Our founding fathers were not conservative

Not correct. The Constitution and the laws passed pursuant to the Constitution...
You dont even need to go that far.
The Union was created by the states.
The states have the plenary power to dissolve the Union, in toto, at any time they so choose.
The Union, therefore, exists at the pleasure of the states; the reverse is not true.

Thus, the states are, ultimately, sovereign.
 
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Nope, look up the various types of federalism, then go read Jefferson and Madison more carefully. The Union is supreme: always was, always will be.

Not correct. The Constitution and the laws passed pursuant to the Constitution are Supreme. But that reference is with regard to possible conflicting laws. For example, let's say that New Jersey has passed a Law on Issue A. New York has a different Law on Issue A. Then, if passed pursuant to the authorities granted by the Constitution, The United States has a Law on Issue A. In case of conflict, the U.S. Law controls.

That doesn't make the Federal Government, the "Union" supreme. It makes the laws passed by the U.S. Government (if passed pursuant to the Constitutional grants of authorities and within those limitations) supreme.

The fact of the matter is clear: if a Federal law is passed OUTSIDE of the authority granted by the Constitution, it is NOT Supreme. It is, in fact, void in that case.

There's a clue inherent in that fact. It tells all of us who bother to pay attention that the Union was formed BY the States which ceded SOME of their sovereignty to the newly crafted Federal Government ONLY UPON CONDITIONS. Those conditions included the guaranteed, written LIMITATIONS on the authority of the U.S. Government. When the Federal Government acts outside of the bounds of that set of limitations, it acts without the authority of the States that created it. And, if the circumstances arise, the same State governments that agreed to cede some of their sovereignty to the Union can also withdraw that grant and terminate the relationship.

THAT is the way it always was. It is the way it always should be. The Acts of the Union at the time of the Civil War do not establish that the States have ever stipulated any change to that framework.

According to the Constitution, a conflict of laws inherently recognizes federal supremacy. States, however, can sue and the SCOTUS can determine in the state's favor. THAT is the way it always was. It is the way it always should be.
 
Your argument is vague at best, and has been clearly refuted by the guy who designed the document.

"Site" means a "place" or a "location", which is exactly what I mean above.

"Cite" means provenance of the work itself.

Learn your terms and how they are used.

When you meet your burden of proof, we will talk again.

Right now, you have fail.

Intense, a Federalist paper quote is secondary to a quote from Madison right in the middle of the 1832-1833 secession issue. Your quote is theory, while Madison's quote is literal, within the context of real time play of the issues.

Idiot you don't know the difference between cite and site.
 
Not correct. The Constitution and the laws passed pursuant to the Constitution...
You dont even need to go that far.
The Union was created by the states.
The states have the plenary power to dissolve the Union, in toto, at any time they so choose.
The Union, therefore, exists at the pleasure of the states; the reverse is not true.

Thus, the states are, ultimately, sovereign.

Very good I imagine your civics teacher would be proud o you.
 
Not correct. The Constitution and the laws passed pursuant to the Constitution...
You dont even need to go that far.
The Union was created by the states.
The states have the plenary power to dissolve the Union, in toto, at any time they so choose.
The Union, therefore, exists at the pleasure of the states; the reverse is not true.
Thus, the states are, ultimately, sovereign.
Very good I imagine your civics teacher would be proud o you.
I haven't had a civics teach that taught anything I didn't already know.
This compares to -some- people here, who apparently haven't had a civics teacher at all.
 
Your argument is vague at best, and has been clearly refuted by the guy who designed the document.

"Site" means a "place" or a "location", which is exactly what I mean above.

"Cite" means provenance of the work itself.

Learn your terms and how they are used.

When you meet your burden of proof, we will talk again.

Right now, you have fail.

Intense, a Federalist paper quote is secondary to a quote from Madison right in the middle of the 1832-1833 secession issue. Your quote is theory, while Madison's quote is literal, within the context of real time play of the issues.

Federalist #46 was Written by Madison and the Principle is General. :lol: Madison did not suffer Tyrants well. Do do realize that he was the Author of the Virginia Resolution. Would you like me to Post that as well? :lol:
 
You dont even need to go that far.
The Union was created by the states.
The states have the plenary power to dissolve the Union, in toto, at any time they so choose.
The Union, therefore, exists at the pleasure of the states; the reverse is not true.
Thus, the states are, ultimately, sovereign.
Very good I imagine your civics teacher would be proud o you.
I haven't had a civics teach that taught anything I didn't already know.
This compares to -some- people here, who apparently haven't had a civics teacher at all.

I meant it as a compliment.
 
Your argument is vague at best, and has been clearly refuted by the guy who designed the document.

"Site" means a "place" or a "location", which is exactly what I mean above.

"Cite" means provenance of the work itself.

Learn your terms and how they are used.

When you meet your burden of proof, we will talk again.

Right now, you have fail.

Intense, a Federalist paper quote is secondary to a quote from Madison right in the middle of the 1832-1833 secession issue. Your quote is theory, while Madison's quote is literal, within the context of real time play of the issues.

Federalist #46 was Written by Madison and the Principle is General. :lol: Madison did not suffer Tyrants well. Do do realize that he was the Author of the Virginia Resolution. Would you like me to Post that as well? :lol:

Please do I would like to see how jake will dance around that.
 
Your argument is vague at best, and has been clearly refuted by the guy who designed the document.

"Site" means a "place" or a "location", which is exactly what I mean above.

"Cite" means provenance of the work itself.

Learn your terms and how they are used.

When you meet your burden of proof, we will talk again.

Right now, you have fail.

Intense, a Federalist paper quote is secondary to a quote from Madison right in the middle of the 1832-1833 secession issue. Your quote is theory, while Madison's quote is literal, within the context of real time play of the issues.

Idiot you don't know the difference between cite and site.

You clearly don't. Go back and read. Remember I was the one who had to teach you how to use charts and graphs. :lol:
 
Your argument is vague at best, and has been clearly refuted by the guy who designed the document.

"Site" means a "place" or a "location", which is exactly what I mean above.

"Cite" means provenance of the work itself.

Learn your terms and how they are used.

When you meet your burden of proof, we will talk again.

Right now, you have fail.

Intense, a Federalist paper quote is secondary to a quote from Madison right in the middle of the 1832-1833 secession issue. Your quote is theory, while Madison's quote is literal, within the context of real time play of the issues.

Federalist #46 was Written by Madison and the Principle is General. :lol: Madison did not suffer Tyrants well. Do do realize that he was the Author of the Virginia Resolution. Would you like me to Post that as well? :lol:

You do realize that he was the designer of the original constitutional plan, the writer of the Virginia Resolution, and wrote particularly to the South Carolina secession crisis. He stated clearly that South Carolina had no cause to secede. I have already posted his letter, which gives clear guidance on everything he wrote before this letter.
 
Nope, look up the various types of federalism, then go read Jefferson and Madison more carefully. The Union is supreme: always was, always will be.

Not correct. The Constitution and the laws passed pursuant to the Constitution are Supreme. But that reference is with regard to possible conflicting laws. For example, let's say that New Jersey has passed a Law on Issue A. New York has a different Law on Issue A. Then, if passed pursuant to the authorities granted by the Constitution, The United States has a Law on Issue A. In case of conflict, the U.S. Law controls.

That doesn't make the Federal Government, the "Union" supreme. It makes the laws passed by the U.S. Government (if passed pursuant to the Constitutional grants of authorities and within those limitations) supreme.

The fact of the matter is clear: if a Federal law is passed OUTSIDE of the authority granted by the Constitution, it is NOT Supreme. It is, in fact, void in that case.

There's a clue inherent in that fact. It tells all of us who bother to pay attention that the Union was formed BY the States which ceded SOME of their sovereignty to the newly crafted Federal Government ONLY UPON CONDITIONS. Those conditions included the guaranteed, written LIMITATIONS on the authority of the U.S. Government. When the Federal Government acts outside of the bounds of that set of limitations, it acts without the authority of the States that created it. And, if the circumstances arise, the same State governments that agreed to cede some of their sovereignty to the Union can also withdraw that grant and terminate the relationship.

THAT is the way it always was. It is the way it always should be. The Acts of the Union at the time of the Civil War do not establish that the States have ever stipulated any change to that framework.

According to the Constitution, a conflict of laws inherently recognizes federal supremacy. States, however, can sue and the SCOTUS can determine in the state's favor. THAT is the way it always was. It is the way it always should be.

So nine people will determine rule? Nine appointed peoiple will dictate their opiniuons? We have one justice that has been on recorded saying juges legislate from the bench. And we have one judge that has no exprince as a judge.
 
Unless you can 75% of the folks, bigrebnc, to pass an amendment. That is almost impossible these days, and that leaves the SCOTUS. You got a better idea, I am all ears, as Ross Perot once said.
 
Your argument is vague at best, and has been clearly refuted by the guy who designed the document.

"Site" means a "place" or a "location", which is exactly what I mean above.

"Cite" means provenance of the work itself.

Learn your terms and how they are used.

When you meet your burden of proof, we will talk again.

Right now, you have fail.

Intense, a Federalist paper quote is secondary to a quote from Madison right in the middle of the 1832-1833 secession issue. Your quote is theory, while Madison's quote is literal, within the context of real time play of the issues.

Idiot you don't know the difference between cite and site.

You clearly don't. Go back and read. Remember I was the one who had to teach you how to use charts and graphs. :lol:
M14 called you on it.
Still waiting for the constitutional cites that negate my position.

One, you don't have a constitutional site that supports your point.

Two, the father of the Constitution disagrees with you.

Refute those two with evidence.
 
15th post
You'll have to do better than that.-- 'cause, you see, I am exceptionally familiar with the Constitution and I can tell you with absolute certainty that there's nothing in it thats says what you say it says.

So... cite the constitution, or admit you cannot.


Not that you or anyone else has shown.


Cite the part of the constitution that says this.

You could have gone through the thread..

But what the heck..

Section 8 - Powers of Congress

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

To provide and maintain a Navy;

To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings; And

To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.

Section 9 - Limits on Congress

The privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it.

Section 10 - Powers prohibited of States

No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility.

No State shall, without the Consent of the Congress, lay any Imposts or Duties on Imports or Exports, except what may be absolutely necessary for executing it's inspection Laws: and the net Produce of all Duties and Imposts, laid by any State on Imports or Exports, shall be for the Use of the Treasury of the United States; and all such Laws shall be subject to the Revision and Controul of the Congress.

No State shall, without the Consent of Congress, lay any duty of Tonnage, keep Troops, or Ships of War in time of Peace, enter into any Agreement or Compact with another State, or with a foreign Power, or engage in War, unless actually invaded, or in such imminent Danger as will not admit of delay.

Section 3 - Treason Note

Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.

Article IV - The States
Section 1 - Each State to Honor all others

Full Faith and Credit shall be given in each State to the public Acts, Records, and judicial Proceedings of every other State. And the Congress may by general Laws prescribe the Manner in which such Acts, Records and Proceedings shall be proved, and the Effect thereof.

Section 3 - New States

The Congress shall have Power to dispose of and make all needful Rules and Regulations respecting the Territory or other Property belonging to the United States; and nothing in this Constitution shall be so construed as to Prejudice any Claims of the United States, or of any particular State.

Section 4 - Republican government

The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened) against domestic Violence.

Article VI - Debts, Supremacy, Oaths
All Debts contracted and Engagements entered into, before the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be as valid against the United States under this Constitution, as under the Confederation.

This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.

The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States. http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html

Now..you find the part that allows Secession.

obama should be impeached
The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened) against domestic Violence.

He's not doing his job However if that contracxt is broken then a state has no recorse but to secede

Any state secede at any time. It is prohibited by the Constitution..but hey they can. It's been tried before. The results weren't so great.
 
Your argument is vague at best, and has been clearly refuted by the guy who designed the document.

"Site" means a "place" or a "location", which is exactly what I mean above.

"Cite" means provenance of the work itself.

Learn your terms and how they are used.

When you meet your burden of proof, we will talk again.

Right now, you have fail.

Intense, a Federalist paper quote is secondary to a quote from Madison right in the middle of the 1832-1833 secession issue. Your quote is theory, while Madison's quote is literal, within the context of real time play of the issues.

Federalist #46 was Written by Madison and the Principle is General. :lol: Madison did not suffer Tyrants well. Do do realize that he was the Author of the Virginia Resolution. Would you like me to Post that as well? :lol:

You do realize that he was the designer of the original constitutional plan, the writer of the Virginia Resolution, and wrote particularly to the South Carolina secession crisis. He stated clearly that South Carolina had no cause to secede. I have already posted his letter, which gives clear guidance on everything he wrote before this letter.

Produce Jeffersons words.
There is no way the founding fathers would have made such a biding agreement that would allow a dictator to take control of this country, and there is no way that any agreement would force the citizens to allow it to happen.
 
You could have gone through the thread..

But what the heck..



Now..you find the part that allows Secession.

obama should be impeached
The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened) against domestic Violence.

He's not doing his job However if that contracxt is broken then a state has no recorse but to secede

Any state secede at any time. It is prohibited by the Constitution..but hey they can. It's been tried before. The results weren't so great.
All that will happen is the federal government will collaspe.
 

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