One Birther's belief (maybe all?)

[SFC Ollie]

Well I think Trump brings up a good question. Why is Obama spending millions of dollars in litigation against getting the long form birth certificate made public.?
What might be on the long form that he doesn't not want the public to know?
Also why won't he release his college records?
Maybe he didn't take economics 101?

Of course he took Economics 101, that was the year he was doing all that crack....

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Well I think Trump brings up a good question. Why is Obama spending millions of dollars in litigation against getting the long form birth certificate made public.?
What might be on the long form that he doesn't not want the public to know?
Also why won't he release his college records?
Maybe he didn't take economics 101?

Of course he took Economics 101, that was the year he was doing all that crack....

 

[washamericom]

all i had to do was find one copy of a long form birth certificate from hawaii, 1961. i did not find one.

long form birth certificate hawaii 1961 - Google Search

now that we know it can be copied...

 

[WorldWatcher]

all i had to do was find one copy of a long form birth certificate from hawaii, 1961. i did not find one.

long form birth certificate hawaii 1961 - Google Search

now that we know it can be copied...

So your position now is that pictures on the interwebs are not OK?


BTW - what Hawaii may have issued in the past does not mean they are what they issue now. Ya know with computer's and electronic creation of documents and all.



>>>>

 

[WorldWatcher]

why doesn't obama's birth certificate have any information on it.

It has all the information deemed necessary by the State of Hawaii to establish birth and the citizenship resulting from it.

• Date & Time
• Location
• Parents

You need Date & Time to know when. You need Location to establish where, so that the recipiant can prove under the 14th Amendment they were born on American soil. It contains the names of the parents, which is needed under the 14th Amendment to determine that they were under the jurisdiction of the United States and not foreign diplomats.

Anything else is irrelevant to establishing citizenship.

does the copy really say "don't worry this is real" on it ??

No of course not.

It is however issued under the seal of the State of Hawaii as it's official publicly issued birth record and notes that it is "prima facie evidence of the fact of birth in any court proceeding" as required under Hawaiian Revised Statutes 338-18(b) and 338-19.


>>>>

 

[jgarden]

The Weekly has obtained a copy of an email sent to fellow conservatives this week by Marilyn Davenport, a Southern California Tea Party activist and member of the central committee of the Orange County Republican Party.

Under the words, "Now you know why no birth certificate," there's an Obama family portrait showing them as apes.

(Donald Trump must be elated to finally have an explanation about Obama's true birth circumstances.)

[UPDATED: Baugh is Powerless] Racist Orange County Republican Email: President Obama and His Parents Are Apes - Orange County News - Navel Gazing

****************************************************************
At least one Republican president has played "understudy" to a "chimp!"

 

[bigrebnc1775]

all i had to do was find one copy of a long form birth certificate from hawaii, 1961. i did not find one.

long form birth certificate hawaii 1961 - Google Search

now that we know it can be copied...

So your position now is that pictures on the interwebs are not OK?


BTW - what Hawaii may have issued in the past does not mean they are what they issue now. Ya know with computer's and electronic creation of documents and all.
>>>>

What Hawaii did was issue a fraudulent document.

You don't think state officals don't issue fake documents?
Hell it happen here in North Carolina a couple years ago.

Mount Pleasant woman charged with issuing fake I.D. cards to illegal immigrants
Mount Pleasant woman charged with issuing fake I.D. cards to illegal immigrants | Salisbury, NC - Salisbury Post

Just last year

GAO sting shows passport fraud remains a problem
http://www.govexec.com/dailyfed/0710/073010kp1.htm

 

[bigrebnc1775]

why doesn't obama's birth certificate have any information on it.

It has all the information deemed necessary by the State of Hawaii to establish birth and the citizenship resulting from it.

• Date & Time
• Location
• Parents

You need Date & Time to know when. You need Location to establish where, so that the recipiant can prove under the 14th Amendment they were born on American soil. It contains the names of the parents, which is needed under the 14th Amendment to determine that they were under the jurisdiction of the United States and not foreign diplomats.

Anything else is irrelevant to establishing citizenship.

does the copy really say "don't worry this is real" on it ??

No of course not.

It is however issued under the seal of the State of Hawaii as it's official publicly issued birth record and notes that it is "prima facie evidence of the fact of birth in any court proceeding" as required under Hawaiian Revised Statutes 338-18(b) and 338-19.


>>>>

It doesn't have an accepted by state registrar date.

 

[bodecea]

all i had to do was find one copy of a long form birth certificate from hawaii, 1961. i did not find one.

long form birth certificate hawaii 1961 - Google Search

now that we know it can be copied...

So your position now is that pictures on the interwebs are not OK?


BTW - what Hawaii may have issued in the past does not mean they are what they issue now. Ya know with computer's and electronic creation of documents and all.
>>>>

What Hawaii did was issue a fraudulent document.

You don't think state officals don't issue fake documents?Hell it happen here in North Carolina a couple years ago.

Mount Pleasant woman charged with issuing fake I.D. cards to illegal immigrants
Mount Pleasant woman charged with issuing fake I.D. cards to illegal immigrants | Salisbury, NC - Salisbury Post

Just last year

GAO sting shows passport fraud remains a problem
GAO sting shows passport fraud remains a problem (7/30/10) -- GovExec.com

It's all a conspiracy.....even the state of Hawaii is in on it....

 

[bigrebnc1775]

So your position now is that pictures on the interwebs are not OK?


BTW - what Hawaii may have issued in the past does not mean they are what they issue now. Ya know with computer's and electronic creation of documents and all.
>>>>

What Hawaii did was issue a fraudulent document.

You don't think state officals don't issue fake documents?Hell it happen here in North Carolina a couple years ago.

Mount Pleasant woman charged with issuing fake I.D. cards to illegal immigrants
Mount Pleasant woman charged with issuing fake I.D. cards to illegal immigrants | Salisbury, NC - Salisbury Post

Just last year

GAO sting shows passport fraud remains a problem
GAO sting shows passport fraud remains a problem (7/30/10) -- GovExec.com

It's all a conspiracy.....even the state of Hawaii is in on it....

If you noticed government employees do lie and give documents approval when they shouldn't.

 

[WorldWatcher]

all i had to do was find one copy of a long form birth certificate from hawaii, 1961. i did not find one.

long form birth certificate hawaii 1961 - Google Search

now that we know it can be copied...

So your position now is that pictures on the interwebs are not OK?


BTW - what Hawaii may have issued in the past does not mean they are what they issue now. Ya know with computer's and electronic creation of documents and all.
>>>>

What Hawaii did was issue a fraudulent document.

You don't think state officals don't issue fake documents?
Hell it happen here in North Carolina a couple years ago.

Mount Pleasant woman charged with issuing fake I.D. cards to illegal immigrants
Mount Pleasant woman charged with issuing fake I.D. cards to illegal immigrants | Salisbury, NC - Salisbury Post

Just last year

GAO sting shows passport fraud remains a problem
GAO sting shows passport fraud remains a problem (7/30/10) -- GovExec.com

I'm sorry, am I missing something are you saying that no state or government entity accept any document issued by another other state or government entity because of some cases of identify theft?

No federal password can be issued because they cannot accept birth certificates from any state because of a few cases of fraud?

That no DMV in any state could issue any drivers licenses because of a few cases of fraud?

Ya, that will work well.




What would work in well in my mind is that all 50 states require that ANY candidate for elective office from Dog Catcher to President be required to submit legal proof they meet the qualifications for that office. For Presidents and Vice Presidents that means birth record form the issuing state and proof of United States residence for the required time. Attached to it will be a legal release to that Secretary of State so that they can validate the information on the birth record and that it is valid. But birthers are so focused on Obama they can't see past their own nose. For example, Arizona writing a law that would reject the Official birth document of another state (and the one issued by Arizona btw) but yet accepting documentation that someone had the end of their pee-pee snipped off as proof of citizenship. Makes no sense.



>>>>

 

[WorldWatcher]

all i had to do was find one copy of a long form birth certificate from hawaii, 1961. i did not find one.

long form birth certificate hawaii 1961 - Google Search

now that we know it can be copied...

So your position now is that pictures on the interwebs are not OK?


BTW - what Hawaii may have issued in the past does not mean they are what they issue now. Ya know with computer's and electronic creation of documents and all.
>>>>

What Hawaii did was issue a fraudulent document.

You don't think state officals don't issue fake documents?
Hell it happen here in North Carolina a couple years ago.

Mount Pleasant woman charged with issuing fake I.D. cards to illegal immigrants
Mount Pleasant woman charged with issuing fake I.D. cards to illegal immigrants | Salisbury, NC - Salisbury Post

Just last year

GAO sting shows passport fraud remains a problem
GAO sting shows passport fraud remains a problem (7/30/10) -- GovExec.com

If the document is issued by the State of Hawaii under it's official seal, it is not "fraudulent". It's official. Not saying a copy posted to a web site is official either.

I'm sorry, am I missing something. Are you saying that no state or government entity accept any document issued by another other state or government entity because of some cases of identify theft?

No federal passport can be issued because they cannot accept birth certificates from any state because of a few cases of fraud?

That no DMV in any state could issue any drivers licenses because of a few cases of fraud?

Ya, that will work well.




What would work well in my mind is that all 50 states require that ANY candidate for elective office from Dog Catcher to President be required to submit legal proof they meet the qualifications for that office. For Presidents and Vice Presidents that means birth record form the issuing state and proof of United States residence for the required time. Attached to it will be a legal release to that Secretary of State so that they can validate the information on the birth record and that it is valid. But birthers are so focused on Obama they can't see past their own nose. For example, Arizona writing a law that would reject the Official birth document of another state (and the one issued by Arizona btw) but yet accepting documentation that someone had the end of their pee-pee snipped off as proof of citizenship. Makes no sense.



>>>>

 

[bigrebnc1775]

So your position now is that pictures on the interwebs are not OK?


BTW - what Hawaii may have issued in the past does not mean they are what they issue now. Ya know with computer's and electronic creation of documents and all.
>>>>

What Hawaii did was issue a fraudulent document.

You don't think state officals don't issue fake documents?
Hell it happen here in North Carolina a couple years ago.

Mount Pleasant woman charged with issuing fake I.D. cards to illegal immigrants
Mount Pleasant woman charged with issuing fake I.D. cards to illegal immigrants | Salisbury, NC - Salisbury Post

Just last year

GAO sting shows passport fraud remains a problem
GAO sting shows passport fraud remains a problem (7/30/10) -- GovExec.com

If the document is issued by the State of Hawaii under it's official seal, it is not "fraudulent". It's official. Not saying a copy posted to a web site is official either.

I'm sorry, am I missing something. Are you saying that no state or government entity accept any document issued by another other state or government entity because of some cases of identify theft?

No federal passport can be issued because they cannot accept birth certificates from any state because of a few cases of fraud?

That no DMV in any state could issue any drivers licenses because of a few cases of fraud?

Ya, that will work well.




What would work well in my mind is that all 50 states require that ANY candidate for elective office from Dog Catcher to President be required to submit legal proof they meet the qualifications for that office. For Presidents and Vice Presidents that means birth record form the issuing state and proof of United States residence for the required time. Attached to it will be a legal release to that Secretary of State so that they can validate the information on the birth record and that it is valid. But birthers are so focused on Obama they can't see past their own nose. For example, Arizona writing a law that would reject the Official birth document of another state (and the one issued by Arizona btw) but yet accepting documentation that someone had the end of their pee-pee snipped off as proof of citizenship. Makes no sense.



>>>>

If the document is issued by the State of Hawaii under it's official seal, it is not "fraudulent". It's official. Not saying a copy posted to a web site is official either.

Are fake ID's still fraudulent even though it has a state seal?

No federal passport can be issued because they cannot accept birth certificates from any state because of a few cases of fraud?

That no DMV in any state could issue any drivers licenses because of a few cases of fraud?

Ya, that will work well.

Fraud and government corruption does happen, who's to say it didn't happen in Hawaii? The only proof to make sure this did not happen is to produce the long form.

 

[ABikerSailor]

Little Rebecca is a prime example of a birther. They don't believe facts, just their own delusions.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Little Rebecca is a prime example of a birther. They don't believe facts, just their own delusions.

and sea ***** shows that he's unaware that government officials can aprove fraudulent documents no matter how much proof he's shown.

 

[WorldWatcher]

If the document is issued by the State of Hawaii under it's official seal, it is not "fraudulent". It's official. Not saying a copy posted to a web site is official either.

Are fake ID's still fraudulent even though it has a state seal?

Of course not, notice I said "issued by the State of Hawaii under it's official seal". If I fly down to Tijuana Mexico and buy a set of identification papers, then those papers were not issued by the cognizant government authority. They are fake and therefore fraudulent.

Which is why I suggest candidates be required to submit documents issued under the seal of the issuing state along with legal authorization for the Secretary of States to verify the validity of those documents.

No federal passport can be issued because they cannot accept birth certificates from any state because of a few cases of fraud?

That no DMV in any state could issue any drivers licenses because of a few cases of fraud?

Ya, that will work well.

Fraud and government corruption does happen, who's to say it didn't happen in Hawaii? The only proof to make sure this did not happen is to produce the long form.

Wrong, that's what you want to happen, that is not "the only proof to make sure this did not happen".

Verification can occur of the required information with no problem. The candidate submits the required documentation along with a release (i.e. power of attorney) to act on the persons behalf to verify. For example Hawaiian Revisesd Statute 338-18(b)(7) Disclosure of Records states "A person or agency acting on behalf of the registrant;" is permitted to have access to information. With the official document presented AND release to act on the candidates behalf in an official capacity, then the applicable Secretary of State can verify that fraud has not occurred.


>>>>

 

[bigrebnc1775]

If the document is issued by the State of Hawaii under it's official seal, it is not "fraudulent". It's official. Not saying a copy posted to a web site is official either.

Are fake ID's still fraudulent even though it has a state seal?

Of course not, notice I said "issued by the State of Hawaii under it's official seal". If I fly down to Tijuana Mexico and buy a set of identification papers, then those papers were not issued by the cognizant government authority. They are fake and therefore fraudulent.

Which is why I suggest candidates be required to submit documents issued under the seal of the issuing state along with legal authorization for the Secretary of States to verify the validity of those documents.

No federal passport can be issued because they cannot accept birth certificates from any state because of a few cases of fraud?

That no DMV in any state could issue any drivers licenses because of a few cases of fraud?

Ya, that will work well.

Fraud and government corruption does happen, who's to say it didn't happen in Hawaii? The only proof to make sure this did not happen is to produce the long form.

Wrong, that's what you want to happen, that is not "the only proof to make sure this did not happen".

Verification can occur of the required information with no problem. The candidate submits the required documentation along with a release (i.e. power of attorney) to act on the persons behalf to verify. For example Hawaiian Revisesd Statute 338-18(b)(7) Disclosure of Records states "A person or agency acting on behalf of the registrant;" is permitted to have access to information. With the official document presented AND release to act on the candidates behalf in an official capacity, then the applicable Secretary of State can verify that fraud has not occurred.


>>>>

Of course not, notice I said "issued by the State of Hawaii under it's official seal". If I fly down to Tijuana Mexico and buy a set of identification papers, then those papers were not issued by the cognizant government authority. They are fake and therefore fraudulent.

To get an ID from North Carolina you would get it from the government, no need to fly down to Tijuana Mexico. So we agree even if a documet has a state seal and was issued by the state it still can be a fraud.

Verification can occur of the required information with no problem. The candidate submits the required documentation along with a release (i.e. power of attorney) to act on the persons behalf to verify. For example Hawaiian Revisesd Statute 338-18(b)(7) Disclosure of Records states "A person or agency acting on behalf of the registrant;" is permitted to have access to information. With the official document presented AND release to act on the candidates behalf in an official capacity, then the applicable Secretary of State can verify that fraud has not occurred.

Who verified the document? Was it a government offical? Hasn't it been proven they can and have issued fraudulent docuemnts?
Until they produce the short from that says it was accepted by the state registrar of 1961 thats all they have is a fraud.

 

[WorldWatcher]

Are fake ID's still fraudulent even though it has a state seal?

Of course not, notice I said "issued by the State of Hawaii under it's official seal". If I fly down to Tijuana Mexico and buy a set of identification papers, then those papers were not issued by the cognizant government authority. They are fake and therefore fraudulent.

Which is why I suggest candidates be required to submit documents issued under the seal of the issuing state along with legal authorization for the Secretary of States to verify the validity of those documents.





Wrong, that's what you want to happen, that is not "the only proof to make sure this did not happen".

Verification can occur of the required information with no problem. The candidate submits the required documentation along with a release (i.e. power of attorney) to act on the persons behalf to verify. For example Hawaiian Revisesd Statute 338-18(b)(7) Disclosure of Records states "A person or agency acting on behalf of the registrant;" is permitted to have access to information. With the official document presented AND release to act on the candidates behalf in an official capacity, then the applicable Secretary of State can verify that fraud has not occurred.


>>>>

Of course not, notice I said "issued by the State of Hawaii under it's official seal". If I fly down to Tijuana Mexico and buy a set of identification papers, then those papers were not issued by the cognizant government authority. They are fake and therefore fraudulent.

To get an ID from North Carolina you would get it from the government, no need to fly down to Tijuana Mexico. So we agree even if a documet has a state seal and was issued by the state it still can be a fraud.

Not what I said at all.

Verification can occur of the required information with no problem. The candidate submits the required documentation along with a release (i.e. power of attorney) to act on the persons behalf to verify. For example Hawaiian Revisesd Statute 338-18(b)(7) Disclosure of Records states "A person or agency acting on behalf of the registrant;" is permitted to have access to information. With the official document presented AND release to act on the candidates behalf in an official capacity, then the applicable Secretary of State can verify that fraud has not occurred.

Who verified the document? Was it a government offical? Hasn't it been proven they can and have issued fraudulent docuemnts?
Until they produce the short from that says it was accepted by the state registrar of 1961 thats all they have is a fraud.

I've not claimed that Obama's birth certificate was ever verified by a government official as part of the election process. No law in any of the 50 states at the time required Obama submit his birth record to any Secretary of State. In my mind his status is "unknown" as it pertains to the election process. Outside of that process officials from the State of Hawaii have verified that the information released in an unofficial manner is true, but that's beside the point.

The point is that all candidates for elective office should submit proof they meet the qualifications for such office so that election officials can verify them against established criteria. The system failed during the 2008 election because the system DID NOT REQUIRE the submission of such documents.


>>>>

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Of course not, notice I said "issued by the State of Hawaii under it's official seal". If I fly down to Tijuana Mexico and buy a set of identification papers, then those papers were not issued by the cognizant government authority. They are fake and therefore fraudulent.

Which is why I suggest candidates be required to submit documents issued under the seal of the issuing state along with legal authorization for the Secretary of States to verify the validity of those documents.





Wrong, that's what you want to happen, that is not "the only proof to make sure this did not happen".

Verification can occur of the required information with no problem. The candidate submits the required documentation along with a release (i.e. power of attorney) to act on the persons behalf to verify. For example Hawaiian Revisesd Statute 338-18(b)(7) Disclosure of Records states "A person or agency acting on behalf of the registrant;" is permitted to have access to information. With the official document presented AND release to act on the candidates behalf in an official capacity, then the applicable Secretary of State can verify that fraud has not occurred.


>>>>

To get an ID from North Carolina you would get it from the government, no need to fly down to Tijuana Mexico. So we agree even if a documet has a state seal and was issued by the state it still can be a fraud.

Not what I said at all.

Verification can occur of the required information with no problem. The candidate submits the required documentation along with a release (i.e. power of attorney) to act on the persons behalf to verify. For example Hawaiian Revisesd Statute 338-18(b)(7) Disclosure of Records states "A person or agency acting on behalf of the registrant;" is permitted to have access to information. With the official document presented AND release to act on the candidates behalf in an official capacity, then the applicable Secretary of State can verify that fraud has not occurred.

Who verified the document? Was it a government offical? Hasn't it been proven they can and have issued fraudulent docuemnts?
Until they produce the short from that says it was accepted by the state registrar of 1961 thats all they have is a fraud.

I've not claimed that Obama's birth certificate was ever verified by a government official as part of the election process. No law in any of the 50 states at the time required Obama submit his birth record to any Secretary of State. In my mind his status is "unknown" as it pertains to the election process. Outside of that process officials from the State of Hawaii have verified that the information released in an unofficial manner is true, but that's beside the point.

The point is that all candidates for elective office should submit proof they meet the qualifications for such office so that election officials can verify them against established criteria. The system failed during the 2008 election because the system DID NOT REQUIRE the submission of such documents.


>>>>

I've not claimed that Obama's birth certificate was ever verified by a government official as part of the election process.

Simple question for you to answer? Who verified the document? Was it a government offical? Hasn't it been proven they can and have issued fraudulent docuemnts?

Not what I said at all.

That was your intet to say that because it has a state sealk and certified by the state it cannot be a fraudulent document.

As I have already proven government officals can and have issued fradulent documents in the past.

 

[WorldWatcher]

To get an ID from North Carolina you would get it from the government, no need to fly down to Tijuana Mexico. So we agree even if a documet has a state seal and was issued by the state it still can be a fraud.

Not what I said at all.





I've not claimed that Obama's birth certificate was ever verified by a government official as part of the election process. No law in any of the 50 states at the time required Obama submit his birth record to any Secretary of State. In my mind his status is "unknown" as it pertains to the election process. Outside of that process officials from the State of Hawaii have verified that the information released in an unofficial manner is true, but that's beside the point.

The point is that all candidates for elective office should submit proof they meet the qualifications for such office so that election officials can verify them against established criteria. The system failed during the 2008 election because the system DID NOT REQUIRE the submission of such documents.


>>>>

I've not claimed that Obama's birth certificate was ever verified by a government official as part of the election process.

Simple question for you to answer? Who verified the document? Was it a government offical? Hasn't it been proven they can and have issued fraudulent docuemnts?

The "documents" has only been posted online, no one has verified it as it was not required to submitted to any Secretary of State for verification. THAT IS THE PROBLEM.

Not what I said at all.

That was your intet to say that because it has a state sealk and certified by the state it cannot be a fraudulent document.

As I have already proven government officals can and have issued fradulent documents in the past.

Not what I said. Just because a document has a seal, does not mean it is not fraudulent. If it is issued under the proper laws and procedures then it is not fraudulent, it is evidence as to the fact presented.

If I create a fraudulent document to look like an official one, then it is not issued under proper authority and it is fraudulent.

If I present a fraudulent birth certificate to the State of Virginia and obtain a drivers license, yes it is a valid drivers license. I officially have permission to drive from the State of Virginia. Another State does not have the authority to say - no you don't have authority from Virginia to drive. Now if the fact that I presented fraudulent documents to Virginia is discovered, then Virginia can revoke that drivers license and very likely prosecute me under the law for identity theft or forgery.



>>>>