On the topic of ethics: Gay television

[musicman]

Mr. Marbles:

Are you saying that the goals set forth in my mock Preamble sound reasonable? Do you think that they reflect a realistic understanding of human nature? Remember, writing a "mission statement" for a whole new civilization is serious business. It's wonderful to be idealistic, but, asking donkeys to fly is just a waste of everybody's time - yours, mine, and the donkey's.

 

[MrMarbles]

Mr. Marbles:

Are you saying that the goals set forth in my mock Preamble sound reasonable? Do you think that they reflect a realistic understanding of human nature? Remember, writing a "mission statement" for a whole new civilization is serious business. It's wonderful to be idealistic, but, asking donkeys to fly is just a waste of everybody's time - yours, mine, and the donkey's.

Well, maybe we should start small, like with cats, then work our way up to donkeys.

 

[musicman]

Great. Best of luck to you, sir.

 

[Isaac Brock]

Isaac: "Let it be clear that there was no welfare state in Rome during that era".

If you don't call free bread and free entertainment the ancient equivalent of a welfare state, I don't know what is. You've done an excellent job of detailing other causitive factors in the decline of both Roman and Greek civilizations. However, you've said nothing that would make me back off my original statements. Great civilizations are built through hard work,sacrifice, and strict adherence to a set of guiding principles. Invariably, though, this initial success gives way to laziness, stupidity, arrogance, and laxity in later generations. It then becomes a doomed civilization, and the surest sign that the end is near is the abandonment of the guiding moral principles upon which the once-strong society was founded.

Respectfully, you're considerably over-simplifying the situation. Romans gave bread and entertainment as a mean to pacify unemployed workers and create temporary stability in a time when a large military campaign ran rampant throughout Europe. The masses who became unemployed due to Rome's policies would revolt unless they had a reasonable distraction. Politically, it slowed the decay, not quickened it. However it was more like fixing a leak in the Hoover Dam with a few choice bandaids. Might work for a bit, but no a long term solution.

The empire wasn't in decline because they gave out free bread and had gladiator fights, it was in decline for the major economical and political reasons I listed previous. Rome didn't collapse because it became a hippy state, it collapsed under its own military and economic arrogance.

"The question of homosexuality in our historical context will be nothing more than a period question and a grain of sand in the expanse of history".

Sez you. Sorry - I couldn't resist that. Seriously, though, since you and I will be long dead by that time, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Agreed and I will have no way in proving that will happen. As a student of history though, I think i know where I would want to hedge my bets.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

I think Rome became too dependant on land conquest as a means of sustaining itself. America, "the modern Rome", uses economic development, free markets and professional specialization to create value. We are quite different from Old Rome. We are benevolent liberators, spreading the creative and life affirming forces of free market capitalism.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Utopia is impossible to obtain, but why not try, it's better then sitting on your ass letting the world go to hell in a hand basket.

A world free of all risks, and everything provided gratis is a nice dream, but the reality is someone must pay in some way or another for all this security. The ultimate adult realization that rational people come to is that it's best for individuals to ultimately be responsible for their own costs. It's very motivating. You libs, however, teach/are taught in a vicious cycle of collectivisit mind control that everything is an entitlement. And what's worse is that you actively villify entrepeneurs , though THEY are the ones who put together the profit generating/ need satisfying sytems that serve the dual positive purposes of satisfying human needs, providing jobs, and paying for government. Why do libs hate free enterprise?

 

[musicman]

Isaac:"The [Roman] empire wasn't in decline because they gave out free bread and had gladiator fights...".


Nor did I ever say it was. I said that laziness, arrogance, and stupidity are SYMPTOMATIC of a civilization which has abandoned it's guiding principles, and that, historically, this is a honking, flashing, and blaring sign that the end for that civilization is near. This is simple - not simplistic.

 

[MrMarbles]

A world free of all risks, and everything provided gratis is a nice dream, but the reality is someone must pay in some way or another for all this security. The ultimate adult realization that rational people come to is that it's best for individuals to ultimately be responsible for their own costs. It's very motivating. You libs, however, teach/are taught in a vicious cycle of collectivisit mind control that everything is an entitlement. And what's worse is that you actively villify entrepeneurs , though THEY are the ones who put together the profit generating/ need satisfying sytems that serve the dual positive purposes of satisfying human needs, providing jobs, and paying for government. Why do libs hate free enterprise?

Omigod, give it a rest already! I don't hate free enterprise, I don't mind working, i'm not looking for hand outs. I just want social programs in place to allow people the oppourtunity to get THEMSELVES back on there feet. To allow THEM the oppourtunity to succed. I'm not rying to take things away from you, or brainwash you. I just want to have the ability and means to help themselves. As of now, they don't and to say they do is a lie. To tkae US as an example, kids in Harlem do not have the same oppourtunities as ones in the Hamptons. I don't want to take away from the kids in the Hamptons, just allow the kids in Harlem the chance to get there. Liberalism is good, liberalism is forward thinking, liberalism allows for change and growth, conservativism is they way of keeping things the same, to strive for the past. Personnaly, I do not want to be transported back to the middle ages.


Anyway, we were talking about ethics and gay TV. Hey, who cares, let them show it. It dosen't bug me.

Ya for happy people!!

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Omigod, give it a rest already! I don't hate free enterprise, I don't mind working, i'm not looking for hand outs. I just want social programs in place to allow people the oppourtunity to get THEMSELVES back on there feet.

But those safety nets inevitably become hammocks, and costs tend to spiral when market conditions do not prevail.

To allow THEM the oppourtunity to succed. I'm not rying to take things away from you, or brainwash you. I just want to have the ability and means to help themselves.

With other people's money. That's stealing.

As of now, they don't and to say they do is a lie. To tkae US as an example, kids in Harlem do not have the same oppourtunities as ones in the Hamptons. I don't want to take away from the kids in the Hamptons, just allow the kids in Harlem the chance to get there.

They just need to master the queen's english and pull up their pants.

Liberalism is good, liberalism is forward thinking, liberalism allows for change and growth,

Liberalism is bad, liberalism is backward thinking, liberalism is the tyrannies of old, dressed up with a fresh coat of political rationalizations.

conservativism is they way of keeping things the same, to strive for the past. Personnaly, I do not want to be transported back to the middle ages.

Conservatism is a rational rediscovery of the timeless truths of human nature and the individual, and is a quantum evolutionary leap for mankind in that it shifts human competition from the realm of brute force to the realm of intellectuality.

Anyway, we were talking about ethics and gay TV. Hey, who cares, let them show it. It dosen't bug me.

Ya for happy people!!

The original topic is of no consequence!
:funnyface

 

[ScreamingEagle]

Mr. Marbles said: "I don't want to take away from the kids in the Hamptons, just allow the kids in Harlem the chance to get there."

They are allowed. Everybody has the chance. But not many make it to the Hamptons. Like about 99.9999 percent of the people. However you seem to have a Liberal method in mind on how to get there? Can you describe that Liberal method specifically? I have a hankering to move to the Hamptons.

 

[MrMarbles]

[

With other people's money. That's stealing

It's called taxes. You don't need to raise them, US seems to have plenty of money as is. Right now though they are 'stealing' your money to fight a war, instead they could 'steal' your money to better improve your living conditions.

Liberalism is bad, liberalism is backward thinking, liberalism is the tyrannies of old, dressed up with a fresh coat of political rationalizations.

Which tyrannies of old? US has used liberalism and socialism to get itself out of the depression. A crippling depression formed when ultra capitalist ways failed and almost destroyed the country.

Conservatism is a rational rediscovery of the timeless truths of human nature and the individual, and is a quantum evolutionary leap for mankind in that it shifts human competition from the realm of brute force to the realm of intellectuality

Rediscovery of human nature. What is human nature? I guess we must do whatever it takes to get ahead then. "Ok women, back to the kitchen". "Timmy is twelve already!? Time to send him to the mines".
"Me hungry, go hunt mighty elephant".

They are allowed. Everybody has the chance. But not many make it to the Hamptons. Like about 99.9999 percent of the people. However you seem to have a Liberal method in mind on how to get there? Can you describe that Liberal method specifically? I have a hankering to move to the Hamptons.

Well, lets try to properly funding public schools. Support after school programs, sport or art programs. Allow the kids to expand their minds and learn, instead of comdeming them to a life of gangs and street violence. Help their parents, so instead of having to work 12-14hr days, they work 8, and spend more time at home, raising their kids properly, and letting the streets do it for them. That is a way to start.

 

[musicman]

Mr. Marbles:

Which statement is closer to the truth?

1. Human beings are possesed of untapped capacities for love, reason, and brotherhood. Therefore, an ideal government would strive to help humanity rise to the better aspects of it's nature.

2. Human beings are essentialy selfish. Therefore, governments, being the creations of imperfect men, must - if left unchecked - degenerate into tyranny.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

[

It's called taxes. You don't need to raise them, US seems to have plenty of money as is. Right now though they are 'stealing' your money to fight a war, instead they could 'steal' your money to better improve your living conditions.

Funny. The libs here DO think we need to raise them. Are you telling me you support making bush's tax cuts permanent? Good for you. National security is something that SHOULD be done at the federal level. Improving my individual life is best left to me, the individual. Why is this so hard for you?

Which tyrannies of old? US has used liberalism and socialism to get itself out of the depression. A crippling depression formed when ultra capitalist ways failed and almost destroyed the country.

All tyrannies of old. Tyranny is tyranny. I in no way want ultracapitalism, or excessive margin buying. That's a straw man argument, unworthy of you.

Rediscovery of human nature. What is human nature? I guess we must do whatever it takes to get ahead then. "Ok women, back to the kitchen". "Timmy is twelve already!? Time to send him to the mines".
"Me hungry, go hunt mighty elephant".

Right, you libs believe there is no immutable human nature. your "blank slate" theories only go so far. I don't think self interest can be unlearned, nor should it be, your comedic dramatization notwithstanding. Individuality should be harnessed, not villified.

Well, lets try to properly funding public schools. Support after school programs, sport or art programs. Allow the kids to expand their minds and learn, instead of comdeming them to a life of gangs and street violence. Help their parents, so instead of having to work 12-14hr days, they work 8, and spend more time at home, raising their kids properly, and letting the streets do it for them. That is a way to start.

Our schools suck because the teachers are a bunch of libs who don't believe in standards or competition.

 

[chagan]

Hooooold on there skippy... it is NOT for those who adhere to "NATURE", and sexual practices as they were "meant to be", to explain to you butt worshipping queer supporters about anything. On the contrary flower boy, it is entirely up to YOU to explain to US why you think it is NOT "deviant, dangerous, and immoral".

Now, start explaining. The burden is your's. You're the one fighting nature, and the moral fabric of mankind.

For one thing, I am not a flower boy. I am a woman. So now you know how to address me.

I don't think that homosexuality is deviant, dangerous, or immoral because it doesn't affect me in that way.

Let me ask all you men on this thread a question. When you see two women getting it on, does it turn you on?

Is that deviant, dangerous, and immoral?

You can all lie to me if you want but I thought that I would throw that our to you all holier than thou people.

 

[Hobbit]

For one thing, I am not a flower boy. I am a woman. So now you know how to address me.

Okay, flower woman.

I don't think that homosexuality is deviant, dangerous, or immoral because it doesn't affect me in that way.

The, "It doesn't affect me that way," argument isnt' valid. It's the same I hear all the time from alcoholics and drug addicts who won't admit they have a problem.

Let me ask all you men on this thread a question. When you see two women getting it on, does it turn you on?

I wouldn't know. I divert my eyes from porn in order to keep it from corrupting my mind.

Is that deviant, dangerous, and immoral?

Quite. Porn in all forms, whether gay or straight, is at the very least dangerous and immoral, although deviant is a label losing its legitimacy in college students, since SO MANY of them look at porn. Porn is a vile industry that exploits people, is dangerous to its wokers (hear about the California porn star AIDS epidemic?), and corrupts the consumers view of the opposite sex. Porn teaches people, usually men, that lovers are nothing but sex objects and it promotes all kinds of promiscuity, not to mention the fact that it heightens hormone levels, making the person more likely to engage in sexual activity.

You can all lie to me if you want but I thought that I would throw that our to you all holier than thou people.

Ahem, I won't lie and assuming that I would have to lie in order to disagree with you is quite arrogant, miss holier than thou who happens to be battling for the oh so righteous cause of homosexuality. Have you ever thought about the fact that the same people you think are pompous MIGHT find you JUST AS POMPOUS due to the fact that you assume that you are in the right. I have thousands of years of religion and tradition on my side. All you've got is rhetoric and a twisted idea of civil rights.

Now, if you wanna 'get it on' with another chick, there's nothing I can do to stop you, but that doesn't mean I have to like it, and it certainly doesn't mean I will EVER see your actions as anything other than a moral atrocity.

If you'd like to see my arguements against homosexuality, you can do a search. I've repeated myself too many times today already. Right now, I'm just commenting on your attitude (not to mention the hypocrisy of calling everyone else "holier than thou").

 

[chagan]

Ahem, I won't lie and assuming that I would have to lie in order to disagree with you is quite arrogant, miss holier than thou who happens to be battling for the oh so righteous cause of homosexuality. Have you ever thought about the fact that the same people you think are pompous MIGHT find you JUST AS POMPOUS due to the fact that you assume that you are in the right. I have thousands of years of religion and tradition on my side. All you've got is rhetoric and a twisted idea of civil rights.

When I said don't lie, I was talking to the men who say that they don't watch porn when in reality they do. There is probably at least one person who is reading this thread that is into porn. That is who I was refering to. Sorry if I offended you.

Now, if you wanna 'get it on' with another chick, there's nothing I can do to stop you, but that doesn't mean I have to like it, and it certainly doesn't mean I will EVER see your actions as anything other than a moral atrocity.

I myself am not gay. I am a happily married heterosexual. But I have a couple of friends who are gay and I think that they should be able to get married like the rest of us if they choose to.

 

[Hobbit]

When I said don't lie, I was talking to the men who say that they don't watch porn when in reality they do. There is probably at least one person who is reading this thread that is into porn. That is who I was refering to. Sorry if I offended you.




I myself am not gay. I am a happily married heterosexual. But I have a couple of friends who are gay and I think that they should be able to get married like the rest of us if they choose to.

Points taken. Misunderstandings resolved. Have a nice day.

 

[Isaac Brock]

Okay, flower woman.
Quite. Porn in all forms, whether gay or straight, is at the very least dangerous and immoral, although deviant is a label losing its legitimacy in college students, since SO MANY of them look at porn. Porn is a vile industry that exploits people, is dangerous to its wokers (hear about the California porn star AIDS epidemic?), and corrupts the consumers view of the opposite sex. Porn teaches people, usually men, that lovers are nothing but sex objects and it promotes all kinds of promiscuity, not to mention the fact that it heightens hormone levels, making the person more likely to engage in sexual activity.

Should we outlaw the pornography industry?

 

[MrMarbles]

Funny. The libs here DO think we need to raise them. Are you telling me you support making bush's tax cuts permanent? Good for you. National security is something that SHOULD be done at the federal level. Improving my individual life is best left to me, the individual. Why is this so hard for you?

You can't cut taxes, you can freeze them, and bring them down, but outright cutting them dosen't work. Things the gov't need to spend money, dosen't get any cheaper, why shut off your revenue, whil you only get more expenses?
Improving your individual life yourself is fine, just allow everyone the right to do it aswell. Life is like a game, a race, it's just not a fair race. The problem is you have shoes to race in and some people have bare feet, why not supply some shoes, so the can have a chance at progressing.

All tyrannies of old. Tyranny is tyranny. I in no way want ultracapitalism, or excessive margin buying. That's a straw man argument, unworthy of you.

Which tyrannies have used liberalism? Not communism, or even socilasim, but liberalism. All tyrannies is a very broad term. And certain regims can be argued either way. But which tyrannies?

So far, denouncing ideas with no real counter point has really shwon your ability to utilize the 'straw man arguement' to it's full extent. Do you even know what it means?

Right, you libs believe there is no immutable human nature. your "blank slate" theories only go so far. I don't think self interest can be unlearned, nor should it be, your comedic dramatization notwithstanding. Individuality should be harnessed, not villified.

What is human nature then? Is it primarily for self interest? Are we all just greedy pigs, trying to consume more then the next? Self interest cannot be unlearned, but people have definetly tried. But where does self interest end, and love for your fellow man begin (get it?, fellow man, it's a gay thread, get it?). Individuality very important to everyone. Thats why i would never live in the suburbs.

Our schools suck because the teachers are a bunch of libs who don't believe in standards or competition.

See, perfect example of 'straw man'. How can all teachers be liberal? If liberals don't have any standards, how would you identify a liberal? And where is there any proof that liberals don't like competiton?

Your counter to my statement was just ridiculous caricature of my arguement, if no facts or even somewhat real ideas. You might want to check your boots.

 

[Hobbit]

Should we outlaw the pornography industry?

It wouldn't hurt my feelings, but it's not going to happen.