the worldview of the framers of the Constitution by reading their writings. Research in a 1984 article appearing in the American Political Science Review detailed a study of over 17,000 written works by the framers during the era of the late 1700s.

One might conclude that the sources quoted by these writers would indicate the books that they were reading. Did you know that of the quotations from other works that the framers cited in their writings, 34% came from the Bible? The two most often-cited, non-biblical, writers were Baron Charles Montesquieu and Sir William Blackstone: two European legal writers with clearly biblical views of law and government.

If this is not convincing proof that America was founded as a Christian nation, consider the following statements written by the framers themselves:

ï George Washington wrote, "It is impossible rightly to govern the world without God and the Bible."

ï Patrick Henry, who must have known that one day Americans would doubt the Christian foundation of the nation, wrote, "It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here."

ï James Madison, who must have known that one day Americans might question the constitutionality of the Ten Commandments in the federal milieu, stated, "We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all our political institutions upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God."

Let there be no doubt about it; America was founded by Christians and the U. S. Constitution was based upon the eternal laws of God as revealed in the Bible. To think that the Ten Commandments are not historically relevant to the foundations of the American legal system is preposterous.

America may not act like much of a Christian nation today, but it certainly was when our founding documents were written. As our founding father, John Adams, said, "The Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate for the government of any other."

If Americans remove God from the federal infrastructure, we will only be destroying the very foundation upon which this nation was built.

U.S. founded as Christian nation

"Christian" does not equate to "Conservative" any more than "Atheist" equates to "Liberal"

Try again.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/educa...th-conservatism-america-was-born-liberal.html

 

[AVG-JOE]

CONSERVATIVE in political terms means clinging to the past way of doing things.

If you happened to live in a world where most of the world's governments were run by MONACHIES then creating a government based on such a RADICALLY LIBERAL notion as a government for of and by the PEOPLE?

You were not REMOTELY conservative for YOUR TIME.

This debate is so utterly silly.

What isn't silly, though, is that some of you people actually BELIEVE that YOUR DEFINITION of the words liberal and conservative -- that pure load of nothing but partisan blather that passes as serious political science in places like these, is believed by millions of clueless American know-nothings.

Speaking as a political scientist by training, I'm here to tell some of you that everything you think you know about poli-sci is wrong, wrong, wrong.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to editec again.

Bummer!

 

[AVG-JOE]

LIBERALS - believe in government action to achieve equal opportunity and equality for all. It is the duty of the government to alleviate social ills and to protect civil liberties and individual and human rights. Believe the role of the government should be to guarantee that no one is in need.

Liberal policies generally emphasize the need for the government to solve problems.

CONSERVATIVES - believe in personal responsibility, limited government, free markets, individual liberty, traditional American values and a strong national defense. Believe the role of government should be to provide people the freedom necessary to pursue their own goals.

Conservative policies generally emphasize empowerment of the individual to solve problems.
Conservative vs. Liberal Beliefs

Libertrian
Preamble
As Libertarians, we seek a world of liberty; a world in which all individuals are sovereign over their own lives and no one is forced to sacrifice his or her values for the benefit of others.

We believe that respect for individual rights is the essential precondition for a free and prosperous world, that force and fraud must be banished from human relationships, and that only through freedom can peace and prosperity be realized.

Consequently, we defend each person's right to engage in any activity that is peaceful and honest, and welcome the diversity that freedom brings. The world we seek to build is one where individuals are free to follow their own dreams in their own ways, without interference from government or any authoritarian power.

In the following pages we have set forth our basic principles and enumerated various policy stands derived from those principles.

These specific policies are not our goal, however. Our goal is nothing more nor less than a world set free in our lifetime, and it is to this end that we take these stands.

Platform | Libertarian Party

SORRY BUT THE FOUNDERS WERE NOTHING LIKE TODAYS LIBERALS.

Oh, I agree to that, without doubt.

Likewise, they were nothing like today's conservatives.

Trying to apply today's misinformed ideas of what those words actaully mean to the floundering fathers is a waste of time that partisans of both POVs seem to really enjoy.

This goofy debate is a kind of partisan political science circle jerk.

Follow the money.

The more we argue over the labels assigned to us and the legislation of hard choices like marriage and abortion, that we should each be deciding in the privacy of our own minds, the less time we spend talking about fair taxes and building community infrastructure.

The haves win again. Propaganda is a POWERFUL tool.

Chumps. Every ******* one of us.