Obama risks trade war with China

[Unkotare]

Let us be real, and throw in the fact that america was deindustrialized in the process. .

America hasn't been "deindustrialized," you hysterical fool.

On behalf of the fool...
It most certainly has when it comes to consumer good manufacturing. Or have you noticed that? Yet we have a consumption based economy! Who is the fool?

We have lost so much industry, that if we had to fight a large scale war such as ww2, we could not produce the goods needed to win the war. And it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that. I am surrounded by idiots. Who have lost common sense, and live in theory, in ideals,in La La Land.

Does it hurt to be so damn stupid?


Shopfloor | A Manufacturing Blog Reporting on Manufacturing Policy and Politics

 

[expat_panama]

...It's the cost of labor that has driven American manufacturing abroad...

The fact that lots of people say that doesn't make it true.

What US manufacturer's balance sheet say is that American paychecks are big because Americans are more productive than foreigners so they're worth more. US balance sheets also show that US factories are shipping almost a half trillion bucks worth of goods. Every month!

--and right now current production's within 7% of its '08 all time high.

 

[edthecynic]

A great many people all along the process.

To benefit from free trade you must first understand the Law of Comparative Advantage, and produce goods and trade goods accordingly.

I'm pretty familiar with Law of Comparative Advantage, but there is lot more to the problem than what's in the economic textbooks.

If Florida can produce the best and cheapest Oranges and Mexico can produce the best and cheapest tomatoes then the absence of trade barriers will allow the Florida orange growers and the Mexican Tomato growers to market their product world wide providing the best products to consumers. So with free trade, industries in each country can produce what they produce best. Consumers get better products, producers can make more money, and government collects more taxes. Everybody prospers. Well, not quite.

Each country must adjust which the US has not been able to do. The Florida tomatoes pickers must get jobs picking oranges of something else. Well, that's not a great deal of adjustment but the same can not be said for other industries. For example, when the TV manufacturing in 80's and 90's moved overseas, workers moved to other electronic manufacturing but slowly almost every electronic manufacturer in the country moved their operations abroad. So these workers were told they must retrain and find jobs in other similar industries but those industries were doing just what the electronics manufactures were doing. So the workers were told they should get college degrees, become healthcare professionals, engineers, and scientist. The problem of course is that retraining cost big bucks and many, particular older workers didn't have either the funds or the education to pursue such a course. This story is repeated over and over from textiles, to auto parts, to chemical manufacturing.

The bottom line is that free trade has been a disaster for millions of middle income workers, wonderful for consumers, and a bonanza for Wall Street and investors.

Whoever thought US workers would prosper in a free trade environment were nuts. America workers can not compete against labor in countries that pay a dollar an hour for labor with no benefits and little regulations. Americans were sold a bill of goods. We were told the ingenuity, education, and technology in foreign nations would never match the US. American jobs were safe That has certainly proved to be false.

The answer lies not in free trade but rather smarter trade treaties, huge investments in education, infrastructure, and technology. In many countries, government pumps large sums in the building of plants, research, and development giving their industries huge advantages over US industries. The US government has done little to prevent the illegal actives of China and other nations in dumping products on the US market to drive out completion and manipulations in currency market. In other words, we got to be smarter in dealing with these nations which is pretty hard when 40% of the largest US corporations are foreign owned.

But that problem is due to a government that makes the treaties but is too cheap to spend the money on the retraining or require the businesses that are outsourcing the jobs to contribute to a retraining fund because they pass that off as Socialism.

 

[Unkotare]

But that problem is due to a government that makes the treaties but is too cheap to spend the money on the retraining or require the businesses that are outsourcing the jobs to contribute to a retraining fund because they pass that off as Socialism.

The left never misses a chance to try and make things worse...

 

[editec]

...We had tariffs since this country started. It was only when those tariffs were replaced with "Free Trade Agreements" did the jobs start leaving and massive deficits begin...

It was actually the other way around, first the free trade/deficits and then the tariffs.

John Adams set up America's first foreign embassy in Holland where he worked out both our first free trade agreement and our first loans to finance the US government's first massive deficit spending for George Washington's army. Collecting duties on tariffs came after Washington got control of the ports.

From the onset USA set out to encourage this nation's industrial base by imposing TARIFFS on most imported manufactured goods.

Yes, we traded with other nations, too.

But we didn't have trade policies anything remotely like today's FREE TRADE environment.

In fact, quite the contrary, we have very strict trade controls and rather high tariffs, too.

That is in part how this nation got so wealthy ( In fact the US federal government pretty much lived on those tarriff revenues because there was no income tax in place) and now that we've reversed that system, that is in part, why this nation's economy is on the skids.

But hey, the masters of big capital keep getting richer becuase of free trade, so that's why we're going to continue to disasterous policy.

 

[iamwhatiseem]

...It's the cost of labor that has driven American manufacturing abroad...

The fact that lots of people say that doesn't make it true.

What US manufacturer's balance sheet say is that American paychecks are big because Americans are more productive than foreigners so they're worth more. US balance sheets also show that US factories are shipping almost a half trillion bucks worth of goods. Every month!

--and right now current production's within 7% of its '08 all time high.

Correct me if I am wrong...but I noticed this chart is based on "value of product" and not actual number of units. Inflation can and would skew this chart and make it look like production is up when it may actually be down.

 

[edthecynic]

But that problem is due to a government that makes the treaties but is too cheap to spend the money on the retraining or require the businesses that are outsourcing the jobs to contribute to a retraining fund because they pass that off as Socialism.

The left never misses a chance to try and make things worse...

Except it's the Right who block all efforts to have the government provide retraining for displaced workers. CON$ claim that that safety net is the problem with America.

February 02, 2012
RUSH: The whole safety net idea is a disaster. It's robbing people of opportunity. It's robbing people of dignity. It's creating dependents. It's creating perpetual Democrat voters reproducing. That's what it is. That's what it was designed for. LBJ, FDR, that was the purpose in all it is, to create an ever-growing and perpetually renewing pool of Democrat voters who never learn to depend on themselves, who never learn the skills to support themselves.

 

[expat_panama]

...Inflation can and would skew this chart and make it look like production is up when it may actually be down.

We've had deflation too, and deflation can and would skew this chart and make it look like production is down when it may actually be up. "Could" and "would" don't matter; anyone who cares more about reality than their beloved doom'n'gloom can click the fed's website to divide the shipments by the CPI. It's super easy (let me know if you find any the tools not labeled clearly at first glance)--

--and what we got is real factory shipments are up 20% since Clinton signed NAFTA.

 

[Unkotare]

In fact, quite the contrary, we have very strict trade controls and rather high tariffs, too.

That is in part how this nation got so wealthy.

This nation became wealthy by succeeding in international trade, not hiding from it like some of you frightened little cavemen would have us do.

 

[Unkotare]

But that problem is due to a government that makes the treaties but is too cheap to spend the money on the retraining or require the businesses that are outsourcing the jobs to contribute to a retraining fund because they pass that off as Socialism.

The left never misses a chance to try and make things worse...

Except it's the Right who block all efforts to have the government provide retraining for displaced workers.

Yes, because it is the government's responsibility to 'fix' people, never the individual's responsibility to adapt to changing circumstances and thereby thrive. And, of course, any problem can only be solved by Mommy Government spending more money. Your attitude and assumptions stink of the left.

 

[expat_panama]

...From the onset USA set out to encourage this nation's industrial base by imposing TARIFFS on most imported manufactured goods...

The US started out with individual states slapping protective tariffs on imports from other states, and the US Constitution ended those insane protective tariffs and made FREE TRADE the law of the land. They also wanted trade agreements internationally and fought to eliminate those tariffs (in the original constitution) just like they fought to eliminate slavery (also in the original constitution).

We're a lot better off now than we were two centuries ago.

More info here.

 

[edthecynic]

The left never misses a chance to try and make things worse...

Except it's the Right who block all efforts to have the government provide retraining for displaced workers.

Yes, because it is the government's responsibility to 'fix' people, never the individual's responsibility to adapt to changing circumstances and thereby thrive. And, of course, any problem can only be solved by Mommy Government spending more money. Your attitude and assumptions stink of the left.

CON$ say that the Mommy government imposing protective tariffs, which hurt American consumers to solve any problem for businesses that are not responsible enough to adapt to changing circumstances and thereby thrive, is good. But when government helps American workers the government is bad. Your attitude and assumptions stink of the Right.

 

[Unkotare]

Except it's the Right who block all efforts to have the government provide retraining for displaced workers.

Yes, because it is the government's responsibility to 'fix' people, never the individual's responsibility to adapt to changing circumstances and thereby thrive. And, of course, any problem can only be solved by Mommy Government spending more money. Your attitude and assumptions stink of the left.

CON$ say that the Mommy government imposing protective tariffs, which hurt American consumers to solve any problem for businesses that are not responsible enough to adapt to changing circumstances and thereby thrive, is good..

You've got your ideologies mixed up, kid. Try again.

 

[Flopper]

It's the cost of labor that has driven American manufacturing abroad. Conservatives seem to believe the answer is to drive down those costs, by destroying the unions, minimum wage, and regulations that protect workers and the community.

send 11 million illegals home, destroy the liberal unions to bring back another 30 million jobs and you'll have trememdous upward pressure on wages. Balance the Budget so the Japanese and Chinese have to buy our products and not our debt and you'll have trememdous upward pressure on wages.

End the liberal taxes that make it profitable to ships jobs offshore and you'll have tremendous upward pressure on wages!! These are points above the liberal IQ I'm afraid. Sorry!!

Pushing wages in the US higher will certainly not make the US labor market more attractive to employers. We need to revamp taxes on American manufacturing not just cutting tax rates but building incentives into the code that encourages companies to manufacture in the US. We need to eliminate or reduce the tax deductions that allow US corporations to write off the cost of moving jobs overseas, training workers in other countries to do the jobs done by American workers. We need to enhance the technology infrastructure in the US and see that no high school student in top tier of their class is turned away from college due to lack of funds. Now that Obamacare is the law we need to move on and pass legislation that will actually reduce the cost of healthcare.

Lastly we need to stop this insane idea that we must not offend the Chinese. We are the world's largest economy and the world's largest consumer. The Chinese need our markets just as much if not more than we need their products.

 

[expat_panama]

...Pushing wages in the US higher will certainly not make the US labor market more attractive to employers...

The hell you say.

Workers' demands for pay hikes don't push wages higher. Employer generosity can't push wages higher. Not even Federal law can push wages higher as minimum wage laws just make it illegal to hire less expensive labor. The only thing that can push up wages is improving skills and increasing productivity; that's where market pricing justifies wages that are 'pushed up'. Employers LOVE to hire expensive labor and it's highly skilled workers (especially in the more difficult tech sectors) that have the lowest unemployment rates.

...We need to revamp taxes on American manufacturing not just cutting tax rates but building incentives into the code that encourages companies to manufacture in the US...

More than this?

...Now that Obamacare is the law we need to move on and pass legislation that will actually reduce the cost of healthcare...

Finally we agree; Congress needs to repeal Obamacare.

 

[Flopper]

...Pushing wages in the US higher will certainly not make the US labor market more attractive to employers...

The hell you say.

Workers' demands for pay hikes don't push wages higher. Employer generosity can't push wages higher. Not even Federal law can push wages higher as minimum wage laws just make it illegal to hire less expensive labor. The only thing that can push up wages is improving skills and increasing productivity; that's where market pricing justifies wages that are 'pushed up'. Employers LOVE to hire expensive labor and it's highly skilled workers (especially in the more difficult tech sectors) that have the lowest unemployment rates.

...We need to revamp taxes on American manufacturing not just cutting tax rates but building incentives into the code that encourages companies to manufacture in the US...

More than this?

...Now that Obamacare is the law we need to move on and pass legislation that will actually reduce the cost of healthcare...

Finally we agree; Congress needs to repeal Obamacare.

I did not say that worker demands were pushing wages higher. I said, pushing wages in the US higher would certainly not make the US labor markets more attractive to employers. Higher US wages relative to wages abroad make foreign labor more attractive to manufacture.

There are many factors other than increased productivity that can push wages higher, shortage of the required skilled workers, inflation, and pressure from unions. I agree that increase productivity should be the only factor but unfortunately that is not the case.

No, we do not agree that Obamacare should be repealed. I think in time extending healthcare to 30 million plus Americans will prove to be the right decision. The cost benefits or Obmacare and there are a number will not be enough to offset the additional cost. Regulation of health insurance companies should be shifted to the federal level. Having 50 states regulate insurance companies increases cost and reduces competition. Generate and publicizing health outcomes quality data. Limit malpractice awards. Over half of our healthcare dollars are spent on Chronic diseases like heart disease, diabetes, lung disease, and Alzheimer's Disease. More research is needed in treating these diseases and federal guidelines are needed. End of life care is skyrocketing. Medicare spends over 75 billion a year on the last two months of care. Medicare should mandate end of live counseling and Hospice should be made a more financial attractive option.

 

[expat_panama]

We need fewer words and more thought. Let's focus on--

...Higher US wages relative to wages abroad make foreign labor more attractive to manufacture...

If that were true than lower paid US workers would be 'more attractive' and retained, while higher paid US workers would be laid off and replaced with foreigners. We know this is not what's happening so we have to accept the fact that high "US wages relative to wages abroad" is not why US companies hire foreigners.

The reason companies are hiring in foreign countries workers that are worth less than the US minimum wage is because if they did that in the US they'd go to jail.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Limit malpractice awards.

great way to focus on pure utter trivia

the most important way to control costs in any industry is to have customers spend their own money. This is why Republicans support vouchers, HSA's, and various methods to make the system more Republican and capitalist.

Liberals simply lack the ability to understand capitalism; accordingly we can identify the source of all our problems in health care. It is not coincidence that our health care is 2-3 times overpriced, it is 100% owing to the liberal's pathetic, non-intellectual, bleeding heart involvement in that particular industry.

Were they involved in every industry that way we'd be 2-3 times overpriced in every industry.
Can anyone deny this with a straight face? Can anyone deny that Communist China instantly saved 30 million human beings from liberal en masse starvation the instant they switched to Republican capitalism? A liberal can deny it, but only because a liberal feels no requirement to think whatsoever. It is a very sad fact.

 

[Flopper]

We need fewer words and more thought. Let's focus on--

...Higher US wages relative to wages abroad make foreign labor more attractive to manufacture...

If that were true than lower paid US workers would be 'more attractive' and retained, while higher paid US workers would be laid off and replaced with foreigners. We know this is not what's happening so we have to accept the fact that high "US wages relative to wages abroad" is not why US companies hire foreigners.

The reason companies are hiring in foreign countries workers that are worth less than the US minimum wage is because if they did that in the US they'd go to jail.

The average wage of a factory worker in China is $1.68/hr, $3.50 in Mexico, and $3.00 in South Korea. In the US, it's about $22/hr and you say the wage differential is not why jobs are going oversea. Surely you jest.

Although a Chinese factory worker may not have the education and skills of their American counterpart, the employer can well afford to provide training and investment in automation to simplify tasks. The government pays a minimum of 80% of the cost of social security, healthcare, unemployment insurance, and other benefits leaving less than 20% for the employer. So not only are the wages far lower than in the US but so are benefit costs. And you say, "US wages relative to wages abroad is not why US companies hire foreigners."

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

the wage differential is not why jobs are going oversea. Surely you jest.

there have always been wage differences between New York and Alabama, and the USA and most countries, but this does not mean the jobs go to where wages are lowest. In fact, even after 200 years of it and the the recent liberal housing crisis we have 120 million jobs. And, we could easily have 25 million more and at higher wages if not for liberals:

1) Make unions illegal ( 10 million new jobs) Democrats oppose

2) make minimum wage illegal ( 5 million new jobs) Democrats oppose

3) end business taxation; especially tax incentives to off-shore jobs ( 5 million new jobs) Democrats oppose

4) make inflation illegal ( 2 million new jobs) Democrats oppose


5) make Federal debt illegal( 2 million new jobs) Democrats oppose

6) send illegal workers home(8 million new jobs) Democrats oppose

7) Pass Balanced Budget Amendment to Constitution( 3 million new jobs) Democrats oppose

8) cut pay of government workers in half( 4 million new jobs) Democrats oppose

9) Make health insurance competition legal( 6 million new jobs) Democrats oppose

10) end needless business regulations ( 2 million new jobs) Democrats oppose

11) restrict Federal spending to 15% of GNP( 2 million new jobs) Democrats oppose

12) support unlimited free trade( 2 million new jobs) Democrats oppose

13) reduced unemployment compensation, welfare, food stamps, medicaid.( 2 million new jobs) Democrats oppose

14) privatize education, social security ( 4 million new jobs) Democrats oppose

15) end payroll taxes ( 1 million new jobs) Democrats oppose

Since Democrats always oppose wisdom and common sense the only serious option is to make them illegal as the Constitution intended.