Obama brushes top Senior Intell. Officials pleas to the side

[jreeves]

In recent days, senior U.S. intelligence officials, including CIA Director Michael Hayden and outgoing Director of National Intelligence Mike McConnell, told Obama's advisers and journalists that they still needed the flexibility to use some interrogation methods not permitted by the military. If nothing else, intel officials argued, inducing fear among detainees that they might be subjected to harsh practices was useful in persuading them to talk.

"They were permitted to state their case," said one senior Obama adviser, who asked not be identified talking about internal deliberations.

But in the end, Obama's review team, headed by new White House Counsel Gregory Craig, rejected their arguments and questioned the premise that such methods were necessary. Obama is satisfied that the use of the military field manual "will not compromise national security," said another senior administration official, who also asked not to be identified talking about the administration's review process.

Obama's Order Ends Bush-Era Interrogation Tactics | Newsweek Voices - Terror Watch | Newsweek.com

I think this is a huge mistake. The intelligence community's ability to obtain terror threats will be hampered.

 

[Modbert]

In recent days, senior U.S. intelligence officials, including CIA Director Michael Hayden and outgoing Director of National Intelligence Mike McConnell, told Obama's advisers and journalists that they still needed the flexibility to use some interrogation methods not permitted by the military. If nothing else, intel officials argued, inducing fear among detainees that they might be subjected to harsh practices was useful in persuading them to talk.

"They were permitted to state their case," said one senior Obama adviser, who asked not be identified talking about internal deliberations.

But in the end, Obama's review team, headed by new White House Counsel Gregory Craig, rejected their arguments and questioned the premise that such methods were necessary. Obama is satisfied that the use of the military field manual "will not compromise national security," said another senior administration official, who also asked not to be identified talking about the administration's review process.

Obama's Order Ends Bush-Era Interrogation Tactics | Newsweek Voices - Terror Watch | Newsweek.com

I think this is a huge mistake. The intelligence community's ability to obtain terror threats will be hampered.

From the 1960's on, trust in the CIA has gotten worse at certain times. This is one of them. If I remember correctly, Kennedy was about this [] close to shutting down the CIA program completely after Bay of Pigs. But then of course, he got shot.

But hey, guess I got to be in the CIA before I go encouraging and involving myself in the drug trade.

 

[jreeves]

From the 1960's on, trust in the CIA has gotten worse at certain times. This is one of them. If I remember correctly, Kennedy was about this [] close to shutting down the CIA program completely after Bay of Pigs. But then of course, he got shot.

But hey, guess I got to be in the CIA before I go encouraging and involving myself in the drug trade.

With the help of the CIA, German investigators foiled what would likely have been the most devastating terror attack of its kind in the country's history. The plans of a fanatical group of Islamists trained in Pakistan reveal just how great a risk Europe faces.

Operation Alberich: How the CIA Helped Germany Foil Terror Plot - International - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News


AL-QAEDA leader Osama bin Laden is alive but "largely isolated", says CIA Director Michael Hayden.

He also said US intelligence had disrupted a terrorist attack that "would have rivalled the destruction of 9/11", but did not give details.

CIA chief claims new 9/11 attack foiled | theage.com.au
Damn CIA...

 

[RetiredGySgt]

With the help of the CIA, German investigators foiled what would likely have been the most devastating terror attack of its kind in the country's history. The plans of a fanatical group of Islamists trained in Pakistan reveal just how great a risk Europe faces.

Operation Alberich: How the CIA Helped Germany Foil Terror Plot - International - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News


AL-QAEDA leader Osama bin Laden is alive but "largely isolated", says CIA Director Michael Hayden.

He also said US intelligence had disrupted a terrorist attack that "would have rivalled the destruction of 9/11", but did not give details.

CIA chief claims new 9/11 attack foiled | theage.com.au
Damn CIA...

Don't bother, he is 18 now and has such a vast life experience he just knows everything.

 

[Xenophon]

Bush didn't listen either, remember what happened?

 

[RodISHI]

Europe will have to do it's own dirty work concerning terrorist. The Obama administration is opting out.

 

[jreeves]

Bush didn't listen either, remember what happened?

Bush learned lessons from 9/11, Obama evidently isn't capable of learning from past mistakes.

 

[Modbert]

Just wondering Jreeves, do the couple successes of the CIA make up for all the mistakes they've made in their history?

 

[jreeves]

Just wondering Jreeves, do the couple successes of the CIA make up for all the mistakes they've made in their history?

Would you like a complete list of CIA successes? There are more than just a couple and some you and I no nothing about due to national security.

 

[Modbert]

Just wondering Jreeves, do the couple successes of the CIA make up for all the mistakes they've made in their history?

Would you like a complete list of CIA successes? There are more than just a couple and some you and I no nothing about due to national security.

Sure but you have to admit the CIA has made plenty of mistakes too.

If we are to believe Bush:

Bush disappointed that CIA gave him incorrect info on Iraq-US-World-The Times of India

I find this interview very interesting, I'm not sure if you ever read it J. I'm not really sure what to think of it on first read.

CIA officer claims U.S. fighting wrong war - Nightly News with Brian Williams- msnbc.com

I never saw the internet before, but I suppose he's not so secret anymore.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_Hubris

 

[Annie]

In recent days, senior U.S. intelligence officials, including CIA Director Michael Hayden and outgoing Director of National Intelligence Mike McConnell, told Obama's advisers and journalists that they still needed the flexibility to use some interrogation methods not permitted by the military. If nothing else, intel officials argued, inducing fear among detainees that they might be subjected to harsh practices was useful in persuading them to talk.

"They were permitted to state their case," said one senior Obama adviser, who asked not be identified talking about internal deliberations.

But in the end, Obama's review team, headed by new White House Counsel Gregory Craig, rejected their arguments and questioned the premise that such methods were necessary. Obama is satisfied that the use of the military field manual "will not compromise national security," said another senior administration official, who also asked not to be identified talking about the administration's review process.

Obama's Order Ends Bush-Era Interrogation Tactics | Newsweek Voices - Terror Watch | Newsweek.com

I think this is a huge mistake. The intelligence community's ability to obtain terror threats will be hampered.

From the 1960's on, trust in the CIA has gotten worse at certain times. This is one of them. If I remember correctly, Kennedy was about this [] close to shutting down the CIA program completely after Bay of Pigs. But then of course, he got shot.

But hey, guess I got to be in the CIA before I go encouraging and involving myself in the drug trade.

You remember what from 1963? Bay of Pigs was 1961. Were your parents even born?

 

[Modbert]

You remember what from 1963? Bay of Pigs was 1961. Were your parents even born?

My parents were born at the time. And if I remember correctly, at the time that is what went on. I didn't know people couldn't remember stuff that they read?

 

[jreeves]

You remember what from 1963? Bay of Pigs was 1961. Were your parents even born?

My parents were born at the time. And if I remember correctly, at the time that is what went on. I didn't know people couldn't remember stuff that they read?

If I remember correctly, humans make mistakes. Since the CIA is run by humans it only stands to reason the agency have and will make mistakes. With that being said the CIA has done a great job since 9/11 at thrawting would be terror attacks. Due in large part to the tools that the previous adminstration afforded them.

 

[rayboyusmc]

The bottom line, however, is that interrogation experts have said they don't get good information from torture. So why do we use it?

One them who was a team leader at Gitmo got what he needed by using conventional techniques and didn't have to break the law by using torture.

If we condone it now, then I guess we have to go back to WWII and apologize for those we executed for torturing our troops.

There are also similar security experts on Obama's team who disagree with Hayden et al.

 

[jreeves]

The bottom line, however, is that interrogation experts have said they don't get good information from torture. So why do we use it?

One them who was a team leader at Gitmo got what he needed by using conventional techniques and didn't have to break the law by using torture.

If we condone it now, then I guess we have to go back to WWII and apologize for those we executed for torturing our troops.

There are also similar security experts on Obama's team who disagree with Hayden et al.

The experts in intelligence have said that the tools afforded to them before the executive order were useful. With a stroke of a pen Obama took away these tools and effectively ended our war on terror. The question is will the terrorist end their campaign of terror against the US? Obama effectively set our intelligence community back by 8 years.

 

[rayboyusmc]

The experts in intelligence have said that the tools afforded to them before the executive order were useful.

Which experts?

You will probably find experts on both sides of this argument. Obama has better intel on this than you or I, so I will go along with him until proven wrong.

We lived this long with formally making torture part of our culture why do we need to start now. Please don't come back with "everything changed after 9-11." It didn't.

 

[rayboyusmc]

Here are some who disagree:

A recent poll showed that 44% of Americans support torture on "terrorist suspects".

Why so many?

A key architect of America's torture program, Doug Feith, testified under oath to Congress today that torture is necessary because - otherwise - we couldn't get any information out of the "bad guys". Several Congress people agreed.

Why do any Congress people support this argument?

Because many people mistakenly assume that torture works, and is thus a necessary evil.

Let's put aside questions of morality, humanity, and legality . . . Let's just focus on one question: does torture work?

In fact, the professional FBI, CIA and army interrogators all say no.

They say that people will say anything to stop the pain . . . specifically, they'll say what they think the torturer wants to hear. Moreover, they say that the way to actually get useful information about of prisoners -- including information helpful to stopping future terrorist attacks -- is to build trust and rapport with them, or to outsmart them in ongoing conversations.

See for yourself:

Army Field Manual 34-52 Chapter 1 says:
"Experience indicates that the use of force is not necessary to gain the cooperation of sources for interrogation. Therefore, the use of force is a poor technique, as it yields unreliable results, may damage subsequent collection efforts, and can induce the source to say whatever he thinks the interrogator wants to hear."
A declassified FBI e-mail dated May 10, 2004, regarding interrogation at Guantanamo states "[we] explained to [the Department of Defense], FBI has been successful for many years obtaining confessions via non-confrontational interviewing techniques." (see also this)

Brigadier General David R. Irvine, retired Army Reserve strategic intelligence officer who taught prisoner interrogation and military law for 18 years with the Sixth Army Intelligence School, says torture doesn't work
A former FBI interrogator -- who interrogated Al Qaeda suspects -- says categorically that torture does not help collect intelligence. On the other hand he says that torture actually turns people into terrorists
A 30-year veteran of CIA’s operations directorate who rose to the most senior managerial ranks, says:

“The administration’s claims of having ‘saved thousands of Americans’ can be dismissed out of hand because credible evidence has never been offered — not even an authoritative leak of any major terrorist operation interdicted based on information gathered from these interrogations in the past seven years. … It is irresponsible for any administration not to tell a credible story that would convince critics at home and abroad that this torture has served some useful purpose.

This is not just because the old hands overwhelmingly believe that torture doesn’t work — it doesn’t — but also because they know that torture creates more terrorists and fosters more acts of terror than it could possibly neutralize.”

The FBI interrogators who actually interviewed some of the 9/11 suspects say torture didn't work
Still don't believe it? These people also say torture doesn't produce usable intelligence:

Former high-level CIA official Bob Baer said "And torture -- I just don't think it really works ... you don't get the truth. What happens when you torture people is, they figure out what you want to hear and they tell you."
Rear Admiral (ret.) John Hutson, former Judge Advocate General for the Navy, said "Another objection is that torture doesn't work. All the literature and experts say that if we really want usable information, we should go exactly the opposite way and try to gain the trust and confidence of the prisoners."
Michael Scheuer, formerly a senior CIA official in the Counter-Terrorism Center, said "I personally think that any information gotten through extreme methods of torture would probably be pretty useless because it would be someone telling you what you wanted to hear."
Dan Coleman, one of the FBI agents assigned to the 9/11 suspects held at Guantanamo said "Brutalization doesn't work. We know that. "
Many other professional interrogators say the same thing (see this, this, and this).

Indeed, top World War 2 interrogators got more information without torture than those who use torture are getting today.

Torture is certainly immoral, inhumane, and an illegal war crime. However, until people realize that it doesn't work, it will not stop, and those responsible will not be held accountable.

George Washington's Blog: Forget Morality, Humanity or Legality: Torture DOESN'T WORK

 

[jreeves]

The experts in intelligence have said that the tools afforded to them before the executive order were useful.

Which experts?

You will probably find experts on both sides of this argument. Obama has better intel on this than you or I, so I will go along with him until proven wrong.

We lived this long with formally making torture part of our culture why do we need to start now. Please don't come back with "everything changed after 9-11." It didn't.

Only the head of the intelligence agency that provides 90% of the information that our country uses to protect itself. Things did change after 9/11, our country was never attacked to that magnitude on our soil. AQ was a threat before 9/11 but we didn't have a clue. Much like we won't have a clue when they will strike again, due to a few strokes of a pen.

 

[Annie]

Just wondering Jreeves, do the couple successes of the CIA make up for all the mistakes they've made in their history?

Just wondering Robert, do the successes of CIA negate the mistakes? Would it be better that we have no intel, rather than imperfect?

 

[ReillyT]

The experts in intelligence have said that the tools afforded to them before the executive order were useful.

Which experts?

You will probably find experts on both sides of this argument. Obama has better intel on this than you or I, so I will go along with him until proven wrong.

We lived this long with formally making torture part of our culture why do we need to start now. Please don't come back with "everything changed after 9-11." It didn't.

Only the head of the intelligence agency that provides 90% of the information that our country uses to protect itself. Things did change after 9/11, our country was never attacked to that magnitude on our soil. AQ was a threat before 9/11 but we didn't have a clue. Much like we won't have a clue when they will strike again, due to a few strokes of a pen.

Hopefully, the "war on terror" will end, because it was an atrocious and inaccurate phrase to describe the current state of anti-terrorism efforts. However, if you think that we have been set back 8 years and lose all of our intelligence capability because Obama has rejected harsh interrogation techniques (read "torture"), then... well... there is no then, that is just silly.