On so-called socialised medicine

[Said1]

True all of these "social programs" that were supposed to be a temporary safety net for a small minority of truly needy people, has become a permanent entitlement to a very large number of otherwise able bodied people.
And we know why..Votes

Not only social programs, other industry protection through things such as subsidies. Socialism really is a culture value. "Social democracies" (or whatever you want to call them) tend to trust the government over private industry - talk aboot brainwashing.

Even down to the provincial level, in some cases people don't trust the feds, but trust the province to provide and protect on all levels. Go figure.

 

[Bonnie]

Not only social programs, other industry protection through things such as subsidies. Socialism really is a culture value. "Social democracies" (or whatever you want to call them) tend to trust the government over private industry - talk aboot brainwashing.

Even down to the provincial level, in some cases people don't trust the feds, but trust the province to provide and protect on all levels. Go figure.

So well said!! Can't rep ya yet

 

[Diuretic]

No one here in this country is denied health treatment, including illegal immigrants. So essentially we already have socialised medicine. Don't know what more we can do??

Okay, that seems quite reasonable.

Government programs as you call them, or redistrubtion of wealth has taken in over 4 trillion dollars over the last 20 to 30 years and social problems, the poor and government waste has increased 10 times. Little hard to squeeze more blood out of that rock??

I think that's something for the big government thread.

 

[Diuretic]

Yes I do equate it with communism. Socialist = Communist. Even if it was funded with tax payers money, you're still taking money out of my pocket to pay for someone else. Or vise versa, and that sir, pure and simple, is commumism. Take from ME, and give it to someone ELSE.

So please, tell Me, how this ISN'T commumism. We can arm wrestle later.

Socialist isn't = Communist, there's a huge difference.

Taxation isn't communism. If taxation is communism then you're living in a communist country and so am I. Taxation finances governments. Therefore all governments must be communist.

 

[Diuretic]

If socialism works so well, then explain to me why it is failing in France, Britain, Germany, and South America? What socialism does do is create a permanent dependent class within society, it takes away all incentive to excel and be self sufficient. Sociaist societies fall behind in the global market because eventually you have too many in the wagon and not enough people able to pull the wagon.

France doesn't have a socialist government, nor does Britain, nor does Germany. South America is a continent, which governments are socialist and which are failing?

Capitalism creates a permanent dependent class within society. It does this to keep the cost of labour down. That permanent dependent class is given state welfare, obtained from taxation, to keep them alive and to stop them from revolting against the state. Capitalist societies suffer from booms and busts and periodically go through worldwide depressions which are alleviated by wars.

There we are. Slogans everywhere.

 

[nosarcasm]

The universal healthcare system seems to be more efficient in treating people.
Life expectation is higher in Germany/UK France then in the US.
For research development the US system is more efficient since companies (and medical personal) have higher profits (earnings).

 

[Dr Grump]

If socialism works so well, then explain to me why it is failing in France, Britain, Germany, and South America? What socialism does do is create a permanent dependent class within society, it takes away all incentive to excel and be self sufficient. Sociaist societies fall behind in the global market because eventually you have too many in the wagon and not enough people able to pull the wagon.

How is it failing in Britain, France and Germany? Are you saying the US doesn't have a permanent dependent class (outside of illegal aliens)?

 

[nukeman]

Apologies if this has been discussed before. But unless a moderator drops the bomb on me I want to bring it up.

I'll tell you up front that I support a medical system that is largely funded by taxpayers. So why do many Americans, usually on the conservative side of politics, hate it so passionately? What's wrong with taxpayer-funded medical services?

To answer your question as to why most Americans do not like socialized medicine one only need to look at how the US government runs the VA system. It as abhorent at best and the most mismannaged system in healthcare in the US.

I have worked in health care for 17 years and I have been through both the private sector and the VA system.

If the US was to socialize medicine most new techniques, drugs, and equipment would cease to be developed this would be due to the simple fact of no incentive. Money is a major motivator for inventivness. Without the incentive to come up with the next miracle drug or latest imaging equipment companies will not put forth the funds for research and development.

You have some socialized countries that make advancements in medicine but this is usualy secondary to the development of new equipment and techniques developed in the US. Not to blow our own horn but the world health stuation would be a very sad state if the US went to a socialized program.

I would also like to comment that it is "illegal" to be denied medical care based on your inability to pay. This is a point of contention with people who are here illegaly. We are forced to care for them without any type of compensation and no way to collect..

You will be hard pressed to find a more open and available health system in the world. Everyone who walks into an ER is treated exactly the same because no one working on them have a clue if they are paying or not...

You are able to get almost all testing same day or next day in the US this includeds minor surgery and elective procedures.

I have a sister-in-law in Finnland and she had to wait 2 months for an MRI that is avalaible here same day. Her surgery was scheduled 2 months after that. this is total garbage her situation would have been completly taken care of here in less than a week including surgery.

The US is to large for socialized medicine and the people would never sit for the restriction placed on them. Just look at how the scream with an HMO that limitts where they can go....

 

[Diuretic]

To answer your question as to why most Americans do not like socialized medicine one only need to look at how the US government runs the VA system. It as abhorent at best and the most mismannaged system in healthcare in the US.

Can it be improved? I mean that seriously. Is it chronically underfunded? If the problems are because of lack of funding then there's only one answer to improve it and that's to put more money into it. Now the US is hardly broke so if that would fix it then it should be done, should it not?

I have worked in health care for 17 years and I have been through both the private sector and the VA system.

Noted.

If the US was to socialize medicine most new techniques, drugs, and equipment would cease to be developed this would be due to the simple fact of no incentive. Money is a major motivator for inventivness. Without the incentive to come up with the next miracle drug or latest imaging equipment companies will not put forth the funds for research and development.

The default model in mixed economies is that the government has to step in and sort things out where the private sector sees no profit. I take your point that pharmaceuticals, as an example, take a huge amount of money to research and produce and there's a long-term investment by pharmaceutical companies involved. But I know an analytical chemist who works for one of our univesrsities and he's doing research work on a particular artificial opiate through his university, the work is being funded by a pharmaceutical company. If the government funds it because a pharmaceutical company won't, what's the problem?

You have some socialized countries that make advancements in medicine but this is usualy secondary to the development of new equipment and techniques developed in the US. Not to blow our own horn but the world health stuation would be a very sad state if the US went to a socialized program.

I don't think it would but I agree the US is right in the vanguard when it comes to scientific/medical research, no denying that for a moment. And the care in your country is probably the best in the world. You can see plenty of tv programmes in our country where a child is being sent o the States for treatment not available here.

I would also like to comment that it is "illegal" to be denied medical care based on your inability to pay. This is a point of contention with people who are here illegaly. We are forced to care for them without any type of compensation and no way to collect..

Given your experience and knowledge in the industry I'll take that point as being made.

You will be hard pressed to find a more open and available health system in the world. Everyone who walks into an ER is treated exactly the same because no one working on them have a clue if they are paying or not...

Well speaking for our system only, the same applies but it's good to know that is the case in the States.

You are able to get almost all testing same day or next day in the US this includeds minor surgery and elective procedures.

I'm not making direct comparisons but in our system testing yes, minor surgery probably, elective surgery - no, we wouldn't do it in that time frame I think.

I have a sister-in-law in Finnland and she had to wait 2 months for an MRI that is avalaible here same day. Her surgery was scheduled 2 months after that. this is total garbage her situation would have been completly taken care of here in less than a week including surgery.

MRI work is contentious here due to expense and availability.

The US is to large for socialized medicine and the people would never sit for the restriction placed on them. Just look at how the scream with an HMO that limitts where they can go....

Fair comment, I don't live there, I don't know the industry so, point taken.

That was informative, thank you.

 

[CSM]

This ought to go over really well...

http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/05/15/britain.chavez/index.html

LUXEMBOURG (Reuters) -- National Health Service patients who travel abroad for treatment must be reimbursed if they faced an "undue delay" for treatment in Britain, the European Court ruled on Tuesday.

The verdict may have serious cost implications for Britain's already cash-strapped NHS.

Makes you wonder just how well socialized medicine really works and what is the breaking point for any given country. The implications raised by the involvement of the European Court of Justice are rather disturbing as well...looks like any nation that belongs to the EU has forfeited their sovereignty.