Objections to Socialism

[Dante]

reminds me of the time spent with Thornbird.

ahhh, I miss that man and his time spent posting with a few bright people.

I'll need to know what definition of Socialism you're referring to before I can determine if I have any objections and what they might be.

 

[Old Rocks]

Our basic instinct in self-preservation and self betterment and we expect to be the sole masters of that which we have earned. We are charitable, but we, as individuals make the the decision as to who we give to, how much, and when, not a "committee". We, as a species value the worth of the individual far more than we do the collective. We are not bees in hive. We value the individual records in sports far more than the team records.

Liberalism always believes the false notion that humankind has evolved far more than we actually have. When in times of shortage we will be more than happy to see our fellow man starve and die in order to feed ourselves and our immediate families. We see that behavior in famine prone regions all the time.

There are other major problems with equal outcome based systems. They destroy initiative, incentive, and effort. If I get nothing more for achieving more, I will chose not to bother.

And who decides what the resource distribution is? The "intellectual elite"? "Councils of workers" are a joke because most workers lack the education, intelligence, or training to even remotely understand economic issues on a macro scale.

Socialism doesn't scale at all. It only marginally works in small, ethnically homogenous societies that are already wealthy to begin with as in Denmark, Sweden, Norway and break down in larger more diverse societies with wide ranging social differences and economic ranges (Soviet Union, and now Germany and France).

The REALITY of the human condition and the core of our nature is that at the end of the day, you are entitled to ONLY what you can TAKE and what you can KEEP. Nothing more, nothing less.

Social Darwinism. Totally disowned and held as contemptable by Darwin himself.

 

[Dante]

It's an economic system that runs counter to basic human nature.

So you're not embarrassed to use that trite bumper sticker slogan to highlight your light weight intellectual prowess?

good for you.

Moi

 

[Oddball]

Objections to Socialism

It relies upon proactive aggression to take from the productive, in order to feather the nests of the unproductive.

What other objection matters??

 

[Dante]

It relies upon proactive aggression to take from the productive, in order to feather the nests of the unproductive.

What other objection matters??

So you're not embarrassed to use that trite bumper sticker slogan to highlight your light weight intellectual prowess?

good for you.

Moi

 

[Zoomie1980]

You first sentence makes sense if it was 10,000BC. We have gone beyond that. Personally, I put team and individual efforts on an equal platform depending on the sport.

Where collectivism loses the way is when liberal zealots start being silly. Bit like conservative zealots who would, given liberty, take, take, take....

I like a mixture of capitalism and liberalism.

Wanna see capitalism unchecked? look at the US economy now. Great advertisement for the folly of pure capitalism and greed..

US economy is fine. We are in a NORMAL recession, not even close to the recession of 1982-83 and not even as bad yet as 91-92. You'd think we were in a depression from reading some posts on this forum. 93% of us are still working, 90% are still paying our mortgages and 85% of us are even making our credit card payments on time. It's working fine and if the government would just butt out, we'd shed this recession in a lot shorter time and get back to creating another asset bubble so i can make more money!

 

[Anguille]

It's an economic system that runs counter to basic human nature.

That could be a good reason in favor of it.

 

[Dante]

I hope this is NOT a case of:

"I have no desire to get any deeper into IT with manifold because, like with a Fellini movie, the deeper you get, the less sense he makes."

---
I see he's avoided a reply after baiting you.

I will be watching.

It depends on the variety of socialism, but in a libertarian setting, it would be through direct democratic governance in community assemblies and workers' councils.



On what basis do you make this claim? Could you elaborate?

 

[Zoomie1980]

Social Darwinism. Totally disowned and held as contemptable by Darwin himself.

That's why I lurk around, waiting for $150,000 homes to go into foreclosure so I can scoop them up for $75,000 and rent them for $800/mo, sometimes back to the original owners! and then wait for the market to turn and sell them all for $150,000...... Social Darwinism in action!

 

[Oddball]

So you're not embarrassed to use that trite bumper sticker slogan to highlight your light weight intellectual prowess?

good for you.

Moi

So, you're so short on actual analysis of a brief, yet cocise, objection that you feel you need to come at me personally??

Even though such a retort is pedantic, it does have the virtue of being witless.

 

[manifold]

It depends on the variety of socialism, but in a libertarian setting, it would be through direct democratic governance in community assemblies and workers' councils.

I can't envision how this would be executed in practice. For example, are you suggesting that the amount of food my family would recieve is decided by popular vote at a community assembly? And what about healthcare? Do I have to lobby for and await a favorable vote before I can get treatment for my daughter's case of kroop? I would certainly object to that.

 

[Anguille]

I can't envision how this would be executed in practice. For example, are you suggesting that the amount of food my family would recieve is decided by popular vote at a community assembly? And what about healthcare? Do I have to lobby for and await a favorable vote before I can get treatment for my daughter's case of kroop? I would certainly object to that.

croup

 

[Oddball]

It depends on the variety of socialism, but in a libertarian setting, it would be through direct democratic governance in community assemblies and workers' councils.

Which would still rely upon the proactive use of force to give any of its collectivistic proclamations any credibility.

FWIW, there's little to nothing inherently libertarian in the mob rule of democracy.

 

[Dante]

Possible Objection:

Would it resemble anything we know or have known? USSR or other Socialist Republic? As far as I know it's been tried in various forms and settings and has resulted in complete failure.

I think there is the model of employee ownership, but that is not socialism as much as it is a socialist approach when viewed from the prism of the ..ahem...free market.

My only true personal objection to socialism is that it has been a failure when tried, and I am happy with the system we have in the USA (although not perfect it is familiar and open to change). To try and create a perfect socialist experiment is not an experiment I want to be expose to either voluntary or forced.

A Socialist Democratic Republic might be to my liking, but I do not trust it would be implemented to my liking by the powers that be----and I do NOT trust my peers in a jury or a social experiment. So community assemblies and worker's councils are not my cuppa tea.

.

I'd like to conduct a little experiment here.

State a few.

I'll need to know what definition of Socialism you're referring to before I can determine if I have any objections and what they might be.

The collective ownership of the means of production.

Who gets to decide how the means are allocated and how the products are distributed?

It depends on the variety of socialism, but in a libertarian setting, it would be through direct democratic governance in community assemblies and workers' councils.

.......

 

[Dante]

I'm underwhelmed, but an A for effort is in order.


Give the Dude an A for effort.

So, you're so short on actual analysis of a brief, yet cocise, objection that you feel you need to come at me personally??

Even though such a retort is pedantic, it does have the virtue of being witless.

 

[Toro]

It depends on the variety of socialism, but in a libertarian setting, it would be through direct democratic governance in community assemblies and workers' councils.



On what basis do you make this claim? Could you elaborate?

Because it removes the flow of capital from the pricing system, and the pricing system is the most efficient allocator of capital to the industries which are most likely to grow the fastest and be in the highest demand.

Now, excuse me, I have a football game to watch.

 

[Oddball]

I'm underwhelmed, but an A for effort is in order.


Give the Dude an A for effort.

And an "F" for any actual cogent reply is yours.

Put up or button it.

 

[Dante]

I can't envision how this would be executed in practice. For example, are you suggesting that the amount of food my family would recieve[sic] is decided by popular vote at a community assembly? And what about healthcare[sic]? Do I have to lobby for and await a favorable vote before I can get treatment for my daughter's case of kroop[sic]? I would certainly object to that.

you have gotten into the minutiae in the hypothetical about a yet to be agreed upon system. Why not start out with the macro first? A broad agreement of what ag, imagines a socialist system to be or ...

Why are you objecting to something you yourself are proposing? I am puzzled here.

 

[Dante]

Can you can the politically correct jargon and speak in plain English? WTF are you writing a term paper in an Academic setting?


What is it with you and the quaint and arcane phrases/code words?

Which would still rely upon the proactive use of force to give any of its collectivistic proclamations any credibility.

FWIW, there's little to nothing inherently libertarian in the mob rule of democracy.

 

[manifold]

you have gotten into the minutiae in the hypothetical about a yet to be agreed upon system. Why not start out with the macro first? A broad agreement of what ag, imagines a socialist system to be or ...

Why are you objecting to something you yourself are proposing? I am puzzled here.

Because I'm a parent now silly! When that happens macro thinking is the first casualty. I thought everyone knew that.