Oceans will be drastically different by 2100

[mamooth]

Have fun screaming at the sky, denialists. The world has moved on without you. Catch up or stay behind, your choice. And understand that if you keep obeying your cult's orders to auto-disagree with the intelligent people, you're going to keep being wrong about everything.

 

[westwall]

Have fun screaming at the sky, denialists. The world has moved on without you. Catch up or stay behind, your choice. And understand that if you keep obeying your cult's orders to auto-disagree with the intelligent people, you're going to keep being wrong about everything.

Sure thing admiral... It seems the rest of the world can't hear you anymore...

New Comstock Wind Energy Project Canceled

New Comstock Wind Energy Project Canceled - Sustainability: Energy

Pennsylvania Renewable Energy festival canceled

Pennsylvania Renewable Energy festival canceled - Morning Call


Two Steps Forward, One Back: Ontario Cancels Feed-in Tariffs for Large Projects

Two Steps Forward, One Back: Ontario Cancels Feed-in Tariffs for Large Projects

And on and on. "Sustainable" projects are being cancelled all over the world blind boy. Seems it's YOU who is being left behind.

 

[flacaltenn]

I am so bummed at having that Renewable Festival cancelled...
Those bagel dogs were the bomb..

And the CO2-free local brews just can't be beat...

 

[mamooth]

Flac, want to tell us again how the oyster species that has been mass-farmed on the Pacific coast for 90 years or so is really a new arrival?

Funny how they never had those mass die offs during upwellings in the previous 90 years. I'm sure, however, the socialists are involved somehow. They got to the oyster farmers, somehow, and converted them to socialism.

 

[westwall]

Flac, want to tell us again how the oyster species that has been mass-farmed on the Pacific coast for 90 years or so is really a new arrival?

Funny how they never had those mass die offs during upwellings in the previous 90 years. I'm sure, however, the socialists are involved somehow. They got to the oyster farmers, somehow, and converted them to socialism.

What the hell, are you blind as well as stupid? There have been papers on it going back at least to the 1970's.

 

[Abraham3]

Flac, want to tell us again how the oyster species that has been mass-farmed on the Pacific coast for 90 years or so is really a new arrival?

Funny how they never had those mass die offs during upwellings in the previous 90 years. I'm sure, however, the socialists are involved somehow. They got to the oyster farmers, somehow, and converted them to socialism.

What the hell, are you blind as well as stupid? There have been papers on it going back at least to the 1970's.

Then you should have dozens of links at the ready. Let's see 'em.

 

[flacaltenn]

Flac, want to tell us again how the oyster species that has been mass-farmed on the Pacific coast for 90 years or so is really a new arrival?

Funny how they never had those mass die offs during upwellings in the previous 90 years. I'm sure, however, the socialists are involved somehow. They got to the oyster farmers, somehow, and converted them to socialism.

Hey you incredibly insolent moron. I dont lie.

look up C. Gigas on google and apologize.

People who are as topically unprepared as you two ought to be paying us to educate you.

 

[flacaltenn]

http://www.nwrc.usgs.gov/wdb/pub/species_profiles/82_11-085.pdf

Geographic Range: Morro Bay,
California, t o northern B r i t i s h
Columbia; Japan (Quayle 1960; Fitch
1953). Quayle (1969a) reported
t h a t breeding occurs natural l y only
between Willapa Harbour ( l a t . 46O
N.) and Pendrell Sound ( l a t . 50°
N. ) Consistent breeding occurs
only i n Dabob and Quilcene Bays
i n Washington and Pendrell Sound
and Pipestem I n l e t i n B r i t i s h
Col umbia; breeding i s rare or
sporadic i n other locations.

Temperature plays a major r o l e i n
t h e d e v e l o,~ me n t o f t h e f e r t i l i z e d ~
oyster egg. A decrease o f 2'C
(from 24.5OC t o 22.5OC) doubled the
time required f o r the formation o f the
trochophore larvae ( G a l s t o f f 1964).
F e r t i 1 ized eggs reached the vel i g e r
stage i n 72 hours a t 14'C, and i n 28
hours at 22'C (Loosanoff and Davis
1963).
Growth of the free-swimminq l a r -
vae depends on many f a c t o r s ; the
length of the l a r v a l period i s dependent
on the water temperature. Temperatures
must be 20°C or greater f o r at
l e a s t three weeks f o r near optimal
growth (Magoon and Vining 1981).
Although larvae can survive s l i g h t l y
lower water temperatures, t h i s pro-
1 ongs t h e i r development and increases
t h e i r exposure t o pelagic predators
(Kennedy and Breisch 1981).

Growth i n oysters varies widely
w i t h t i d a l height, growing area, and
environmental conditions. Oyster
growth can be measured by increases i n
s h e l l size or body size. As a general
r u l e , growth i s f a s t e r as water temperature
increases (Loosanof f 1965).


The Pacific Northwest waters are
generally too cool for C. gigas as adult s
to spawn successfully - or their
larvae to settle in quantities apprecable for commercial use (Korringa
1976). Exceptions t o t h i s a r e Dabob
Bay and Quilcene Bay i n Washington,
where y e a r l y s p a t f a l l averages about
25 per s h e l l o f c u l t c h , w h i l e i n
P e n d r e l l Sound i n B r i t i s h Columbia,
commercial sets o f over 1,000 spat
per s h e l l are n o t uncommon (Korringa
1976; Chew, pers. comm.). Both areas
are r e l a t i v e l y protected; summer
water temperatures r e g u l a r l y exceed
20'C and where hydrographic f e a t u r e s
f a c i l i t a t e o y s t e r l a r v a l r e t e n t i o n
(Quayle 1969a; Korringa 1976).

These are FACTS..
This WIDELY FARMED species IS ALLOWED to be farmed because the risk of INVASIVE spread is low. It's LOW BECAUSE --- these crops are spawned in a controlled BUILDING and brought into waters where they live on the EDGE OF EXISTENCE -- til they are harvested. If Global Warming WERE in play --- and the waters were substantially WARMER since 1930 --- production would be booming.

The problem is moron oyster farmers locating in areas of bays that are couple degrees too cool for this species (look at a map of the farm areas sometime Mammy). And they are playing the OA card to gather sympathy and munch on your TAX DOLLARS.

This is not the source I remember reading. That one actually discussed the rationale for permitting C. Gigas as a cash crop.. But it'll do --- won't it?? I don't lie --- and I don't bluff about stuff I've learned.

Apologies? Donations??

 

[flacaltenn]

Wonderful story and another reference to the facts.

If you want to read about TRUE ENVIRO HEROES --- read the full article...

Local News | Pearl Of Northwest Oysters Has Returned From The Brink | Seattle Times Newspaper

In the years after World War II, the oyster industry in Oregon had become firmly established, and it continues to grow. In 1995, commercial growers in four Oregon estuaries produced 28,388 gallons of oysters worth nearly $1 million.

But those are nearly all non-native Pacific oysters - Crassotrea gigas - originally imported from Japan. Pacific Northwest waters are too cold for them to reproduce naturally. They have to be spawned in tanks to produce spat for seeding oyster beds.

Oysters play a vital part in an estuary's ecosystem, Johnson says, filtering the water and growing together to form reeflike structures that provide habitat for a variety of creatures. To allow the only natural oysters capable of filling that role to go extinct was inconceivable to him.

Johnson's job put him in a position to take action. In 1992, state Fish & Wildlife divers gathered 300 adult native oysters from Yaquina Bay and put them in Netarts Bay, north of Pacific City, to determine if they could survive. They did.

With the help of a Netarts oyster grower, that seed population was spawned under controlled conditions to produce millions of tiny oysters to plant in Netarts Bay.

"We put in 6 million and have since replanted the area a couple of different times," Johnson says. "They're flourishing and now re-established where they once were extinct."

A small population of native oysters is now planted in Alsea Bay, near Waldport, and Johnson has also spearheaded efforts to improve the habitat for the remaining population of native oysters in Yaquina Bay. An Army Corps of Engineers dredge has moved old shell, rocks and other hard debris up the bay near to the former Oysterville, where native oysters once thrived.

Robinson says it's hard to believe the progress in just a few years.

"I never believed this would be possible before John came, and I was struggling to do it all by myself," she says.

Two dedicated folks bringing back native oyster populations from the edge of extinction... Highly approve of this kind of dedication and effort..

 

[Abraham3]

Very nice. I commend their efforts. But the post has nothing to do with the topic, does it.

 

[Abraham3]

Do allow me to remind you of the case YOU'RE pushing:

.

For crying out loud --- proceed to test. Or better yet do in situ bio surveys. But don't ASSUME that the entire ocean volume is gonna spontaneously turn acidic and kill all life because of CO2.

This nickel & dime comeback is pure bullshit. The point made quite clear by that list of references is that hard research on the effects of acidification on marine life has been, is and will be done in spades. Your contention that no one knows enough to suggest a risk is unsupportable nonsense.

 

[flacaltenn]

Do allow me to remind you of the case YOU'RE pushing:

.

For crying out loud --- proceed to test. Or better yet do in situ bio surveys. But don't ASSUME that the entire ocean volume is gonna spontaneously turn acidic and kill all life because of CO2.

This nickel & dime comeback is pure bullshit. The point made quite clear by that list of references is that hard research on the effects of acidification on marine life has been, is and will be done in spades. Your contention that no one knows enough to suggest a risk is unsupportable nonsense.

The "replanting oysters story" WAS a tangent -- but it was NOT BULLSHIT.. In fact, I wasn't even trying to make a point about OA with it.. Just posted it because it CONTAINED the confirmation of the facts Mammy was crying about --- because you guys INFERRED I was lying about farming non-native species..

That list of references is crap.. Came from the study in this OP didn't it?
Why didn't you answer my question about Reference 16.. Do you not understand what you post?

My guess is the Univ of Hawaii GEOGRAPHY DEPT has limited access to the GROWN-UP science library and has to quote Encyclopedia Brittanica.. And pad their paper with leaping to discussion of CO2 remediation. If those ARE their references, now I know I won't have to retrieve this POS paper..

The Great NW Oyster Scare is virtually history.. Just like all the other "signs from the gods" that you folks THINK you are seeing TODAY.. You also never commented on my reasons why this SCARE as well as the others is HIGHLY OVERBLOWN for the purpose of alarming the public..

As Mark Twain once wrote.. "A lie can travel half-way 'round the world before the truth even gets it's pants on".

 

[flacaltenn]

Before we leave the Oysters dying from Ocean Acid part of this discussion.. As WestWall said, disease is ALSO an issue.. Especially in hatcheries...

Ocean acidification and emerging diseases in the Pacific Northwest | Roberts Lab

In the Pacific Northwest the environment has changed in a manner that has contributed to increase mortality of bivalve larvae in hatcheries and also appears to have decreased natural recruitment. Several factors have been attributed to this problem including temperature, ocean acidification, and re-emerging pathogens. We are testing the impact of single and multiple biotic and abiotic stressors (i.e. decreased pH) on larval bivalves with a focus the Pacific oyster. In addition, population level effects of ocean acidification will be determined using select SNP markers.

Several local shellfish hatcheries, upon which nearly the entire bivalve culture industry relies, have experienced severe losses (e.g. up to 59%) over the past two years. Several factors have been attributed to this problem including temperature, ocean acidification, and re-emerging pathogens. Given the large-scale environmental change observed in our marine ecosystems and the relationship of host stress response and pathogen virulence with environmental conditions, it is critical to examine the problems facing bivalve larvae from a regional perspective by systematically assessing how the environment influences the spread of disease and the ability of oysters to effectively respond to stress.


More specifically we will test the impact of single and multiple biotic and abiotic stressors on larval bivalves with a focus on the most economically important regional species, the Pacific oyster (Crassostrea gigas). In order to assess the impact of biotic and abiotic environmental factors on bivalve health, we will also assess the abundance of oysters and other larvae in Willapa, Dabob, and Netarts Bays in relation to water quality parameters (pH, temperature, dissolved oxygen, salinity, alkalinity, chlorophyll A, and pathogen load). The specific research objectives are to: 1) Characterize the interrelationship of altered environmental conditions, pathogen, and oyster response under controlled conditions and 2) Identify factors in Pacific Northwest hatcheries and in the wild that are associated with poor oyster larvae survival.

22 different possibilities, and the AGW Church just LEAPS to their favorite conclusions.

Only to be SEVERELY embarrassed when their own high priest fail to prove it in the lab..

 

[mamooth]

Hey you incredibly insolent moron. I dont lie.

You do, however, make some hilarious mistakes. Spreading false information unintentionally generally doesn't qualify as "lying", so you're okay so far.

look up C. Gigas on google and apologize.

http://ir.library.oregonstate.edu/xmlui/handle/1957/24985

This 1972 oyster growing guide from Oregon State University specifically says that Pacific Oysters, C. Gigas, have been farmed commercially in the Pacific Northwest since the mid-1920s.

Got anything to refute that? After all, it's a pretty ironclad source, an old non-political guide on oyster growing.

People who are as topically unprepared as you two ought to be paying us to educate you.

You have a choice now. Admit you made a really bad mistake, which led you down a chain of bad logic to bad conclusions. Or refuse to admit any error, and cross over into deliberate lying.

 

[mamooth]

22 different possibilities, and the AGW Church just LEAPS to their favorite conclusions.

So you're leaving out the part where low pH is directly observed to kill oyster larva in the real world, I see.

Again, 90 years of oyster growing with this species, yet 2005+ is the first time that 100% kills had been seen for many consecutive years. None of your theories can explain the observed data, hence sensible people discount your theories. Ocean acidification is the only theory that explains the observed data, hence sensible people accept that theory.

What the hell, are you blind as well as stupid? There have been papers on it going back at least to the 1970's.

Some scattered pathogen problems are not the same as total dieoffs everywhere for years running. Especially since bacteria and viruses were specifically tested for, and not found. And since the dieoffs stopped completely when only less acidic water is used. This matter is not considered controversial any more, except among political cultists doing their knee-jerk "My cult orders me to disagree with whatever the smart people say!" thing.

This is all reflective of the bigger issue, which is how AGW theory successfully predicts real-world results over and over. That's why it has such credibility. Denialists, unable to predict the real-world successfully themselves, seethe in jealousy. They'd literally prefer that oyster farmers go bankrupt than abandon this particular propaganda crusade.

 

[flacaltenn]

Don't have to do anything.. I've proved EVERY assertion I've made. Despite your personal insults and attacks. You're sittin naked holding a bag of oyster nothings and screaming like a child..

 

[flacaltenn]

22 different possibilities, and the AGW Church just LEAPS to their favorite conclusions.

So you're leaving out the part where low pH is directly observed to kill oyster larva in the real world, I see.

Again, 90 years of oyster growing with this species, yet 2005+ is the first time that 100% kills had been seen for many consecutive years. None of your theories can explain the observed data, hence sensible people discount your theories. Ocean acidification is the only theory that explains the observed data, hence sensible people accept that theory.

What the hell, are you blind as well as stupid? There have been papers on it going back at least to the 1970's.

Some scattered pathogen problems are not the same as total dieoffs everywhere for years running. Especially since bacteria and viruses were specifically tested for, and not found. And since the dieoffs stopped completely when only less acidic water is used. This matter is not considered controversial any more, except among political cultists doing their knee-jerk "My cult orders me to disagree with whatever the smart people say!" thing.

This is all reflective of the bigger issue, which is how AGW theory successfully predicts real-world results over and over. That's why it has such credibility. Denialists, unable to predict the real-world successfully themselves, seethe in jealousy. They'd literally prefer that oyster farmers go bankrupt than abandon this particular propaganda crusade.

What a moron. NOAA TRIED to kill baby oysters with 5 TIMES today's CO2 and failed.
Now you're just lying about shit..

 

[mamooth]

Flac, you might want to try debating me instead of just crying about how mean I am. I can't force you do, but when you squeal and run from all my points, it doesn't make you look good.

Let's get back to all of these points you're running from.

Why did you claim Pacific Oysters are new to the Pacific Northwest, when they've been commercially farmed there for 90 years?

Why do you claim one incomplete and inconclusive lab study on a different species overrides real world observations?

Why do you ignore the peer-reviewed studies that disagree with you?

Why do you ignore the fact that in the real world, lower pH seawater was specifically observed to kill oyster larva?

Why do you ignore the fact that mass dieoffs had never happened before 2005?

Why do you ignore the fact that all the usual causes of oyster larva deaths were checked for and not found?

What a moron. NOAA TRIED to kill baby oysters with 5 TIMES today's CO2 and failed.
Now you're just lying about shit..

You're just getting hysterical now. Take some deep breaths. Being proven wrong isn't the end of the world.

 

[flacaltenn]

Flac, you might want to try debating me instead of just crying about how mean I am. I can't force you do, but when you squeal and run from all my points, it doesn't make you look good.

Let's get back to all of these points you're running from.

Why did you claim Pacific Oysters are new to the Pacific Northwest, when they've been commercially farmed there for 90 years?

Never did.. Said they were NON-NATIVE species SPECIFICALLY Selected because they posed little threat as an INVASIVE species.. Can not successfully THRIVE on their own in those waters.
Why do you LIE about what I've said? You can't possibly be up to debate with that much of a reading problem...

Why do you claim one incomplete and inconclusive lab study on a different species overrides real world observations?

You're lying again.. The species in question is C. Gigas. This was the most COMPREHENSIVE LAB test done to date.. Really man -- if this is your level of absorption for science facts -- go play in the Hobbies forum. And they didn't show ANY mortality significance against even MASSIVE doses of CO2..

"real world observations" means ---- conclusions of the idiot oyster farmers who thought they could just plop a farm anywhere in the Bay??? Told you that high CO2 in that bay is correlated with COLDER WATERS. ALSO CORRELATED with differences in nutrients, mineral content and pathogens..

Why do you ignore the peer-reviewed studies that disagree with you?

Not aware of any other EXTENSIVE LAB studies on that species.. There are others, but they are earlier and cruder. Have you posted ANY real science evidence? No -- you haven't..

Why do you ignore the fact that in the real world, lower pH seawater was specifically observed to kill oyster larva?

At this point -- you just have to be a moron to not understand what I've told you.. That ONE observation by the oyster idiots did not control for TEMPERATURE.. (or anything else). It WAS NOT A SCIENTIFIC experiment.. And temp. is the factor that stresses this species during procreation and larval stages..

Why do you ignore the fact that mass dieoffs had never happened before 2005?

Facts not in evidence fish-breath.. The mortality was observed in HATCHING PONDS not in the environment for this one species. And there WERE MASS die-offs in history. In fact, the nature species were near EXTINCTION you moron.. THIS specie was raised successfully in a FEW SELECT LOCATIONS in the bay waters. As production and demand GREW -- the farmers had to use POORER CHOICES of locations in the Bay waters. Look at a chart of NATURAL population in ANY BAY of ANY Species of oyster.. This is spotty, because oysters are extremely sensitive to DOZENS of variables. [/quote]

Why do you ignore the fact that all the usual causes of oyster larva deaths were checked for and not found?

Bullshit.. Back it up.....

Why do you ignore the NOAA study I posted? Do you even UNDERSTAND IT? It controlled for and tested MANY variables.

Show me conflicting SCIENTIFIC results.. You're in denial and way behind on oyster farming news and science....

 

[flacaltenn]

I will be preparing an update of my "NOAA Fails to Kill Oysters" thread.

It will show the hype and propaganda around some of the OTHER lab "science" that claims that NorthWest oysters are dying because of anthro CO2 emissions..

In the meantime -- Consider that..

1) The anticipated pH change for mid-century is in the range 8.0 from 8.2 (preindustrial).. And the NATURAL variability of Wash Bay oyster waters is 7.6 to 8.2.

2) In nature, oysters spawn spontaneously en masse, a couple times a year when chemistry, temp, and nutrients are ONLY within a very narrow window of favorability.. At an oyster FARM, these yahoos are using HIGHLY VARIABLE bay waters to attempt to produce seed almost EVERY WEEK. Thus attempting to constantly raise the hatchlings in EXTREMELY variable conditions..

That's the diff between the NOAA study and other studies where zealots have purposely MISINTERPRETED the results is that they used natural bay waters rather than CONTROLLING for CO2 content in a scientific methodology that RESEMBLES the effects of an anthro caused mean shift.... And they characterized production yield for that spectrum of NATURAL PH changes which was IMMENSELY wider than anticipated OAcidification. A pH shift of 0.1 caused by man is NOT killing oysters. Inept farmers are killing oysters.

More on the other thread later..