Oklahoma/Utah 10th Circuit May Lean To State Choice On Gay Marriage

[JoeB131]

[
Ahh and the singularity angle rears its head again.

We aren't talking about what normalizing a grotesque and disfiguring manifestation of deep mental issues will do to just one person here or there. We are talking about what society's stamp of approval as a WHOLE on the practice means to the next few generations and where that will lead all of us.

I for one do not want to see a serious mental condition be called, held out and represented to youngsters en masse, as "normal, healthy, OK". I'm not keen to see stark mental illness become "normal" in any human society. That's how barbaric practices take root and overtake a society. Check your history books for examples.

Guy, get a grip. First of all, they don't approve sex-reassignment surgery after there has been a thorough evaluation by a psychiatrist.

second, only about 250 of these operations are performed in the US per year. It's not like it's an epidemic.

 

[Silhouette]

again, are you this upset bout plastic surgery, boob jobs, hair transplants or a lot of other things people do to themselves to not be what nature made them?

Or do you only get upset when people do surgical things to their junk?

Plastic surgery doesn't change ones gender. One's gender is determined by DNA, the presence or absence of a womb or penis & testicles at birth. The other stuff is enhancement. And for the record, no, I don't approve of vanity unless there is horrible disfiguring like a cleft palate or burn scars...things of that nature.

I am absolutely against amputation of healthy organs and the rendering thereby of a person as sexually numb and with urinary incontinence all in an assist to their delusions that they aren't what gender they were born as. Mental issues aren't solved by amputating healthy organs.

Genetics, and Genitals, do not make Gender. The organ that works that out is the real sex organ, the brain. The body just moves it around.

Your concerns, like your knowledge of this, are invalid.

Where are your sources?

Guy, get a grip. First of all, they don't approve sex-reassignment surgery after there has been a thorough evaluation by a psychiatrist.

second, only about 250 of these operations are performed in the US per year. It's not like it's an epidemic.

Just one assisted mutilation of a person's healthy body parts is a crime. No psychaitrist with a hair of ethical reproach would EVER clear a person to amputate healthy body parts in order to role-play their delusion that they are the gender they aren't. Any person so doing should have their license to practice revoked and should serve jail time.

 

[PaintMyHouse]

Plastic surgery doesn't change ones gender. One's gender is determined by DNA, the presence or absence of a womb or penis & testicles at birth. The other stuff is enhancement. And for the record, no, I don't approve of vanity unless there is horrible disfiguring like a cleft palate or burn scars...things of that nature.

I am absolutely against amputation of healthy organs and the rendering thereby of a person as sexually numb and with urinary incontinence all in an assist to their delusions that they aren't what gender they were born as. Mental issues aren't solved by amputating healthy organs.

Genetics, and Genitals, do not make Gender. The organ that works that out is the real sex organ, the brain. The body just moves it around.

Your concerns, like your knowledge of this, are invalid.

Where are your sources?

In this case it's my educated mind that has been following such things for 40 years now. Educated yourself.

 

[JoeB131]

[

Guy, get a grip. First of all, they don't approve sex-reassignment surgery after there has been a thorough evaluation by a psychiatrist.

second, only about 250 of these operations are performed in the US per year. It's not like it's an epidemic.

Just one assisted mutilation of a person's healthy body parts is a crime. No psychaitrist with a hair of ethical reproach would EVER clear a person to amputate healthy body parts in order to role-play their delusion that they are the gender they aren't. Any person so doing should have their license to practice revoked and should serve jail time.

250 people get sex reassignment surgery a year.

400,000 women get breast augmentation surgery a year.

Guess which one Sil is upset about.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Marriage equality for who exactly? What is "LGBT" and why is it limited only to these ways of deviant behaviors? What about polygamy? Is "two" a sacred word of marriage that must be preserved while all other traditional US parameters to the definition are fair game to dissolve? Why? Why the arrangement of adults and not the number? And so on. Good luck! You think this Court is going to saddle Utah with polygamy as a matter of law. My, you are optimistic

(1) Marriage equality for who and "what" have been answered over and over, so you don't "get just once more." (2) The same applies to LBGT, other than to suggest that heterosexuality is not associated with "deviant" behavior is a foolish assumption. (3) The issue of polygamy is not part of the scope of this discussion. (4) I have not said that I think that "this Court is going to saddle Utah with polygamy as a matter of law"; you have. (5) I am ever optimistic about the American experiment.

 

[Silhouette]

[

Guy, get a grip. First of all, they don't approve sex-reassignment surgery after there has been a thorough evaluation by a psychiatrist.

second, only about 250 of these operations are performed in the US per year. It's not like it's an epidemic.

Just one assisted mutilation of a person's healthy body parts is a crime. No psychaitrist with a hair of ethical reproach would EVER clear a person to amputate healthy body parts in order to role-play their delusion that they are the gender they aren't. Any person so doing should have their license to practice revoked and should serve jail time.

250 people get sex reassignment surgery a year.

400,000 women get breast augmentation surgery a year.

Guess which one Sil is upset about.

Both. Both are pursuits of mentally ill people trying to be some icon of some stereotype they fancy themselves but are not. That there has been a longstanding "medical" industry by "doctors" willing to indulge the mentally ill for profit does not legitimize the practice. A longstanding problem doesn't become a virtue by the passage of time.. nor by legislating falsehoods and mental disease into "truths and sanity"..

An ugly pig is an ugly pig, no matter how long it has been wearing lipstick for, or how many people keep applying new layers of lipstick to it.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

[

Just one assisted mutilation of a person's healthy body parts is a crime. No psychaitrist with a hair of ethical reproach would EVER clear a person to amputate healthy body parts in order to role-play their delusion that they are the gender they aren't. Any person so doing should have their license to practice revoked and should serve jail time.

250 people get sex reassignment surgery a year.

400,000 women get breast augmentation surgery a year.

Guess which one Sil is upset about.

Both. Both are pursuits of mentally ill people trying to be some icon of some stereotype they fancy themselves but are not.

It's idiocy to get upset about either.

 

[Silhouette]

250 people get sex reassignment surgery a year.

400,000 women get breast augmentation surgery a year.

Guess which one Sil is upset about.

Both. Both are pursuits of mentally ill people trying to be some icon of some stereotype they fancy themselves but are not.

It's idiocy to get upset about either.

It is beyond idiocy and into the realm of crime to hold out to generations of impressionable youngsters that old mistakes have now become "healthy" with the passage of time..

 

[JakeStarkey]

Both. Both are pursuits of mentally ill people trying to be some icon of some stereotype they fancy themselves but are not.

It's idiocy to get upset about either.

It is beyond idiocy and into the realm of crime to hold out to generations of impressionable youngsters that old mistakes have now become "healthy" with the passage of time..

Sil, frome where does your cultural fascism develop?

 

[Silhouette]

It's idiocy to get upset about either.

It is beyond idiocy and into the realm of crime to hold out to generations of impressionable youngsters that old mistakes have now become "healthy" with the passage of time..

Sil, frome where does your cultural fascism develop?

Wisdom isn't fascism. You don't call something that is mentally ill "sane". No matter who has done a coup on the APA. They're hitting a brick wall with the transsexual butchershop platform for "curing mental illness with a scalpel."...

People who have licenses to practice medicine and psychiatrists must have their licenses revoked if they do this to an otherwise healthy set of genital/urinary/reproductive organs:

You do this, you lose your license to practice tending to the mentally and physically ill. Period. That isn't fascism. That's obvious common sense in the prevention of unnecessary mutilation of another suffering and mentally ill person. Typically, the butchered never find peace and many of them try to revert back to their original gender, after being rendered incontinent and sexually numb for life by their "doctors" and "psychiatrists" assistance. And because the damage is already done, they sink even deeper into a depression which was the cause of all of it in the first place. The genital area as you can imagine is loaded with sensitive nerve endings which are cut/amputated. I hear the pain in post op recovery is beyond anything you could imagine. It eventually dissipates into a general numbness. Like any amputated limb would.

Malpractice anyone?

 

[JakeStarkey]

You are not wise and your desire to control the freedom and liberty of others is indeed fascistic.

 

[Silhouette]

I beg to differ [see my last post]

 

[JakeStarkey]

You can beg to differ all you want and post what you are posting all you want, and with all that your desire to control the liberty and freedom of others is fascistic

 

[Silhouette]

The liberty and freedom of others stops at the threshold of where harm to others is done.

If you want to "go there"....doctors and psychiatrists' "liberty and freedom" does not extend to creating an industry of butchery using a scalpel as a substitute for a therapist's couch. I'm all for liberty and freedom too, when it does not result in the harm of liberty and freedom of others. Especially those unaware that they have a choice [like the mentally ill] and who are being led astray by stronger and more sinister people.

We must protect the mentally ill and children from the "freedom and liberty" of their would-be exploiters.

And hence why I post exhaustively on this subject. I had a friend who died precisely because as a child, his liberty and freedom to not be assaulted by a same-gendered adult perp led to his liberty and freedom to be free of mental illness being compromised. The liberty and freedom of another gay man with HIV who didn't use protection with him resulted in him getting sick. Then as his mental and physical breakdown progressed, he went out in the spirit of "liberty and freedom" and proceeded to have unprotected sex with as many of those who resembled his original assailant. And thus the cycle of sinister adult "liberty and freedom" went full circle, in a most horrible way.

Your liberty and freedom does not allow you, for instance, to require children in schools in California to celebrate a known and documented sexual predator of teen homeless boys [May 22nd this month actually]. Your liberty and freedom does not allow you to teach or hold out to children that the main vector for the plague of HIV/AIDS [sex with the lower digestive tract as an artificial vagina], anal sex, is "healthy, OK, normal"... [See "fisting" or "fistgate" with education czar Kevin Jennings and GLSEN...google it...]

Your liberty and freedom to feed the fires of the mentally ill and to exploit the plight and vulnerabilities of the young and impressionable are not your liberty and freedom at all. Like a thief who steals the innocence of children and the sanity of adults who were once children assaulted, you are not at liberty to encourage the flourishing of the conditions that brought about their suffering in the first place. Thieves are not at "liberty", nor do they have the "freedom" to steal what belongs to others. [See the photos in post #170]

Notice Paintmyhouse below is trying to change the subject because he feels threatened by it. Hey Paintmyhouse, is it "always" the case that a person who "doctors" take the knife to in order to complete their mental delusion that they're another gender, that they are some genetic anomoly other than XX Xy? Hint: the answer is "no". In fact, the vast majority of sex butcherings are done to completely otherwise normal XX Xy individuals, females and males respectively.

 

[PaintMyHouse]

Sil, is XX female and XY male, always?

 

[Silhouette]

THE COLORADO INDEPENDENT
Tenth Circuit judges have what they need in gay-marriage cases

The hearings are over. A decision may come by June.

The plaintiffs, two longtime lesbian couples from Tulsa — Mary Bishop and Sharon Baldwin and Susan Barton and Gay Phillips — have sued Tulsa County Clerk Sally Smith. Jim Campbell, arguing on defense of Clerk Smith, said the couples have to find someone else to sue partly because Smith has no power to address their complaint. He said Smith can’t change the law and that no couples are looking to her to recognize their out-of-state marriages.

The judges — Jerome Holmes, Paul Kelly and Carlos Lucero — took turns peppering Campbell with questions.

“But don’t we need a concrete problem to consider?” asked Judge Kelly, suggesting that a clerk who issues marriage licenses and who in 2009 denied the plaintiffs a marriage license would be the right person to sue.
Campbell cited an earlier district court ruling that said the plaintiffs should look to target some other state official. Judge Holmes’ eyes grew wide.

“Why wouldn’t the clerk be the face of the judiciary for the purpose of the case?” he asked. “This is us. The Tenth Circuit made this decision. Shouldn’t our decision [telling the plaintiffs] to sue the clerk overtake any [lower] district court’s ruling?” ...

...When the couples originally filed their suit in 2004, weeks after Oklahomans voted for a state ban on gay marriage, they targeted the governor and the state attorney general. After years of legal back and forth, the case in 2009 came to the Tenth Circuit Court of Appeals, where an earlier three-judge panel told them, in effect, they couldn’t sue the state executives, that the governor and the attorney general had only tangential jurisdiction on marriage. They had to sue a clerk...

...Court watchers expect the Tenth Circuit panel to issue a ruling on the Utah and Oklahoma cases this summer. The circuit hears cases from a conservative middle- and mountain-west region that includes, Colorado, Kansas, New Mexico, Oklahoma, Utah and Wyoming.

If the panel decides in favor of the plaintiffs and against gay-marriage bans, Colorado’s 2006 ban also would be invalidated. States attorneys in Colorado as well as in the rest of the states of the Tenth Circuit would likely appeal such a decision to the U.S. Supreme Court, setting up a final legal showdown.

Tenth Circuit judges have what they need in gay-marriage cases | The Colorado Independent

Now this gets interesting...

When the ambiguity surrounding Prop 8 Decision happened last Summer in 2013, a clerk from San Diego, CA sued for clarity on the law, stating that he needed guidance from his superiors on whether or not the lawfully binding initiative Prop 8, written still as law to this day, should guide his issuance or denial of marriage licenses.

That clerk was shut down, legally. They just simply denied him the ability to have clarity in his job. I would argue on his behalf that this means he is the official fall-guy for the Prop 8 ambiguity...as are all clerks who find themselves wanting to follow the Will of the People in Law in their state, but being told to defy that will in practice and go ahead and issue marriage licenses that, by the definition handed down from the DOMA decision, WERE AND ARE ILLEGAL!

This catch-22 for county clerks is going to be interesting to watch. They are being held out as "OK to sue" but at the same time are being denied their rights to sue to save themselves from being sued!! ...or worse, sued by the People for dereliction of duty and defiance of their Oath.

If the clerk from San Diego is denied the ability to sue his superiors for clarity on the law, based on all this conflicting legal haze, then nobody should be able to sue a clerk for simply carrying out their legally mandated duty to uphold the Law of their state that was duly enacted a la Windsor 2013.

WTF?

The San Diego County Clerk, Ernest J. Dronenburg, Jr., has filed what is now the third lawsuit attempting to reinstate California’s Proposition 8 banning same-sex marriage. Apparently he will be joined by suits from 19 more of the 58 county clerks, who are asking the California Supreme Court to take a very narrow reading of the federal injunction against the measure left in place after the U.S. Supreme Court decision in June.

Dronenburg is represented by Chuck LiMandri of the Freedom of Conscience Defense Fund, which is also defending ex-gay therapy in New Jersey. One of the claims made in the petition is that Dronenburg is personally injured by having to marry same-sex couples:

Petitioner is suffering, and will continue to suffer, irreparable injury and damage unless this Court requires Respondents to execute their supervisory duties, which do not include control over county clerks issuing marriage licenses, consistent with state law limitations.

Petitioner is suffering, and will continue to suffer, irreparable injury and damage unless this Court issues an immediate temporary stay during the pendency of these writ proceedings (1) that orders Respondents not to enforce the State Registrar’s directive commanding county clerks to issue marriage licenses contrary to state law defining marriage as the union between one man and one woman, and (2) that direct Petitioner to refrain from issuing marriage licenses contrary to state law defining marriage as the union between one man and one woman until this Court settles the important issues raised in this Petition. http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2013/...county-clerk-sues-to-reinstate-proposition-8/

 

[JakeStarkey]

I had a friend who died precisely because as a child, his liberty and freedom to not be assaulted by a same-gendered adult perp led to his liberty and freedom to be free of mental illness being compromised.

Hope you go after the hetero abusers just as hard, because there are many more of them and they cause many more casualities.

 

[Silhouette]

I had a friend who died precisely because as a child, his liberty and freedom to not be assaulted by a same-gendered adult perp led to his liberty and freedom to be free of mental illness being compromised.

Hope you go after the hetero abusers just as hard, because there are many more of them and they cause many more casualities.

Of course I do. But there are many more of them per capita in the gay population. Like 1/3 OF ALL molestations are done by a same-sexed perp; where gays only are at most 5%of the overall population. Pretty impressive numbers there. It's just easier to focus on a tiny little group of people that are committing 1/3 of all of a specific type of crime..

What do you think about the double-jeopardy of county clerks when it comes to the legality or lack thereof of gay marriage licensing?

 

[PaintMyHouse]

Sil, is XX female and XY male, always?

So Sil has no answer on this very basic question? Interesting.

 

[Silhouette]

You read where I answered.