Our founding fathers were not conservative

[M14 Shooter]

We all know, M14 Shooter, that you do not understand the Constitution, and your argument is nonsense.

Says he who has no sound counter to the argument previously and presently presented.

Feel free to address my argument with something of substance - in particular, the citations from the Constitution that invalidate said argument.

Else, your response here is nothing more than a petulant 'nuh-uh!!!'

 

[JakeStarkey]

SCOTUS has addressed these points long ago, M14 Shooter.

Here:, this may help.

U.S. Supreme Court
U.S. Supreme Court Bldg.
Washington, DC 20543
(202) 479-3000

Court Officials

Clerk: William K. Suter (202)479-3014
Marshal: Dale E. Bosley (202)479-3200
Reporter of Decisions: Frank D. Wagner (202)479-3390
Librarian: Shelley L. Dowling (202)479-3037
Attorney Admissions202)479-3018
Public Information Officer: Toni House (202)479-3211

 

[M14 Shooter]

SCOTUS has addressed these points long ago, M14 Shooter.

Says he who has no sound counter to the argument previously and presently presented.

Feel free to address my argument with something of substance - in particular, the citations from the Constitution that invalidate said argument.

Else, your response here is nothing more than a petulant 'nuh-uh!!!'

This may help.

The United States Constitution - The U.S. Constitution Online - USConstitution.net

 

[JakeStarkey]

The issue is dead. I understand your arguments, I understand your logic and reasoning, and the issue is dead. My two bits worth. Ignore me if it doesn't float your boat.

 

[M14 Shooter]

The issue is dead. I understand your arguments, I understand your logic and reasoning, and the issue is dead. My two bits worth. Ignore me if it doesn't float your boat.

When you can counter my argument with somethng of substance, come back and see me.

 

[Sheldon]

Our founding fathers were not conservative

Of course not. Conservatives don't start revolutions. I think they were called the Tories back then?

That's not entirely correct. Conservatives start revolutions to restore monarchies and bring in authoritarian governments.

I didn't think of that. Good point.

It's hard to pigeonhole the founders. There's Hamilton who wanted to have the President appointed for life, a conservative idea at the time. And there's Adams signing the Alien and Sedition Act, not conservative.

They were all over the place, and probably the only thing they'd have in common is disappointment at our current state of politics.

 

[JakeStarkey]

SCOTUS is substance, M14 Shooter, don't pretend it isn't. That you disagree with its rulings is obvious but unimportant.

 

[M14 Shooter]

SCOTUS is substance,

You simply referencing the SCotUS is not. Don't pretend otherwise.

I gave you a link to the text of the Constitution, so, if you are right, you have all the material necessary to refute me; that you continue to fail to do so only shows you know you cannot.

 

[JakeStarkey]

You are not a Constitutional authority, M14 Shooter any more than you are a biblical authority. I don't have to accept your argumentation for anything. But I will listen to James Madison. The Father of the Constitution disagrees with you. He followed the Nullification Crisis of the early 1830s. In a letter he noted that secession by will was confounded with secession because of intolerable oppression. The latter called for revolution while the former was “a violation, without cause, of a faith solemnly pledged.” Madison did not believe the claims of the South Carolinian secessionists had merit. All of this was written by the man who wrote the Virginia Resolution of the Virginia and Kentucky Resolutions.

Right of Revolution: James Madison to Daniel Webster

 

[M14 Shooter]

You are not a Constitutional authority...

Rather than to continue to avoid the challenge, why don't you cite the part(s) of the Constitution that negates my argument?

I gave you a link to the text of the Constitution, so, if you are right, you have all the material necessary to refute me; that you continue to fail to do so only shows you know you cannot.

 

[teapartysamurai]

Day late and a dollar short, as always. You have just described yourself, honey.

I'm sorry but no. The libs are WAY late on this. This thread has been going on how long and no one UNTIL NOW thought, helloooooooooooooo, you need to back up your premise before we go a step further.

Libs just say so and then conservatives have to back up the argument????????

Anybody ever heard a logic??????

Under what logic do liberals think THEY put forth a premise MINUS EVIDENCE and it stands MINUS EVIDENCE.

There is a reason Dan Rather was laughed at, when he said "no one has proved otherwise."

Because they DON'T HAVE TO PROVE OTHERWISE.

Present your evidence liberals and then we will talk. Until then, this thread should have been dead from the get go.

You don't use logic, TPS. Like all fascist rightwingers, you use the big lie and propaganda. Many leftwingers do the same thing. You are like Dan Rather; you have not proved otherwise. Until you do, you are just a blabber.

Um yeah, you prove right away who doesn't use logic by your going straight to personal attacks rather than factual debate.

Thus I think we can dispense and ignore you the rest of the thread until you want to grow up and act like an adult.

So, given that Jake Starkey is a child, we are still left with the fact that NO EVIDENCE was given for the op.

Why should conservatives fall for an unsupported premise and debate that unsupported premise.

Before that happens, the op should be supported with evidence.

Are liberals going to supply that, or is it obvious, liberals can't supply it.

If they can't, then the op collapses via the lack of evidence for a foundation and only the alternative is left.

Are liberals going to step up to the plate?

How silly of me, of course they won't.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Tea Party Samurai, calling names means nothing except that you are acting like you are still in the 2nd grade.

You have used personal attacks from the get go, and then whine when you get hit with it (like Righteous1).

Yes, we desire you to act like an adult.

You are clear that you don't like the evidence given for the OP.

The premise has been supported and has been contradicted by liberals and conservatives.

To suggest that somehow 'conservatives' or 'liberals' are inherently superior in argument because they are one or the other is one of the more ignorant statements you have made in a long time.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Tea Party Samurai, calling names means nothing except that you are acting like you are still in the 2nd grade.

You have used personal attacks from the get go, and then whine when you get hit with it (like Righteous1).

Yes, we desire you to act like an adult.

You are clear that you don't like the evidence given for the OP.

The premise has been supported and has been contradicted by liberals and conservatives.

To suggest that somehow 'conservatives' or 'liberals' are inherently superior in argument because they are one or the other is one of the more ignorant statements you have made in a long time.

Holy shit junior how many times must I tell you not too insult adults?

 

[JakeStarkey]

Thanks for the advice, but you are not an adult.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Again no premise and I must reiterate for Jakey here has done everything but engage in a discussion of what I stated.

Yes to equate slavery as worst than feudalism is a demonstration of how little Jakeyfool knows of history. Feudalism is Kings and Queens, Slavery is not a type of monarchy or government, that is why you cannot compare the two, it is ignorant to do so, had Jakey stated Marxism murdered more innocent people than Feudalism that is a comparison of systems of governments. That is an apt comparison.

Slavery is what it is, people put into bondage and forced to serve. Slavery happened under Feudalism, Slavery happened under Dictatorships, Slavery happened under Democracies.

I have heard and spoken with people who are Marxist, I have spoken to those who only parrot Chomsky, one thing Chomsky/Anarchist/States is exactly what Jakey stated here.

My comment is clear and factual. I specifically stated who I was speaking of, Anarchist and Marxist. Jakey did a surgical cut and paste to quote me, Jakey left much I said out and decided to include my quote below when attacking, demeaning, and attempted to misconstrue what I stated, Jakey's first attack quoted just my name and left my facts out of his post, Jakey states he is smart and knowledgeable, clear and concise so I take Jakey for his word. Jakey took extreme offense to MDN stating what is fact. Jakey is defending Marxist and Anarchist by attacking me, by calling me a racist.



I am married to a Negro-Portuguese woman, I am conservative, I am white, I am middle aged, my children are mixed race. It is obvious my children will one day be confronted by a person that is a bigot as Jakey is. What do I teach them, what do I tell them, I cannot tell them to simply ignore Jakey, bigots, Anarchist, and Marxist are guilty of some of the most horrific crimes against humanity. I have challenged Jakey to explain his post, three times, Jakey refused to edit or modify his post, further Jakey just Private Messaged me with a warning.

So what do I tell my children about the type of bigotry and what I can only see as hate, what do I tell my mixed race children when a bigot such as jakey calls their father a racist.

I unfortunately have had the pleasure of being confronted by many bullies, for some reason in High School I got picked on and pushed around, I learned early on you cannot run from bullies, they will find you one day, thus you must confront them in front of your friends and if front of their friends, to run from a bully emboldens a bully and put myself in dangerous situations I always managed to escape, dangerous as in the position of physically fight two people with more awaiting the outcome, times like that I took my beating.

So one must confront the hate when hateful people push you around.

In school I was the tall, skinny, 120 lb weakling (today I am 6'2" at 200lbs), in the ninth grade the class bully from the fooball team started pushing me around and broke a chain on my neck, I bit my tongue and said, "you sucker", that was it, he pushed me physically as I tried to talk my way out, he pushed me again and rubbed his clenched fist under my chin, that was it, the fight was on, I hit the bully hard and furious and broke his nose in three places, not bad for a 120 lb weakling.

So now I have a bully hear on the boards, Jakey called me a racist and continues to demean and impugn me, when challenged to clarify his bigotry Jakey acts as a bully and warns me in private message.

What do I tell my children, I will teach them to be men, to stand up to the bullies and bigots, to be wary, to be prepared, that people such as this are very dangerous.

I will teach them the history of the KKK, the history of the murders committed by Anarchists, they will learn the death and destruction brought upon the world my Marxism, Fascism and the Nazis.

I thank Jake for reminding me of the ugliness of human nature.

Jakey, did you miss my post or are you a coward as well as a bully.

Bub, you falsely imputed certain belief and behavior to me, and I immediately and forcefully corrected your actions. I always will do so. All of the material above does not excuse your bad behavior.

Don't like it, ignore me.

you're noithing but a kid that has been allowed to run wild on the internet.

 

[teapartysamurai]

Jakey, did you miss my post or are you a coward as well as a bully.

Bub, you falsely imputed certain belief and behavior to me, and I immediately and forcefully corrected your actions. I always will do so. All of the material above does not excuse your bad behavior.

Don't like it, ignore me.

you're noithing but a kid that has been allowed to run wild on the internet.

I'm still just waiting for the op to supply evidence.

Seems to me he ran away and the rest of you are arguing what should have been a moot point from post one.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

I have..in this very thread. It would be redundant to cut and paste it again.

You'll have to do better than that.-- 'cause, you see, I am exceptionally familiar with the Constitution and I can tell you with absolute certainty that there's nothing in it thats says what you say it says.

So... cite the constitution, or admit you cannot.


Not that you or anyone else has shown.


Cite the part of the constitution that says this.

You could have gone through the thread..

But what the heck..

Section 8 - Powers of Congress

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

To provide and maintain a Navy;

To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings; And

To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.

Section 9 - Limits on Congress

The privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it.

Section 10 - Powers prohibited of States

No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility.

No State shall, without the Consent of the Congress, lay any Imposts or Duties on Imports or Exports, except what may be absolutely necessary for executing it's inspection Laws: and the net Produce of all Duties and Imposts, laid by any State on Imports or Exports, shall be for the Use of the Treasury of the United States; and all such Laws shall be subject to the Revision and Controul of the Congress.

No State shall, without the Consent of Congress, lay any duty of Tonnage, keep Troops, or Ships of War in time of Peace, enter into any Agreement or Compact with another State, or with a foreign Power, or engage in War, unless actually invaded, or in such imminent Danger as will not admit of delay.

Section 3 - Treason Note

Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.

Article IV - The States
Section 1 - Each State to Honor all others

Full Faith and Credit shall be given in each State to the public Acts, Records, and judicial Proceedings of every other State. And the Congress may by general Laws prescribe the Manner in which such Acts, Records and Proceedings shall be proved, and the Effect thereof.

Section 3 - New States

The Congress shall have Power to dispose of and make all needful Rules and Regulations respecting the Territory or other Property belonging to the United States; and nothing in this Constitution shall be so construed as to Prejudice any Claims of the United States, or of any particular State.

Section 4 - Republican government

The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened) against domestic Violence.

Article VI - Debts, Supremacy, Oaths
All Debts contracted and Engagements entered into, before the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be as valid against the United States under this Constitution, as under the Confederation.

This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.

The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.

Now..you find the part that allows Secession.

obama should be impeached
The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened) against domestic Violence.

He's not doing his job However if that contracxt is broken then a state has no recorse but to secede

 

[Intense]

You'll have to do better than that.-- 'cause, you see, I am exceptionally familiar with the Constitution and I can tell you with absolute certainty that there's nothing in it thats says what you say it says.

So... cite the constitution, or admit you cannot.


Not that you or anyone else has shown.


Cite the part of the constitution that says this.

You could have gone through the thread..

But what the heck..

Section 8 - Powers of Congress

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

To provide and maintain a Navy;

To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings; And

To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.

Section 9 - Limits on Congress

The privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it.

Section 10 - Powers prohibited of States

No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility.

No State shall, without the Consent of the Congress, lay any Imposts or Duties on Imports or Exports, except what may be absolutely necessary for executing it's inspection Laws: and the net Produce of all Duties and Imposts, laid by any State on Imports or Exports, shall be for the Use of the Treasury of the United States; and all such Laws shall be subject to the Revision and Controul of the Congress.

No State shall, without the Consent of Congress, lay any duty of Tonnage, keep Troops, or Ships of War in time of Peace, enter into any Agreement or Compact with another State, or with a foreign Power, or engage in War, unless actually invaded, or in such imminent Danger as will not admit of delay.

Section 3 - Treason Note

Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.

Article IV - The States
Section 1 - Each State to Honor all others

Full Faith and Credit shall be given in each State to the public Acts, Records, and judicial Proceedings of every other State. And the Congress may by general Laws prescribe the Manner in which such Acts, Records and Proceedings shall be proved, and the Effect thereof.

Section 3 - New States

The Congress shall have Power to dispose of and make all needful Rules and Regulations respecting the Territory or other Property belonging to the United States; and nothing in this Constitution shall be so construed as to Prejudice any Claims of the United States, or of any particular State.

Section 4 - Republican government

The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened) against domestic Violence.

Article VI - Debts, Supremacy, Oaths
All Debts contracted and Engagements entered into, before the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be as valid against the United States under this Constitution, as under the Confederation.

This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.

The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.

Now..you find the part that allows Secession.

obama should be impeached
The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened) against domestic Violence.

He's not doing his job However if that contracxt is broken then a state has no recorse but to secede

No. He was elected. He should finish his term, unless you have indisputable proof of High Crimes, which you don't.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

You could have gone through the thread..

But what the heck..



Now..you find the part that allows Secession.

obama should be impeached
The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened) against domestic Violence.

He's not doing his job However if that contracxt is broken then a state has no recorse but to secede

No. He was elected. He should finish his term, unless you have indisputable proof of High Crimes, which you don't.

Have you forgotten about Arizona? We do still have citizens there. obama is not protecting them

 

[theDoctorisIn]

obama should be impeached
The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened) against domestic Violence.

He's not doing his job However if that contracxt is broken then a state has no recorse but to secede

No. He was elected. He should finish his term, unless you have indisputable proof of High Crimes, which you don't.

Have you forgotten about Arizona? We do still have citizens there. obama is not protecting them

Really? Cause Obama has deported more illegals than Bush did.....