NSA collecting phone records of millions of Verizon users: Why?

[Circe]

Reuters:
Edward Snowden is a "hero" who has exposed "one of the most serious events of the decade - the creeping formulation of a mass surveillance state", Julian Assange said on Monday.

Yeah.....we ARE living in a mass surveillance state, like the East German Stazi, only much more effective.

flacaltenn: you post about the government not knowing the content of the phone calls, but why wouldn't they? We know they have the content of all the posts, all the emails and Facebook and Tweets and so on -- given that the phone calls they have all the records on are digitalized voice communications for the most part, why wouldn't they also have the content, the words, with all the rest?

 

[flacaltenn]

Reuters:
Edward Snowden is a "hero" who has exposed "one of the most serious events of the decade - the creeping formulation of a mass surveillance state", Julian Assange said on Monday.

Yeah.....we ARE living in a mass surveillance state, like the East German Stazi, only much more effective.

flacaltenn: you post about the government not knowing the content of the phone calls, but why wouldn't they? We know they have the content of all the posts, all the emails and Facebook and Tweets and so on -- given that the phone calls they have all the records on are digitalized voice communications for the most part, why wouldn't they also have the content, the words, with all the rest?

That my bud is either simply a matter of storage (a matter that Snowden alluded to) or because they still respect the need for a regular type of warrant before listening or recording. Even as compressed data, saving CONTENT has to be done selectively.... Besides, digital packet traffic doesn't really all go thru a central switcher anymore. U'd need a wide network of tap points to monitor it. That's why they are sucking one company at a time and making the COMPANY responsible for supplying them the tap points.

Now there might an opportunity to use the preliminary filtering of the phone metadata or Prism emails to SELECT packets of content for recording and further analysis, but that would be illegal. (huh).

 

[Ravi]

I would hope you'd know that given your expressed opinions that I've read..

In the Biz records part of the Patriotic Act, there is sanctuary given for blanket requests of data from "US Citizens, US legal residents and OTHERS residing in the borders of the US".

MEANING -- the data HAD to have a foreign connection. Literally, the 9/11 hijackers would have been protected unless they were stupid enough to call out of the country. Terrorists KNEW previous to 9/11 that all trans-ocean traffic could be monitored WITHOUT all these fancy new toys.

CLEARLY -- the scope of BOTH programs has exceeded this authorization. Not to mention that since the 70s, the NSA was expressly FORBIDDEN to engage in any domestic data collection or processing. There are very good reasons for not allowing this group that leeway. Even USED to say that on their homepage. YOU go there now to verify. OK???

But I've known for years that they MUST be having access to ALL of the data, because to TRAIN a data-mining system like they claim to have to find terrorists ALREADY IN THE US, they must train on INNOCENT data as well as SUSPICIOUS data. That's how these systems work. And NO -- I did not just leak classified info.. MILLIONS of scientists and engineers in the country understand the power and construction of intelligience gathering programs.

I believe you are misrepresenting what we know of as the facts. There is no evidence that anyone other than foreigners are being data-mined, aside from the phone records which are impersonal and used to search for patterns.

Now, I don't approve of the latter but I certainly don't see it as illegal. If you have some concrete evidence that shows that it is feel free to post it.

I read your footer about being "close-minded".. The phone records are enough.. lemme quote from a thread I posted over the weekend here.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/7339759-post1.html

What is phone metadata? It's the record of phone contacts, length of call, time and date, [[I left out tower locations -- FlaCalTenn edit today]]. Essentially the same info that generates the company's billing record. We're supposed to be relieved that the CONTENT of that call is not monitored... But what could you do with metadata?

1) Your client list
2) Your accountant, doctors, brokers
3) A pretty clear picture of who you donate to
4) A good guess as to whether you are having an affair
5) Your bank and credit holders
6) Where you've been
7) How long you were there

.....
8) Establish your connection to known gang members or former criminals even if the guy just mows your lawn.

In fact -- once all this data is mined and refined -- there will be a 15 foot display board in the control room that can spot potential gangs in every major city. Wont NEED to subpeona journalists, They will already know who they call and who their sources unless they meet in a parking garage..

And WE --- will be meeting in an alleyway instead of on USMB...

9) become a target of an investigation if a terrorist related suspect dials a wrong number and it's yours..

I'm telling you that it's common science and engineering to do "data-mining" and that it's impossible to determine a suspicious pattern without training on ALL of the data you expect to see.

We can do the abuses of the PRISM email system some other time. But the calculus of Bush and Congress and Obama and Rove and Feinstein and ALL OF THE PEOPLE directing these abuses are -- that you and the other American citizens are too stupid to LEARN what can be determined from this data. So that your Dear Leader can just chuckle and tell you -- "Hey --- lighten up.. It's not like we're listening to your calls".

So unless you want to invest 20 years in Machine Intelligience and Engineering with a stint in the Intel biz [[hint, hint]]--- you'd better learn some of this from others before you determine that "it's not a problem"..

Your opinion isn't fact. Feel free to show me some facts.

 

[Circe]

[
That my bud is either simply a matter of storage (a matter that Snowden alluded to) or because they still respect the need for a regular type of warrant before listening or recording. Even as compressed data, saving CONTENT has to be done selectively.... Besides, digital packet traffic doesn't really all go thru a central switcher anymore. U'd need a wide network of tap points to monitor it. That's why they are sucking one company at a time and making the COMPANY responsible for supplying them the tap points.

Now there might an opportunity to use the preliminary filtering of the phone metadata or Prism emails to SELECT packets of content for recording and further analysis, but that would be illegal. (huh).

They can't care much about the legality given that they record so much email and posts and Facebook and so on. That's direct quote content, after all. A lot of it private, such as email and blocked Facebook pages.

I agree we think there are storage issues, but I would have thought there were storage issues with the other data we now know they collect; apparently not. I think it's best to assume the government records all phone calls now.

I am sad that things have gone downhill so much in terms of our original freedoms in this country.

 

[flacaltenn]

I believe you are misrepresenting what we know of as the facts. There is no evidence that anyone other than foreigners are being data-mined, aside from the phone records which are impersonal and used to search for patterns.

Now, I don't approve of the latter but I certainly don't see it as illegal. If you have some concrete evidence that shows that it is feel free to post it.

I read your footer about being "close-minded".. The phone records are enough.. lemme quote from a thread I posted over the weekend here.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/7339759-post1.html

What is phone metadata? It's the record of phone contacts, length of call, time and date, [[I left out tower locations -- FlaCalTenn edit today]]. Essentially the same info that generates the company's billing record. We're supposed to be relieved that the CONTENT of that call is not monitored... But what could you do with metadata?

1) Your client list
2) Your accountant, doctors, brokers
3) A pretty clear picture of who you donate to
4) A good guess as to whether you are having an affair
5) Your bank and credit holders
6) Where you've been
7) How long you were there

.....
8) Establish your connection to known gang members or former criminals even if the guy just mows your lawn.

In fact -- once all this data is mined and refined -- there will be a 15 foot display board in the control room that can spot potential gangs in every major city. Wont NEED to subpeona journalists, They will already know who they call and who their sources unless they meet in a parking garage..

And WE --- will be meeting in an alleyway instead of on USMB...

9) become a target of an investigation if a terrorist related suspect dials a wrong number and it's yours..

I'm telling you that it's common science and engineering to do "data-mining" and that it's impossible to determine a suspicious pattern without training on ALL of the data you expect to see.

We can do the abuses of the PRISM email system some other time. But the calculus of Bush and Congress and Obama and Rove and Feinstein and ALL OF THE PEOPLE directing these abuses are -- that you and the other American citizens are too stupid to LEARN what can be determined from this data. So that your Dear Leader can just chuckle and tell you -- "Hey --- lighten up.. It's not like we're listening to your calls".

So unless you want to invest 20 years in Machine Intelligience and Engineering with a stint in the Intel biz [[hint, hint]]--- you'd better learn some of this from others before you determine that "it's not a problem"..

Your opinion isn't fact. Feel free to show me some facts.

I just did.. If you got 20 years in engineering and exposure to machine learning algorithms with a couple published papers, and an enlistment in the spy biz --- feel free to debate my conclusions. Or remain ignorant and belligerent and fulfill the Congressional and Presidential expectations that the general public will never figure out what we're doing..

Which ya wanna do Ravi? I'll take the rest of the day to explain neural networks, and Markov Processes, probabilites of detection theory and machine learning algorithms to ya if ya want. But you'll have to buy me dinner..

 

[paulitician]

Man, the Butt-Hurt Dear Leader-Worshippers really are embarrassing themselves at this point. They continue to defend the indefensible. How do they sleep at night?

 

[Ravi]

I read your footer about being "close-minded".. The phone records are enough.. lemme quote from a thread I posted over the weekend here.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/7339759-post1.html



9) become a target of an investigation if a terrorist related suspect dials a wrong number and it's yours..

I'm telling you that it's common science and engineering to do "data-mining" and that it's impossible to determine a suspicious pattern without training on ALL of the data you expect to see.

We can do the abuses of the PRISM email system some other time. But the calculus of Bush and Congress and Obama and Rove and Feinstein and ALL OF THE PEOPLE directing these abuses are -- that you and the other American citizens are too stupid to LEARN what can be determined from this data. So that your Dear Leader can just chuckle and tell you -- "Hey --- lighten up.. It's not like we're listening to your calls".

So unless you want to invest 20 years in Machine Intelligience and Engineering with a stint in the Intel biz [[hint, hint]]--- you'd better learn some of this from others before you determine that "it's not a problem"..

Your opinion isn't fact. Feel free to show me some facts.

I just did.. If you got 20 years in engineering and exposure to machine learning algorithms with a couple published papers, and an enlistment in the spy biz --- feel free to debate my conclusions. Or remain ignorant and belligerent and fulfill the Congressional and Presidential expectations that the general public will never figure out what we're doing..

Which ya wanna do Ravi? I'll take the rest of the day to explain neural networks, and Markov Processes, probabilites of detection theory and machine learning algorithms to ya if ya want. But you'll have to buy me dinner..

I want you to explain to me what was done that was illegal.

The way it appears is that after Bush got busted for warrantless wiretaps and agreed to stop doing them, things went back to the way they'd been before where warrants are gotten from FISA. I see no evidence or even any suggestion that FISA did not grant the warrants.

So explain what you claim to be happening that is illegal. I don't think you can. If, however, you want to make the case that the FISA court shouldn't be secret I might actually agree with you.

 

[flacaltenn]

Your opinion isn't fact. Feel free to show me some facts.

I just did.. If you got 20 years in engineering and exposure to machine learning algorithms with a couple published papers, and an enlistment in the spy biz --- feel free to debate my conclusions. Or remain ignorant and belligerent and fulfill the Congressional and Presidential expectations that the general public will never figure out what we're doing..

Which ya wanna do Ravi? I'll take the rest of the day to explain neural networks, and Markov Processes, probabilites of detection theory and machine learning algorithms to ya if ya want. But you'll have to buy me dinner..

I want you to explain to me what was done that was illegal.

The way it appears is that after Bush got busted for warrantless wiretaps and agreed to stop doing them, things went back to the way they'd been before where warrants are gotten from FISA. I see no evidence or even any suggestion that FISA did not grant the warrants.

So explain what you claim to be happening that is illegal. I don't think you can. If, however, you want to make the case that the FISA court shouldn't be secret I might actually agree with you.

I think I did that a page or so back. The protection built into the Patriot Act for US citizens or any warm body residing inn the US is clearly being violated. Not to mention the scope of the NSA charter to NOT obtain or process domestic communications or signals.

What part of the difference between spying on trans-ocean communications and spying on grandma don't you understand??

Forget the exact violation of law or Constitution..

Just the fact that in this process, the companies being mugged can't even SHOW the public the warrant or appeal the demands in public court. That's not illegal, but it's COMPLETELY UNNECCESSARY if the law was being followed.. The warrant would say we "want all your data coupled to an overseas party". No security issue there. Is there?

Everytime the FISA renews one of these warrants, have them run a press release in the NYTimes stating so and the approximate scope of the warrant. It's not done because each one of them would remind the public that THEIR CARRIER is giving up their data. AND because they'd be lying about the scope complying with the Patriot Act.

See what I did there? That's logic and reason and a little self thought. Really powerful stuff.

One good thing about this blow-up.. Folks can really see how the hired media henchmen and politicians lie and spin.. And exactly who they are... Keep it up guys.

 

[FA_Q2]

What's the big deal? Both parties are doing the same thing.

It's OK to lose your rights as long as you FEEL safer....

wait, if it only makes you feel safer and you give up your rights then what is left to protect you when you haven't done anything wrong?

Those who would give up their rights and freedoms for temporary safety deserve neither safety nor their rights and freedoms.

^

No.

In a mature view (thus, one you clearly cannot hope to comprehend), there IS such a thing as a society authorizing limited incursions into our liberties or even our privacy interests in order to seek greater protection from a known and real threat.

As I noted earlier (citing a story linked at Drudge), there is good reason to believe that the program DID help NY City avoid another terrorist attack (the subway one).

The program appears to have merit. The NEED for strict scrutiny is still always crucial.

No, it does not have merit because the government will ALWAYS expand or abuse such brad and encompassing power. This is not about a badly written law. It does not matter how well they wrote the law; this is simply the result when you shriek rights in this manner.

 

[FA_Q2]

I read your footer about being "close-minded".. The phone records are enough.. lemme quote from a thread I posted over the weekend here.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/7339759-post1.html



9) become a target of an investigation if a terrorist related suspect dials a wrong number and it's yours..

I'm telling you that it's common science and engineering to do "data-mining" and that it's impossible to determine a suspicious pattern without training on ALL of the data you expect to see.

We can do the abuses of the PRISM email system some other time. But the calculus of Bush and Congress and Obama and Rove and Feinstein and ALL OF THE PEOPLE directing these abuses are -- that you and the other American citizens are too stupid to LEARN what can be determined from this data. So that your Dear Leader can just chuckle and tell you -- "Hey --- lighten up.. It's not like we're listening to your calls".

So unless you want to invest 20 years in Machine Intelligience and Engineering with a stint in the Intel biz [[hint, hint]]--- you'd better learn some of this from others before you determine that "it's not a problem"..

Your opinion isn't fact. Feel free to show me some facts.

I just did.. If you got 20 years in engineering and exposure to machine learning algorithms with a couple published papers, and an enlistment in the spy biz --- feel free to debate my conclusions. Or remain ignorant and belligerent and fulfill the Congressional and Presidential expectations that the general public will never figure out what we're doing..

Which ya wanna do Ravi? I'll take the rest of the day to explain neural networks, and Markov Processes, probabilites of detection theory and machine learning algorithms to ya if ya want. But you'll have to buy me dinner..

 

[Antares]

Your opinion isn't fact. Feel free to show me some facts.

I just did.. If you got 20 years in engineering and exposure to machine learning algorithms with a couple published papers, and an enlistment in the spy biz --- feel free to debate my conclusions. Or remain ignorant and belligerent and fulfill the Congressional and Presidential expectations that the general public will never figure out what we're doing..

Which ya wanna do Ravi? I'll take the rest of the day to explain neural networks, and Markov Processes, probabilites of detection theory and machine learning algorithms to ya if ya want. But you'll have to buy me dinner..

I want you to explain to me what was done that was illegal.

I see no evidence or even any suggestion that FISA did not grant the warrants.

So explain what you claim to be happening that is illegal. I don't think you can. If, however, you want to make the case that the FISA court shouldn't be secret I might actually agree with you.

The way it appears is that after Bush got busted for warrantless wiretaps and agreed to stop doing them, things went back to the way they'd been before where warrants are gotten from FISA.

Not what happened sista.
You are quite ignorant.

Now I can show you the FISA Decision that was REVIEWED by the FISA Court of review ( you didn't even know that existed assbite) AND upheld.

I wouldn't rag you like this but you are an ignorant *****.

 

[boedicca]

Man, the Butt-Hurt Dear Leader-Worshippers really are embarrassing themselves at this point. They continue to defend the indefensible. How do they sleep at night?

Duh.

They take a big hit of Hopium and pass out.

 

[Ravi]

I just did.. If you got 20 years in engineering and exposure to machine learning algorithms with a couple published papers, and an enlistment in the spy biz --- feel free to debate my conclusions. Or remain ignorant and belligerent and fulfill the Congressional and Presidential expectations that the general public will never figure out what we're doing..

Which ya wanna do Ravi? I'll take the rest of the day to explain neural networks, and Markov Processes, probabilites of detection theory and machine learning algorithms to ya if ya want. But you'll have to buy me dinner..

I want you to explain to me what was done that was illegal.

The way it appears is that after Bush got busted for warrantless wiretaps and agreed to stop doing them, things went back to the way they'd been before where warrants are gotten from FISA. I see no evidence or even any suggestion that FISA did not grant the warrants.

So explain what you claim to be happening that is illegal. I don't think you can. If, however, you want to make the case that the FISA court shouldn't be secret I might actually agree with you.

I think I did that a page or so back. The protection built into the Patriot Act for US citizens or any warm body residing inn the US is clearly being violated. Not to mention the scope of the NSA charter to NOT obtain or process domestic communications or signals.

What part of the difference between spying on trans-ocean communications and spying on grandma don't you understand??

Forget the exact violation of law or Constitution..

Just the fact that in this process, the companies being mugged can't even SHOW the public the warrant or appeal the demands in public court. That's not illegal, but it's COMPLETELY UNNECCESSARY if the law was being followed.. The warrant would say we "want all your data coupled to an overseas party". No security issue there. Is there?

Everytime the FISA renews one of these warrants, have them run a press release in the NYTimes stating so and the approximate scope of the warrant. It's not done because each one of them would remind the public that THEIR CARRIER is giving up their data. AND because they'd be lying about the scope complying with the Patriot Act.

See what I did there? That's logic and reason and a little self thought. Really powerful stuff.

One good thing about this blow-up.. Folks can really see how the hired media henchmen and politicians lie and spin.. And exactly who they are... Keep it up guys.

Well, you tried but you failed to show me what they are doing that is illegal.

 

[boedicca]

It looks like the IRS is getting some new equipment to help with the data collection!

“The following descriptions are vague due to the use and nature of the items,” it says.

“If you feel that you can provide the following equipment, please respond to this email no later than 4 days after the solicitation date,” the IRS said.

Among the items the agency will purchase are four “Covert Coffee tray(s) with Camera concealment,” and four “Remote surveillance system(s)” with “Built-in DVD Burner and 2 Internal HDDs, cameras.”

The IRS also is buying four cameras to hide in plants: “(QTY 4) Plant Concealment Color 700 Lines Color IP Camera Concealment with Single Channel Network Server, supports dual video stream, Poe [Power over Ethernet], software included, case included, router included.”

Finishing out the order are four “Color IP Camera Concealment with single channel network server, supports dual video stream, poe, webviewer and cms software included, audio,” and two “Concealed clock radio.”...

IRS Buying Spying Equipment: Covert Cameras in Coffee Trays, Plants | CNS News

 

[Antares]

Ravi honey....did you not want to learn the truth?

 

[Mertex]

And in a couple years you'll be saying "They're just gathering the names. It's not like they're gathering their addresses"

Then, after that, it'll be "So they're gathering the names and addresses. It's not like they're going door-to-door"

Camel's nose, hell!
Half his damned body is in the tent now

Er, if they have the cell phone number, they don't have to wait another year to get the name, like it goes with the number!

U'r too stone stupid to keep your freedom in a republic like ours.. You don't think enough..
You need to shop for a good benevolent dictatorship, where you can be happy and safe.

Maybe Cuba? It's close and convienient...

Your too stupid to quit watching Glenn Beck. Besides, the Repugnants with their guns will protect all of us when the guvment comes after us!

 

[flacaltenn]

Your opinion isn't fact. Feel free to show me some facts.

I just did.. If you got 20 years in engineering and exposure to machine learning algorithms with a couple published papers, and an enlistment in the spy biz --- feel free to debate my conclusions. Or remain ignorant and belligerent and fulfill the Congressional and Presidential expectations that the general public will never figure out what we're doing..

Which ya wanna do Ravi? I'll take the rest of the day to explain neural networks, and Markov Processes, probabilites of detection theory and machine learning algorithms to ya if ya want. But you'll have to buy me dinner..

Just the stuff I had in mind.. Hope you don't eat like that every night...

Might be servin up some Crow at my place for the die-hard hold-outs still telling everyone we can trust the govt to handle all this.