Obama DID NOT save GM, the bankruptcy judge did.

[StevenC]

If it was the government bailout and not the bankruptcy that saved GM, then the credit should go to Bush as he was the one that started the bailout. Shouldn't it?
I personally believe that the government made things worse and that GM wouldv'e recoverd sooner if they had stayed out of it.

 

[StevenC]

their hate of Obama is becoming pathalogical

"Becoming"???? I thought they were already there when they consistely called him a terrorist, a ****** and questioned his citizenship even though they had NEVER done so with any white candidate in the past....

Kind of hard to call a white man a ******.
I personally don't recall Obama being refered to as such by those on the right. I only see it when the left is trying to attack the right and making claims that can not be substaintiated.
I do remember McCain being questioned about his citizenship though.
I also remember the vitriol hurled at Bush for 6 years.

 

[Syphon]

If it was the government bailout and not the bankruptcy that saved GM, then the credit should go to Bush as he was the one that started the bailout. Shouldn't it?
I personally believe that the government made things worse and that GM wouldv'e recoverd sooner if they had stayed out of it.

can you defend that position? in what way would GM have recovered sooner had they simply filed for bankruptcy rather than receive government assistance?

as it currently stands, most economics believe that the bailout money saved between 1 and 1.4 million jobs.

 

[Newby]

I sort of see your point.

We paid more than the cap value for the stocks.

The time to have purchased the company was after it went belly up, and the lenders to GM and the bond holders lost everything.

We'd (meaning the US taxpayers) would have gotten the company for a song.

But why did the unions get to benefit from that at the taxpayer expense? You say they saved the bond holders from complete loss, so they should be happy. But, that doesn't explain how the union comes out ahead at the end of the deal at the bond holders expense, does it? They took the risks, not the union.

It would help if you two knew what you were talking about.

The givebacks brought costs more in line with Asian automakers that have U.S. plants. GM now pays roughly $58 per hour -- $29 in wages and the rest in benefits and other costs, according to the Center for Automotive Research. For Toyota, that figure is $56. Before the concessions, GM's costs were about $70 per hour.

Although GM, Chrysler and Ford won't go back to the old wages and benefits, negotiations are under way for other rewards, such as profit-sharing. Companies prefer bonuses to raises because they come only if a company makes money or meets goals.

Gov't bailout turns tables for auto union

From your article..

But things got more complex when the government bailed out General Motors and Chrysler two years ago in a deal that left the union with big chunks of stock in both companies.

By what right did the government take the stock from the investors who had paid for it and give it to the union? And how is it not a conflict of interest for the union?

 

[theunbubba]

At the end of March 2009, U.S. President Barack Obama declined to provide financial aid to General Motors, and requested that General Motors produce credible plans, saying that the company's proposals had avoided tough decisions, and that Chapter 11 bankruptcy appeared the most promising way to reduce its debts, by allowing the courts to compel bondholders and trade unions into settlements. Chapter 11 filing was necessitated largely by inability of former GM entity to support its pension liabilities and also to form commercial alliances with other automakers that could have aided cost reductions in existing business model. On June 8, 2009, General Motors filed for reorganization under the provisions of Chapter 11, Title 11, United States Code, and as a direct result investments of all former common stockholders were lost completely, (Reorganized GMGMQ Corporate statement of June 10, 2009; "GM management strongly believes that any recovery for the common stockholders in the chapter 11 bankruptcy process is highly unlikely, even under the most optimistic of scenarios. Stockholders of a company in chapter 11 generally receive value only if all claims of the secured and unsecured creditors are fully satisfied." Prior to chapter 11, the former GM stock hit a high of $93.63 on April 28, 2000.). On July 10, 2009, with financing partially provided by the US Government, General Motors emerged from reorganization. GM was re-listed on the NYSE on November 18, 2010, setting the record for the largest IPO in US history with a value of $20.1 billion.[66] Before the IPO, the U.S. government owned a 27% stake in GM, and the Canadian government still owns a 12% stake in the company. The Ontario government has owned a 3.8% stake in the company since 2009.

GM had filed for Chapter 11 reorganization on June 8, 2009. Only the US Subsidiary was forced into bankruptcy. Shareholders were left without access to assets from GM owned assets in Asia or Europe. On July 10, 2009, General Motors emerged from Chapter 11 reorganization.[67][68][69] The Company was listed on the New York Stock Exchange and the Toronto Stock Exchange again on November 18, 2010 following a US$33-a-share initial public offering of US$23 billion, including preferred shares. The shareholding in the Company by the U.S. Treasury department is reduced from about 61% to about 33%, including preferred shares and accounting for stock options given to former GM bondholders.[70][71] Disposal of such shares gave the Treasury department about US$13.6 billion in proceeds. It was previously estimated that the Treasury would have to sell GM shares at an average of $43.67 a share to break even. SAIC Motor, partner of GM in China and India, acquired just less than 1 percent of the GM shares for about $500 million.[72][73]

General Motors - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Based on the facts, had Obama NOT provided GM with tax payer capital, they never could have re-emerged from the bankruptcy he forced them into. So, while I have always disagreed with the bail outs of Wall Street, GM and Chrysler, it would appear that Grandma is twisting the facts to once again attempt to bash Obama. Pretty typical for her....

How is it that you can say that Obama forced GM into bankruptcy, only to bail them out with our money, and not be angry at Obama?
Where do you people get this disconnect from?

 

[kiwiman127]

At the end of March 2009, U.S. President Barack Obama declined to provide financial aid to General Motors, and requested that General Motors produce credible plans, saying that the company's proposals had avoided tough decisions, and that Chapter 11 bankruptcy appeared the most promising way to reduce its debts, by allowing the courts to compel bondholders and trade unions into settlements. Chapter 11 filing was necessitated largely by inability of former GM entity to support its pension liabilities and also to form commercial alliances with other automakers that could have aided cost reductions in existing business model. On June 8, 2009, General Motors filed for reorganization under the provisions of Chapter 11, Title 11, United States Code, and as a direct result investments of all former common stockholders were lost completely, (Reorganized GMGMQ Corporate statement of June 10, 2009; "GM management strongly believes that any recovery for the common stockholders in the chapter 11 bankruptcy process is highly unlikely, even under the most optimistic of scenarios. Stockholders of a company in chapter 11 generally receive value only if all claims of the secured and unsecured creditors are fully satisfied." Prior to chapter 11, the former GM stock hit a high of $93.63 on April 28, 2000.). On July 10, 2009, with financing partially provided by the US Government, General Motors emerged from reorganization. GM was re-listed on the NYSE on November 18, 2010, setting the record for the largest IPO in US history with a value of $20.1 billion.[66] Before the IPO, the U.S. government owned a 27% stake in GM, and the Canadian government still owns a 12% stake in the company. The Ontario government has owned a 3.8% stake in the company since 2009.

GM had filed for Chapter 11 reorganization on June 8, 2009. Only the US Subsidiary was forced into bankruptcy. Shareholders were left without access to assets from GM owned assets in Asia or Europe. On July 10, 2009, General Motors emerged from Chapter 11 reorganization.[67][68][69] The Company was listed on the New York Stock Exchange and the Toronto Stock Exchange again on November 18, 2010 following a US$33-a-share initial public offering of US$23 billion, including preferred shares. The shareholding in the Company by the U.S. Treasury department is reduced from about 61% to about 33%, including preferred shares and accounting for stock options given to former GM bondholders.[70][71] Disposal of such shares gave the Treasury department about US$13.6 billion in proceeds. It was previously estimated that the Treasury would have to sell GM shares at an average of $43.67 a share to break even. SAIC Motor, partner of GM in China and India, acquired just less than 1 percent of the GM shares for about $500 million.[72][73]

General Motors - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Based on the facts, had Obama NOT provided GM with tax payer capital, they never could have re-emerged from the bankruptcy he forced them into. So, while I have always disagreed with the bail outs of Wall Street, GM and Chrysler, it would appear that Grandma is twisting the facts to once again attempt to bash Obama. Pretty typical for her....

Except you're leaving out what our money was used for. I'll give you one guess......it starts with a U.

And wicki is NOT a reputable source as ANYONE can post "facts" (loosely used) on there.

Not quite.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SANTORUM: ''All the federal government did was basically tip to the cronies, tip to the unions, gave the unions the company.'' -- June 13 New Hampshire debate.

ROMNEY: ``The idea of billions of dollars being wasted initially -- then finally they adopted the managed bankruptcy. I was among others that said we ought to do that. And then after that, they gave the company to the UAW. They gave General Motors to the UAW and they gave Chrysler to Fiat.'' -- Nov. 10 Michigan debate.

THE FACTS: These are distorted accounts of complex arrangements by which the companies, unions, government and courts fashioned a plan to lighten staggering health care and pension costs at the heart of the automakers' decline.

A trust owned by the United Auto Workers -- but not directly managed by the union -- received a 17.5 percent ownership stake in GM in return for taking over the health care costs of blue-collar retirees. That stake declined as the company left government ownership by selling stock to the public; it's now about 10 percent. In return for its share, the UAW could not strike over wages at Chrysler or GM in the last round of contract talks, and it gave other concessions too.
Read more: FACT CHECK: Presidential candidates in Michigan squirm trying to explain auto bailout stances  - NY Daily News
---------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[VaYank5150]

their hate of Obama is becoming pathalogical

"Becoming"???? I thought they were already there when they consistely called him a terrorist, a ****** and questioned his citizenship even though they had NEVER done so with any white candidate in the past....

Kind of hard to call a white man a ******.
I personally don't recall Obama being refered to as such by those on the right. I only see it when the left is trying to attack the right and making claims that can not be substaintiated.
I do remember McCain being questioned about his citizenship though.
I also remember the vitriol hurled at Bush for 6 years.

I see you joined this board around the same time I did. If you were active, then you simply refused to see all of the right wing nuts on here call Obama a ****** and a terrorist day in and day out.

 

[StevenC]

If it was the government bailout and not the bankruptcy that saved GM, then the credit should go to Bush as he was the one that started the bailout. Shouldn't it?
I personally believe that the government made things worse and that GM wouldv'e recoverd sooner if they had stayed out of it.

can you defend that position? in what way would GM have recovered sooner had they simply filed for bankruptcy rather than receive government assistance?

as it currently stands, most economics believe that the bailout money saved between 1 and 1.4 million jobs.

I can not defend my opinion. Only state that it is an opinion. But you nor anyone else can prove they wouldn't have recovered faster. Nor can you prove they wouldv'e folded. In fact because of how necessary cars are I am confident the GM wouldv't survived on its own.

Who would build cars if GM had folded? Those jobs wouldv'e just moved to whoever took over for GM. Or do you think these cars wouldn't be built?

 

[Truthmatters]

its one of hte many reasons blacks dont vote republican at a 90% rate.

 

[StevenC]

"Becoming"???? I thought they were already there when they consistely called him a terrorist, a ****** and questioned his citizenship even though they had NEVER done so with any white candidate in the past....

Kind of hard to call a white man a ******.
I personally don't recall Obama being refered to as such by those on the right. I only see it when the left is trying to attack the right and making claims that can not be substaintiated.
I do remember McCain being questioned about his citizenship though.
I also remember the vitriol hurled at Bush for 6 years.

I see you joined this board around the same time I did. If you were active, then you simply refused to see all of the right wing nuts on here call Obama a ****** and a terrorist day in and day out.

I don't consider nutjobs as being either on the right or left. They are stains on this country and should be ignored.
Did you defend Bush against the attack made against him by the same scum?

 

[theunbubba]

If it was the government bailout and not the bankruptcy that saved GM, then the credit should go to Bush as he was the one that started the bailout. Shouldn't it?
I personally believe that the government made things worse and that GM wouldv'e recoverd sooner if they had stayed out of it.

can you defend that position? in what way would GM have recovered sooner had they simply filed for bankruptcy rather than receive government assistance?

as it currently stands, most economics believe that the bailout money saved between 1 and 1.4 million jobs.

Most economists my ass. Real economists know that GM would have re-emerged from bankruptcy with LESS debt than they have now and no union contracts weighing them down. Employees would have been rehired under new contracts and money losing plants would have been shut down. Deallerships would not have been selectively shut down by political fiat. This would have positioned GM to be much more competitive than they are today. I can't believe I have to explain this again.
This would lead to GM opening new plants here in the US within 3 years. Modern and clean new plants. Not old power wasting burdensome old plants. Thus creating new jobs. Better jobs. More plentiful jobs.

 

[kiwiman127]

At the end of March 2009, U.S. President Barack Obama declined to provide financial aid to General Motors, and requested that General Motors produce credible plans, saying that the company's proposals had avoided tough decisions, and that Chapter 11 bankruptcy appeared the most promising way to reduce its debts, by allowing the courts to compel bondholders and trade unions into settlements. Chapter 11 filing was necessitated largely by inability of former GM entity to support its pension liabilities and also to form commercial alliances with other automakers that could have aided cost reductions in existing business model. On June 8, 2009, General Motors filed for reorganization under the provisions of Chapter 11, Title 11, United States Code, and as a direct result investments of all former common stockholders were lost completely, (Reorganized GMGMQ Corporate statement of June 10, 2009; "GM management strongly believes that any recovery for the common stockholders in the chapter 11 bankruptcy process is highly unlikely, even under the most optimistic of scenarios. Stockholders of a company in chapter 11 generally receive value only if all claims of the secured and unsecured creditors are fully satisfied." Prior to chapter 11, the former GM stock hit a high of $93.63 on April 28, 2000.). On July 10, 2009, with financing partially provided by the US Government, General Motors emerged from reorganization. GM was re-listed on the NYSE on November 18, 2010, setting the record for the largest IPO in US history with a value of $20.1 billion.[66] Before the IPO, the U.S. government owned a 27% stake in GM, and the Canadian government still owns a 12% stake in the company. The Ontario government has owned a 3.8% stake in the company since 2009.

GM had filed for Chapter 11 reorganization on June 8, 2009. Only the US Subsidiary was forced into bankruptcy. Shareholders were left without access to assets from GM owned assets in Asia or Europe. On July 10, 2009, General Motors emerged from Chapter 11 reorganization.[67][68][69] The Company was listed on the New York Stock Exchange and the Toronto Stock Exchange again on November 18, 2010 following a US$33-a-share initial public offering of US$23 billion, including preferred shares. The shareholding in the Company by the U.S. Treasury department is reduced from about 61% to about 33%, including preferred shares and accounting for stock options given to former GM bondholders.[70][71] Disposal of such shares gave the Treasury department about US$13.6 billion in proceeds. It was previously estimated that the Treasury would have to sell GM shares at an average of $43.67 a share to break even. SAIC Motor, partner of GM in China and India, acquired just less than 1 percent of the GM shares for about $500 million.[72][73]

General Motors - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Based on the facts, had Obama NOT provided GM with tax payer capital, they never could have re-emerged from the bankruptcy he forced them into. So, while I have always disagreed with the bail outs of Wall Street, GM and Chrysler, it would appear that Grandma is twisting the facts to once again attempt to bash Obama. Pretty typical for her....

How is it that you can say that Obama forced GM into bankruptcy, only to bail them out with our money, and not be angry at Obama?
Where do you people get this disconnect from?

Though not a big fan of Obama, I think a million people who kept their jobs will disagree with you. Also, consider the fragile National Psyche would have been seeing GM and Chrysler disappear. Seeing them survive improves certainly better for the National Psyche than seeing our auto industry fail, that provides positive effects for the economy. When the consumer is feeling good they spend, when they don't fell good they don't spend. Seventy percent of our economy is driven by consumer spending.
In other words the bailouts of GM and Chrysler is actually a bigger picture than what is being painted.

 

[DaGoose]

But why did the unions get to benefit from that at the taxpayer expense? You say they saved the bond holders from complete loss, so they should be happy. But, that doesn't explain how the union comes out ahead at the end of the deal at the bond holders expense, does it? They took the risks, not the union.

It would help if you two knew what you were talking about.









Gov't bailout turns tables for auto union

From your article..

But things got more complex when the government bailed out General Motors and Chrysler two years ago in a deal that left the union with big chunks of stock in both companies.

By what right did the government take the stock from the investors who had paid for it and give it to the union? And how is it not a conflict of interest for the union?

Never said it was right or wrong. Only that the union did not make out like bandits and actually took concessions.

 

[Remodeling Maidiac]

their hate of Obama is becoming pathalogical

"Becoming"???? I thought they were already there when they consistely called him a terrorist, a ****** and questioned his citizenship even though they had NEVER done so with any white candidate in the past....

I NEVER said any of those things.

 

[Remodeling Maidiac]

For the record I will never buy another GM auto. And I know many like minded individuals. Spin it however you like but I will only support companies that conduct business properly. Ford had the same hurdles and managed to do just fine.

 

[DaGoose]

For the record I will never buy another GM auto. And I know many like minded individuals. Spin it however you like but I will only support companies that conduct business properly. Ford had the same hurdles and managed to do just fine.

Fortunately you're way outnumbered.

 

[uscitizen]

And the rich do not create jobs the consumers buying stuff does.

 

[Full-Auto]

And the rich do not create jobs the consumers buying stuff does.

A reasonable point.

So when does the bag lady open that mom and pop whatever?

 

[8537]

Anyone who believes otherwise is easily fooled in my opinion.

Had the bailout that both Bush and Obama were for worked, the company wouldn't have gone bankrupt anyway. All Obama ultimately did was steal wealth from the bond holders and line the pockets of the unions with it. The company itself remained in the red until the bankruptcy judge allowed certain debts to be dumped and restructured the remaining debts.

Bankruptcy saved GM. Obama saved union votes and wasted our tax dollars.

Where was the private equity going to come from?

 

[Remodeling Maidiac]

Anyone who believes otherwise is easily fooled in my opinion.

Had the bailout that both Bush and Obama were for worked, the company wouldn't have gone bankrupt anyway. All Obama ultimately did was steal wealth from the bond holders and line the pockets of the unions with it. The company itself remained in the red until the bankruptcy judge allowed certain debts to be dumped and restructured the remaining debts.

Bankruptcy saved GM. Obama saved union votes and wasted our tax dollars.

Where was the private equity going to come from?

Reallocation of debt through bankruptcy. Any funds needed beyond that should have come from outside sources, not my tax revenue. I don't pay taxes so our govt can choose who wins and who loses. Success or failure is supposed to be based on the merits of your own choices not the govts.

And those that say only Obama saved the jobs, NONSENSE. Obama picked and chose who got to keep q job and who didn't. Ie: dealers, their sales staff, their secretaries, their mechanics, and on down the line all lost jobs but the union didn't. That is not how the free market is supposed to work.

The company simply would have reorganized under chapter 11. Some would win, some would lose. That's how real, fair business is conducted.