Our founding fathers were not Christian

[Avatar4321]

Look, there are two possibilities:
-They were not Christian

-They were Christian... making their creation of a secular government devoid of Christianity all the more poignant and arguing even more strongly for keeping Jefferson's wall of separation intact.

Too few people actually understand Jefferson's wall of separation.

And it also requires us to ask: Do we take one Founders views as paramount even if all the others disagreed and had other reasons for the First Amendment?

 

[The Illusion]

Look, there are two possibilities:
-They were not Christian

-They were Christian... making their creation of a secular government devoid of Christianity all the more poignant and arguing even more strongly for keeping Jefferson's wall of separation intact.

Too few people actually understand Jefferson's wall of separation.

And it also requires us to ask: Do we take one Founders views as paramount even if all the others disagreed and had other reasons for the First Amendment?

Jefferson wrote a letter to the Danbury Baptist Association in 1802 to answer a letter from them written in October 1801. The Danbury Baptists were a religious minority in Connecticut, and they complained that in their state, the religious liberties they enjoyed were not seen as immutable rights, but as privileges granted by the legislature — as "favors granted." Jefferson's reply did not address their concerns about problems with state establishment of religion - only of establishment on the national level. The letter contains the phrase "wall of separation between church and state," which led to the short-hand for the Establishment Clause that we use today: "Separation of church and state."

Read more here: Jefferson's Wall of Separation Letter - The U.S. Constitution Online - USConstitution.net

Establishment Clause: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Read more here: U.S. Constitution - Amendment 1 - The U.S. Constitution Online - USConstitution.net

Mr. President

To messers Nehemiah Dodge, Ephraim Robbins, & Stephen S. Nelson a committee of the Danbury Baptist association in the state of Connecticut.

Gentlemen

The affectionate sentiments of esteem & approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful & zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, and in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more & more pleasing.

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man & his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state. [Congress thus inhibited from acts respecting religion, and the Executive authorised only to execute their acts, I have refrained from presenting even occasional performances of devotion presented indeed legally where an Executive is the legal head of a national church, but subject here, as religious exercises only to the voluntary regulations and discipline of each respective sect.] Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection and blessing of the common Father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves and your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem.

(signed) Thomas Jefferson
Jan.1.1802.

Read more here: Jefferson's Wall of Separation Letter - The U.S. Constitution Online - USConstitution.net

Jamie

 

[Avatar4321]

Thank you, I'm very much aware of what Jefferson meant, but it's always nice to reread sources.

 

[Amanda]

The founding fathers were primarily Christian and created the nation using Christian principles.

That's a fact. You can lie about it all you like, but the truth stands.

And the statement that Illusion's intellect is superior to Amanda's is laughable.

you have claimed that jamie wouldnt know an intellectual if one sat on her face or visa versa. i then asked yoiu to post as an example of what you feel an intellectual would post as. and the following is what you post:

"The founding fathers were primarily Christian and created the nation using Christian principles.

That's a fact. You can lie about it all you like, but the truth stands."

and the lack of citations for your "facts" is conspicuously absent, and yet there is a great deal of yelling about jamie not citing a clearly well thought out and intelligent post. and no, dont try to say that you are doing what the romans do. that wont wash.

if the above i quoted from you is an example of what you claim is intellectualism or intellectual, then you are simply yapping at jamies heels like an attack hamster. your cage misses you. neither you nor your girlfriend (refer to the projected inferred face sitting) amanda have posted anything of intellectual inspiration or content. y'alls jealousy of jamie is blatant, garish and mediocre.

oh btw, you get the last word. smile. yes consider it a gift.

I think the yelling was about "Jamie" lying about a news article. Of course, if "Jamie" can present the article in question I'm sure all will be forgiven, but since posters here from both sides of the political aisle (indicating lack of partisanship) were able to go to the site and read news (when "Jamie" said it wasn't possible without paying) and none of us could find the article in question it's pretty much a given that "Jamie" was talking out of her ass.

you think you sting me with that remark? I'm bi. But what's troubling is that you seem to be implying there's something wrong with that.... what was that about "intellectual inspiration or content"? All you have is personal insults and you don't even know any of us. Or do you?

 

[Kalam]

The founders were largely Christian:

Religion of the Founding Fathers of America

However, Franklin and Jefferson, two of the most important, were deists who disdained theistic Christianity. The religion of the founders is of little consequence - they (well, many of them) believed that religious affairs and the affairs of the state should be managed separately, and that is what's important.

 

[Amanda]

The founding fathers were primarily Christian and created the nation using Christian principles.

That's a fact. You can lie about it all you like, but the truth stands.

And the statement that Illusion's intellect is superior to Amanda's is laughable.

Aw Alli, that's sweet.

I don't pretend to be smart, I'm just a country girl that calls it like I see it.

Id appreciate it if you either stayed on topic in my topics or stayed off them. If you cannot stay on topic, then post something with content. Id appreciate it. Thanks.

Jamie

And I'd appreciate it if you'd post your source when citing news articles. I guess we can't always get what we want.

Do you not know where you are? You don't get to call the shots here. All you have here is the credibility you EARN. So far you're running at a deficit. Step up your game or step off.

 

[The Illusion]

Back in the day, It didnt matter if you belonged to another church, you still had to support the Church of England. Jefferson was reassuring the Baptists that "that" would not be the case.

Professor Edward S. Corwin, a historian of the Constitution of the United States, wrote an essay entitled The "Higher Law" Background of American Constitutional Law. It was reprinted in 42 Harvard Law Review (1928-1929). In this work he recalled the names of the great thinkers of their time: Demosthenes, Sophocles, Aristotle, Cicero, Seneca, Ulpian, Gaius, John of Salisbury, Isidore of Seville, St. Thomas Aquinas, Bracton, Fortescue, Coke, Grotius, Newton, Hooker, Pufendorf, Locke, Blackstone. Clinton Rossiter, who wrote a prefatory note to the essay, noted: "It should do us good to remember at the height of our power and self-esteem that our political tradition and constitutional law are late blooms on a sturdy growth more than two thousand years old and still vigorous."

It is recorded: "There are certain principles of right and justice which are entitled to prevail of their own intrinsic excellence, altogether regardless of the attitude of those who wield the physical resources of the community. Such principles were made by no human hands; indeed, if they did not antedate deity itself, they still so express its nature as to bind and control it. They are external to all Will as such and interpenetrate all Reason as such. They are eternal and immutable. In relation to such principles, human laws are, when entitled to obedience save as to matters indifferent, merely a record or transcript, and their enactment an act not of will or power but one of discovery and declaration." Professor Corwin noted that this concept was translated into our Ninth Article of our Bill of Rights, which declares: "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."

The "Higher Law", or "Natural Law", is founded upon the principle: "Men do not make laws. They do but discover them"; from which follows: "An unjust law is not law".

Men discover laws, we do not make them. And even tho Jefferson's letter was intended to be fairly narrow, subsequent court rulings eventually "discovered" that the Establishment Clause had a wider impact/application, just as they eventually "discovered" that african americans were not 3/5 of a person and slaves, but an entire person and free. Just as they also discovered that women have the right to vote.

Jamie

 

[JBeukema]

Do we take one Founders views as paramount even if all the others disagreed and had other reasons for the First Amendment?

1) He wasn't the only one
2) The 1st amendment is written so for one reasons: theists cannot be trusted.; They knew this. They knew they could not trust eachother and feared that the first sect to gain power would become just like the Anglican church. The solution: a secular government.

 

[The Illusion]

Even if they were not Christian, they had to make it seem as they were because saying, "Im going to run your country and Im an Athiest/Diest/Muslim/Wiccan just wouldnt work. Some of them would have had to put on that act in order to make it work. This is of my own opinion.

Jamie

 

[JBeukema]

Nobody really spoke of Atheism back then,. Claiming Deism was the closest one could get away with.

 

[The Illusion]

Nobody really spoke of Atheism back then,. Claiming Deism was the closest one could get away with.

Yes, this is true. I was merely trying to get a point across

Jamie

 

[Amanda]

Even if they were not Christian, they had to make it seem as they were because saying, "Im going to run your country and Im an Athiest/Diest/Muslim/Wiccan just wouldnt work. Some of them would have had to put on that act in order to make it work. This is of my own opinion.

Jamie

Opinion is great. Do you base this opinion on anything other than wishful thinking?

Your thread title is: Our founding fathers were not Christian and that has proved to be not so accurate according to historical records. What does it matter what they were? Why do you care if they were Christian or not?

 

[The Illusion]

Even if they were not Christian, they had to make it seem as they were because saying, "Im going to run your country and Im an Athiest/Diest/Muslim/Wiccan just wouldnt work. Some of them would have had to put on that act in order to make it work. This is of my own opinion.

Jamie

Opinion is great. Do you base this opinion on anything other than wishful thinking?

Your thread title is: Our founding fathers were not Christian and that has proved to be not so accurate according to historical records. What does it matter what they were? Why do you care if they were Christian or not?

I care a lot if they were or not. Some religious fanatics sit here and say that America is falling apart because of its lack of religion/Christianity. They sit here and say that the American government needs to have Christ in it in order to save itself. I disagree. I think that the American Government is failing in part by so much religion being mixed with the state....when religion just needs to sit its ass down and keep its mouth shut. It doesnt belong in the state or governments business at any level.

"I want you to just let a wave of intolerance wash over you. I want you to let a wave of hatred wash over you. Yes, hate is good... Our goal is a Christian nation. We have a biblical duty, we are called on by God to conquer this country. We don't want equal time. We don't want pluralism."
--Randall Terry, The News Sentinel, (Ft. Wayne, IN.), 8/16/93

"We are to make Bible-obeying disciples of anybody that gets in our way."
--Jay Grimstead, February 1987

"Nobody has the right to worship on this planet any other God than Jehovah. And therefore the state does not have the responsibility to defend anybody's pseudo-right to worship an idol."
--Rev. Joseph Morecraft, Chalcedon Presbyterian Church, "Biblical Role of Civil Government" speech given 8/31/93 at Biblical Worldview and Christian Education Conference

"This is God's world, not Satan's. Christians are the lawful heirs, not non-Christians."
--Gary North, Political Polytheism: The Myth of Pluralism (Tyler, TX: Institute for Christian Economics, 1989), p. 102



Read more here: More Fundie Quotes

And you wonder if im concerned???????? Hell yes Im concerned.

Jamie

 

[The Illusion]

And you guys WANT these CCR's in office....where they wrap the flag around them and say "YES WE ARE AMERICAN" and yet have no understanding of what America stands for and wants to do away with what the constitution guarantees and then sit back and call themselves American. Horseshit. They dont want America.. they want theocracy. They want Iran. They want the morality police to break into your home at will and make sure your Burka is at ankle length - no skin. It makes me sick to even think about it.

Jamie

 

[Amanda]

Even if they were not Christian, they had to make it seem as they were because saying, "Im going to run your country and Im an Athiest/Diest/Muslim/Wiccan just wouldnt work. Some of them would have had to put on that act in order to make it work. This is of my own opinion.

Jamie

Opinion is great. Do you base this opinion on anything other than wishful thinking?

Your thread title is: Our founding fathers were not Christian and that has proved to be not so accurate according to historical records. What does it matter what they were? Why do you care if they were Christian or not?

I care a lot if they were or not. Some religious fanatics sit here and say that America is falling apart because of its lack of religion/Christianity. They sit here and say that the American government needs to have Christ in it in order to save itself. I disagree. I think that the American Government is failing in part by so much religion being mixed with the state....when religion just needs to sit its ass down and keep its mouth shut. It doesnt belong in the state or governments business at any level.

[quotes removed for sanity sake and lack of validity to subject]

And you wonder if im concerned???????? Hell yes Im concerned.

Jamie

You're concerned if the Founding Fathers were Christian or not because you can dig up some quotes from moderns? I guess I don't follow the logic.

And FWIW, Vinny insinuated that homosexual activity was bad, does that put him on par with Fred Phelps?

 

[vincubus]

And you guys WANT these CCR's in office....where they wrap the flag around them and say "YES WE ARE AMERICAN" and yet have no understanding of what America stands for and wants to do away with what the constitution guarantees and then sit back and call themselves American. Horseshit. They dont want America.. they want theocracy. They want Iran. They want the morality police to break into your home at will and make sure your Burka is at ankle length - no skin. It makes me sick to even think about it.

Jamie

it seems obvious to most that to be a conservative christian is to not be an american. christian, then or now, we dont need running our nation. the quotes you posted aren't what the founding fathers wanted either. they knew the dangers of a theocracy.

 

[Amanda]

And you guys WANT these CCR's in office....where they wrap the flag around them and say "YES WE ARE AMERICAN" and yet have no understanding of what America stands for and wants to do away with what the constitution guarantees and then sit back and call themselves American. Horseshit. They dont want America.. they want theocracy. They want Iran. They want the morality police to break into your home at will and make sure your Burka is at ankle length - no skin. It makes me sick to even think about it.

Jamie

it seems obvious to most that to be a conservative christian is to not be an american. christian, then or now, we dont need running our nation. the quotes you posted aren't what the founding fathers wanted either. they knew the dangers of a theocracy.

Obvious, huh? Do you have a link or is this just another opinion?

 

[JBeukema]

it seems obvious to most that to be a conservative christian is to not be an american.

That's almost as ignorant as saying there are no leftist Americans...

I say almost because a true CC is 'not part of this world' and cares not about nations, property (in fact, Jesus demands they become paupers and wanderers with no money or home), but focus solely on their reward in heaven (I know it contradicts the bibel, but that's what happens when you cite biblical teachings- it contradicts other biblical teachings. Hate the authors, not me) that they will receive for the good workks the will be drivven to do by the holy spirit as signs to the world of their grace.

 

[Care4all]

And you guys WANT these CCR's in office....where they wrap the flag around them and say "YES WE ARE AMERICAN" and yet have no understanding of what America stands for and wants to do away with what the constitution guarantees and then sit back and call themselves American. Horseshit. They dont want America.. they want theocracy. They want Iran. They want the morality police to break into your home at will and make sure your Burka is at ankle length - no skin. It makes me sick to even think about it.

Jamie

it seems obvious to most that to be a conservative christian is to not be an american. christian, then or now, we dont need running our nation. the quotes you posted aren't what the founding fathers wanted either. they knew the dangers of a theocracy.

Define Theocracy

 

[vincubus]

it seems obvious to most that to be a conservative christian is to not be an american.

That's almost as ignorant as saying there are no leftist Americans...

I say almost because a true CC is 'not part of this world' and cares not about nations, property (in fact, Jesus demands they become paupers and wanderers with no money or home), but focus solely on their reward in heaven (I know it contradicts the bibel, but that's what happens when you cite biblical teachings- it contradicts other biblical teachings. Hate the authors, not me) that they will receive for the good workks the will be drivven to do by the holy spirit as signs to the world of their grace.

lol!!! re-read your post. if the statement i made that you quoted is ignorant, then why did you just do everything but a handstand to support it?