Not Our War

[Correll]

Yes, Yes, Yes, and staying out of WW1 would have prevented much of WW2

The way we were drawn into WWI, was pretty shitty.

 

[Concerned American]

I'm assuming you would have objected to USA getting involved in Kuwait, Korea, WW1, and WW2?

Kuwait, like Iraq, was created by the Bush's and was a cluster. Korea, like Vietnam was not a war that they had any intention of winning, so yeah, I am opposed to those. WWI was over a hundred years ago, try again. WWII? We were forced into the war in the Pacific by Japan and the European theater of operations was a total mess. Apples and Oranges. Russia and Ukraine can fight out their own border problems the same as we are doing here on our southern border.

 

[AveMarica]

Kuwait, like Iraq, was created by the Bush's and was a cluster. Korea, like Vietnam was not a war that they had any intention of winning, so yeah, I am opposed to those. WWI was over a hundred years ago, try again. WWII? We were forced into the war in the Pacific by Japan and the European theater of operations was a total mess. Apples and Oranges. Russia and Ukraine can fight out their own border problems the same as we are doing here on our southern border.

So you were opposed to US intervening after Saddam invaded Kuwait. I'm skeptical, I think you're a standard MAGA follower who changes their spots to conform to their leader's whims.

Korea and Vietnam both had intentions of winning.

WW1 time frame doesn't automatically exclude it from discussion..

WW2 USA was supporting European allies well before war with Japan, you were against that? Answer instead of dodging and weaving.

 

[AveMarica]

Yes, Yes, Yes, and staying out of WW1 would have prevented much of WW2

Good thing you weren't in charge of Kuwait would be part of Iraq, Europe would be German and Russian.

 

[AveMarica]

Ukraine can fight to the last man, woman and child. That is their choice.

Correct.

You can send all your money and go die there. That is your choice

That isn't how it works, we send money and we are.

Me. I dont want to spend money on ENDLESS WARS ANYMORE.

So you support Russia just taking what they want, land, children, etc.

 

[AveMarica]

Assume makes an ass out of you and me.

You Assumed WRONG

They you're a hypocrite. What a surprise.

 

[AveMarica]

Because your position and arguments seem to be based on the expectation that the ukrainians are in a posiiton to achieve their goals in a reasonable time frame. Which we've agreed is unlikely.






That's a dishonest or extremely stupid statement. Your position is the one that doesn't add up. You admit that the war is a meatgrinder, yet you talk as though Ukaine might achieve their goals...soon. Constantly and repeatedly.



Depending on the motives of the people supporting it, it could very well be a proxy war. You have admitted to appreciating the weakening of your enemy, ie the Russians. I've discussed with, or heard many libs make similar arguments.




And that is just a flat out lie from you. That you felt a need to lie about my position, is you feeling the weakness of the TRUTH of your positon.





I doubt that that is true. And there is nothing wrong about pointing out that the choice in teh election on this issue, was Biden/ Harris, war, and Trump attempted peace. '

That's the truth of the matter and it is...good and NEEDED for such discussions to be truthful. People are DYING by the thousands, we need to discuss this issue seriously and honestly.




And you pivot to spamming a neg, to avoid addressing my point. Typical lefty "debating" bullshit.




And AGAIN, you ignore my answer to your previous point and just spam negs.




That is a flat out lie. CONSTANTLY when I try to get lefties such as your self, to discuss how long they are willing to see the war continue or how many ukrainians they are willing to see die, they refuse to discuss the issue in those terms at all, they universially pivot to spamming talking points about "
Ukaines choice" or "self defense" to avoid giving an answer to the question(s).






Meaningless... filler. Self puffery? Whatever. Really stupid.

Yeah it sucks to admit that to yourself doesn't it.

A stalemate that is unlikely to end anytime soon, and is bleeding your nation white, is certainly a valid reason to accept harsh terms.

Every stalemate in history has ended. What nation has been bled white?

Thank you for admitting you want to accept rewarding Russia with Ukranian land and children. Despicable.

Especially when it is a real possibility that the change that will occurr, will be YOUR nation losing faster, not the other way around.

Earlier you said stalemate, you're contradicting yourself. Again.

NOw, you are just pure shit talking.

He said, dodging again.

I support an negotiated peace deal, becuase I don't see Ukaine being able to win this war, at all, and certainly not in anything resembling a reasonable time frame.

That is a nice way of saying your support Russia being awarded Ukraine's land, resources, children, and future rights of self direction.

I don't believe that an aging Putin will be up for another adventure like this, within his remaining life and I expect that the next Russia leader will be in a weaker position.

That is incredibly naive.

So, I disagree with your assumption of more war.

Especially if we do some decent diplomancy now and moving forward.

Oh yeah man the country that has attacked neighbors and again and again will stop... now. The logic leaps folks will make to support dear leader is hilarious to watch.

 

[AveMarica]

I'm addressing your postion, ie that the war could end in a reasonable time frame. YOu seem to have as a basis for your belief, just some airy good vibe based wishes.

Russian population 147 million. Ukrainian popoulation, in ukrainian controlled areas, may be down to under 30 million.


That's the basis for my negative feelings on the war going Ukrain'es way, ie RUSSIA is much bigger than it.







Now you are just spamming negs, instead of engaging in real discussion. That's the type of shit people do, when they know they are in the wrong.

You are speaking of "Want's" as though we are plaing a game where we can make up the reality of the situation as we go.

What we WANT, and what we can REASONABLY HOPE TO ACHIEVE, are two very different things.

Whatt I WANT, if we want to discuss magical thinking wishs, is for Russia to change into a peace loving real democracy, adn to hold election and to elect a peace loving... teddy bear of a man, who loves his children more then he loves moving lines on a map.

You sound like an ignorant young woman giving a speech at a Ms. America pageant.

What we can reasonable achieve, is two things, either hte meatgrinder going on, with thousands, or tens of thousands dying every year, if not Amore, OR cut a deal, where Russia likely gets to keep Ukainian territory, but Ukraine gets to survive as a viable state and to rebuild and live.

So you want Russia to be awarded for their aggression by giving them Ukrainian land, resources, and children. You want Russia to be able to dictate Ukraine's political alliances.

Am I happy with those choices? You act like I am loving it. That is just you being a shit talker. That reflects on YOU, not me, not at all.

No, I'm pointing out what you want and you're desperately trying to frame it as any other way and attack me for shining the light on what you're after here.

And here you just spam your evasive talking points. Meaningless garbage.

Because you're painted in a corner.

Agreed. THis is bleeding Russia white. They are straining to keep up their miltary effort, no doubt about that.

On the other hand, Ukraine has taking plenty of losses too. It is also worth noting that this fighting is taking place IN Ukaine, so many of their cities have extensive damage, significant portions of their population and economy are lost to them under russian occupation, and millions have fled the country.

Oh now we wouldn't want people fleeing the country, instead you want to hand Russia their children so you can have a peace deal.

Looking at just the strain on one side of the conflict, is not a serious... it is not the action of a serious or honest person. It is hte act of someone who is supporting a policy but isn't able to defend their support of hte policy HONESTLY.

This is the opposite of what is happening here. All you've done is try to avoid you want to reward Russian aggression, and have demonstrated how blindly loyal you are to Trump with the "oh well he tried" thing on ending the war on day 1.

 

[AveMarica]

I'm addressing your postion, ie that the war could end in a reasonable time frame. YOu seem to have as a basis for your belief, just some airy good vibe based wishes.

Russian population 147 million. Ukrainian popoulation, in ukrainian controlled areas, may be down to under 30 million.


That's the basis for my negative feelings on the war going Ukrain'es way, ie RUSSIA is much bigger than it.

If using a 3rd grade level understanding of how war and domestic poilitics work.

Now you are just spamming negs, instead of engaging in real discussion. That's the type of shit people do, when they know they are in the wrong.

Pot, meet kettle.

what you're after here.

And here you just spam your evasive talking points. Meaningless garbage.

Because you're painted in a corner.

Agreed. THis is bleeding Russia white. They are straining to keep up their miltary effort, no doubt about that.

On the other hand, Ukraine has taking plenty of losses too. It is also worth noting that this fighting is taking place IN Ukaine, so many of their cities have extensive damage, significant portions of their population and economy are lost to them under russian occupation, and millions have fled the country.

Oh now we wouldn't want people fleeing the country, instead you want to hand Russia their children so you can have a peace deal.

Looking at just the strain on one side of the conflict, is not a serious... it is not the action of a serious or honest person. It is hte act of someone who is supporting a policy but isn't able to defend their support of hte policy HONESTLY.

This is the opposite of what is happening here. All you've done is try to avoid you want to reward Russian aggression, and have demonstrated how blindly loyal you are to Trump with the "oh well he tried" thing on ending the war on day 1.

 

[AveMarica]

Yet when I try to get you to explain why you think Ukraine might win in "a year", you just sort of fade away.

I never said that, why do you lie if you know I'd know?

But the "Side effect" of weakening russia, that is a real and massive factor. Especially for someone like you how assumes more wars in the future.

Yes I see the country led by a dictator who had shown a pattern of invading neighbors, you just go well I think he's done now. Naive.

First of all, I'm not intimidated at all, by your constant use of spin, to try to paint my postition in a negative light.

Sucks admitting who you are doesn't it?

Second of all, I am completely comfortable discussing my belief that any deal is likely to involve Russia keeping much if not all of the lands they have already taken.

Yet you avoid admitting it whenever possible.

So, when you say stupid shit like that, that I have repeatedly debunked, you are just spamming shit talk. That's not good.

You have debunked nothing, just gone on exercises of hilarious trying to convince yourself of it.

I think that we have a serious, but valid disagreement on policy here. If you were honest about your position, I think we could find the crux of the disagreement and I think that I could respect your position, if you explained it fully.

You're the one hiding ffrom your position by trying to frame it as something different and crying whenever it is shown.

Oddly, I dont' think that YOU think that. I think that you are ashamed that you are willing to spend the lives of other people in support of real politic goals.

I'm not ashamed of supporting Ukraine's right to defend themselves from aggressive invasion, especially when my countrymen who are caught up n a cult of personality want to just cede away their land and people.

You've admitted it is a real thing, ie the weakening of our enemy Russia. THe question of how much that is causing teh support for the war, from US, or Europe is a valid question. And the more you are evasive in the discussion, or the more you do silly shit like shit talk, or use spamming of negs, as a supporting argument, the more you make it look like the real reason.

You see evasiveness because you are incapable of building a coherent argument. It has happened over and over, the same you spinning, dodging, and playing the victim.

Me = we should continue support Ukraine's right to defend themselves, just as most other developed nations have done.
You = we should end this war by telling Ukraine to give up their land, resources, and children.

Why are you afraid to discuss this issue seriously?

The battle cry of someone getting stomped on because of their flawed arguments.

 

[JWBooth]

Thank you John Bolton for your insights.

 

[Concerned American]

So you were opposed to US intervening after Saddam invaded Kuwait.

I certainly was opposed. Kuwait was GHWB setting Hussein up. Like most democrats, you have TDS.

Korea and Vietnam both had intentions of winning.

You are sadly mistaken. As for WWI and II, they were totally different wars and to try to compare those with the BS domino theory is more than a stretch. If you are so committed to fighting and supporting the Ukrainian fiasco, load your stuff up and go over there and do it--show your commitment. You might change your tune when your friends and relatives start dying for someone else's war.

 

[Concerned American]

Thank you for admitting you want to accept rewarding Russia with Ukranian land and children.

Where was all this concern when Russia was battling with Georgia and Chechnya? Maybe because Biden didn't have grift going on with them? We have no business entering into regional wars in which we have no interest whatsoever.

 

[Concerned American]

You see evasiveness because you are incapable of building a coherent argument.

You talk a lot, but you haven't made one point. A lot of trolling and attacking others positions, but you haven't made a single point other than MAGA and Russia bad. In both you have ASSUMED incorrectly.

 

[Correll]

Yeah it sucks to admit that to yourself doesn't it.


Every stalemate in history has ended. What nation has been bled white?

Thank you for admitting you want to accept rewarding Russia with Ukranian land and children. Despicable.


Earlier you said stalemate, you're contradicting yourself. Again.



He said, dodging again.



That is a nice way of saying your support Russia being awarded Ukraine's land, resources, children, and future rights of self direction.


That is incredibly naive.


Oh yeah man the country that has attacked neighbors and again and again will stop... now. The logic leaps folks will make to support dear leader is hilarious to watch.

Wow. That was mostly shit talk. The little that was worth responding to.


1. Of course stalemates eventually end. The question is how long to they continue, and how many people die during that.


2. It is an unpleasent truth that Ukraine HAS LOST TERRITORY in this war. YOu keep harping on it, as though the unpleasentness of that, is an argument to keep fighting. I agree that it is unpleasent. My point is that it is an already happened FACT and one that is unlikely to be reversed by Ukraine by force of arms, in any reasonable time.


3. You seem to be very unhappy wtih the idea of the bad guy winning some land. That is understandable. But, just spamming it, like that is the end of the discussion, is childish. THe question is, do you have a reasonable plan to REVERSE that or are you just losing good men to avoid admitting that that land has been lost?

4. This need you have to make this argument personal, is just you being a dick.

 

[Correll]

You sound like an ignorant young woman giving a speech at a Ms. America pageant.

you keep insisting that the policy I SUPPORT, is something I WANT. So, I thought I should let you know exactly what I do WANT, since that seems to be what you focused on.

So you want Russia to be awarded for their aggression by giving them Ukrainian land, resources, and children. You want Russia to be able to dictate Ukraine's political alliances.

I told you what I WANT, I WANT, Putin to fall and a nice teddy bear like man to take over and just give us peace without strife or further death.

No, I'm pointing out what you want and you're desperately trying to frame it as any other way and attack me for shining the light on what you're after here.

I've told you what I WANT, ie I WANT a happy ending with peace and everyone living happily ever after. I'm happy to discuss that, if that is what you want to discuss.

Because you're painted in a corner.

Not at all. It is weird for you to keep saying silly shit like that, when I am happy to discuss the policy I support in detail and without hesitation or evasion.

Oh now we wouldn't want people fleeing the country, instead you want to hand Russia their children so you can have a peace deal.

What a weird thing to say. Nothing in my post, indicated in any way disapproval of their actions. My point was that Ukraine is terribly outnumbered by Russia, and the imbalance seems to be worsening as the war goes on.

A point you evaded, by playing dumb and addressing a fairly stupid strawman.

This is the opposite of what is happening here. All you've done is try to avoid you want to reward Russian aggression, and have demonstrated how blindly loyal you are to Trump with the "oh well he tried" thing on ending the war on day 1.

I've repeatedly stated that I am happy to discuss the policy I support, and the fact that it would include Russia keeping most if not all of the territories it has taken so far.

It is weird that you keep insisting that I am trying to avoid discussing something that I have plainly stated over and over again.



When you pretend to not get that I am supporting a policy not of what I WANT, but of what I think we can reasonable GET, that is you being dishonest.


Why are you dishonest?

 

[Correll]

I never said that, why do you lie if you know I'd know?

Your position seems to be based on the expectation that Ukraine can win in a reasonable time frame. I have tried to get you to be more clear on that, but you have evaded. I thought you said somethign that hinted at a year or ISH, but if not then, it is odd that you did not take this opportunity to clarify how long you think this war might take.


DO YOU THINK UKRAINE CAN WIN, AND IF SO, WHAT IS YOUR GUESS AS TO HOW LONG IT MIGHT TAKE?

Yes I see the country led by a dictator who had shown a pattern of invading neighbors, you just go well I think he's done now. Naive.

And you ignore my point. As normal for you.

Sucks admitting who you are doesn't it?

I don't consider myself defined by my military judgement. And I'm fine with discussing it. It's pretty much the point of this thread, and I'm here to discuss the issue, becasue I think it is a very important issue. And I've been trying to get you to discuss it. Including my analysis and my conclusions and thus the policy I support becasue of it.

All you seem to want to do, is to say the negative cost of the deal, in "shock" as though that... means something.

Yet you avoid admitting it whenever possible.

Err, no, not at all. I'm happy to discucs my belief that any reasonable deal will include Russia keeping much if not all of the territory is has taken from Ukraine. You are the one that seems relucant to discuss the details of YOUR policy or what costs might be associated with it.

You have debunked nothing, just gone on exercises of hilarious trying to convince yourself of it.

You're shit talking.

You're the one hiding ffrom your position by trying to frame it as something different and crying whenever it is shown.

Nope. Happy to discuss it. It is worth noting though, that it is not what I WANT, but it is a hard choice that I am willing to make. Your need to frame it as negatively as possible, is just you being a dick. And afraid to be serious about this issue.

I'm not ashamed of supporting Ukraine's right to defend themselves from aggressive invasion, especially when my countrymen who are caught up n a cult of personality want to just cede away their land and people.

But you are ashamed to discuss how many ukrainian lives you are willing to piss away, for a goal that you admit is unlikely to be achieved.


As well you should be.

You see evasiveness because you are incapable of building a coherent argument. It has happened over and over, the same you spinning, dodging, and playing the victim.

YOu are lying. YOU are the evasive one here, not me. And you are the dick, not me.

Me = we should continue support Ukraine's right to defend themselves, just as most other developed nations have done.
You = we should end this war by telling Ukraine to give up their land, resources, and children.

And again, you avoid admitting that you have admitted that htey are unlikely to achieve their goal of driving the russians out of their terrority.

The battle cry of someone getting stomped on because of their flawed arguments.

LOL.. You shit talk is not working. I am not being cowed by it at all. Everyone can see that you are full of shit.

 

[Zavulon]

It seems to me, that there are some different questions:

1. The questions about values:
a) Do you believe that America should become something like the modern Ukraine? You know, "The Revolution of the White Dignity", High Council of Den-ggerisation and Delatinization, ban of "N-gger's and Latino Music", language patrols on the streets, stealing property without a judge decision (simply by the word of the "President"), ban of opposing parties, murders (including demonstrative mass murders by burning people alive) of poltical opponents, usage of the Army against your own citizens... Would you call it democracy?
b) Have Russia done anything that America haven't done before? Like invasion in Mexico and annexing their territories? Or bombing Serbia for ethnic cleansing? Or invading Iraq for oil and support of terrorism? Or dictating Cuba not to deploy potentially hostile missiles?

2. What is the result we all want to achieve? Is it:
a) The system of the equal rights and equal safety, in which all of us (including Russians and Russian Federation) can feel themselves perfectly safe? Or -
b) The system of discrimination inside states and instability in the international relationships. The system in which certain people inside the states are abused and discriminated, and between the states exists instability and raising temptation to strike first?

3. What is the price America is ready to pay to keep illusion of the control over Europe (being, in fact, controlled by Europe)?
a) Do you believe that America should regain the independence and take control of its own strategic decisions in American hands back again? or -
b) Many thousands (or even millions) of Americans should die to allow Europe achive their goals (and then - defeat America)?

4. Who should be the leader of the West?
a) America;
b) Europe.

 

[Concerned American]

It seems to me, that there are some different questions:

1. The questions about values:
a) Do you believe that America should become something like the modern Ukraine? You know, "The Revolution of the White Dignity", High Council of Den-ggerisation and Delatinization, ban of "N-gger's and Latino Music", language patrols on the streets, stealing property without a judge decision (simply by the word of the "President"), ban of opposing parties, murders (including demonstrative mass murders by burning people alive) of poltical opponents, usage of the Army against your own citizens... Would you call it democracy?
b) Have Russia done anything that America haven't done before? Like invasion in Mexico and annexing their territories? Or bombing Serbia for ethnic cleansing? Or invading Iraq for oil and support of terrorism? Or dictating Cuba not to deploy potentially hostile missiles?

2. What is the result we all want to achieve? Is it:
a) The system of the equal rights and equal safety, in which all of us (including Russians and Russian Federation) can feel themselves perfectly safe? Or -
b) The system of discrimination inside states and instability in the international relationships. The system in which certain people inside the states are abused and discriminated, and between the states exists instability and raising temptation to strike first?

3. What is the price America is ready to pay to keep illusion of the control over Europe (being, in fact, controlled by Europe)?
a) Do you believe that America should regain the independence and take control of its own strategic decisions in American hands back again? or -
b) Many thousands (or even millions) of Americans should die to allow Europe achive their goals (and then - defeat America)?

4. Who should be the leader of the West?
a) America;
b) Europe.

Fantasy. Attila the Hun and many others before him killed untold numbers of people. Irrelevant. Different time, different society. As for your insinuation as to what you think America is--that's your opinion, everyone has one. Regarding the leader of the west, LOL, we've heard the rest of the world complain about America's presence for over 50 years, screw them. Find someone else to extort.

 

[Zavulon]

Fantasy. Attila the Hun and many others before him killed untold numbers of people. Irrelevant. Different time, different society.

Yep. But you don't insist that Attilla the Hun was a nice democratic and self-defending leader, do you? And do you really believe that America back in 1999, 1962 or 1840 was somehow different from the modern one?

As for your insinuation as to what you think America is--that's your opinion, everyone has one. Regarding the leader of the west, LOL, we've heard the rest of the world complain about America's presence for over 50 years, screw them. Find someone else to extort.

Ok, I don't ask you, should America control Europe. I do ask you, should Europe control America and force Americans to fight and die in their wars?