Not Our War

[AveMarica]

Nope. YOu were and continue to be kind of... hestitant about the fact that we both AGREE on the REALITY of the situation, ie that the war has become a meatgrinder with neither side having a clear path to their goals.

Not hesitant at all, you keep trying to pounce on that but you're wasting your time. You can type it 100x more, wear your fingers out.

It is if the real reason for the support, is to use them as proxy's to fight and weaken your enemy, even though you know that they are NOT going to achieve their war goals.

I've already stated more than that as a reason and stated more of their goals, please scroll up.

Cop out. YOu have admitted that they are unlikely to achieve their goals. Supporting them in a fools errand, when the cost is measured in thousand sof human lives is morally wrong.

Stopping Russia from obtaining their goals is also a goal.

The ukrainians are also losing men and material. THey are losing GROUND. Them breaking is always a real possiblity.

With Western support Ukraine can continue to be supplied material. I've seen estimates where at current rate of Russia's gains it would take 25-30 years to take Ukraine. Russia might not be able to economically maintain this war.

I'm ok with taking that hit, ie he has failed to "end the war in one day".

Or one month.
Or three months.

He tried. That is all I could reasonably expect. Better that than the Biden or Harris, happily and endless supporting a meatgrinder with men, women and children dying on a daily basis.

Hah you're giving a master class in political bias clouding worldview.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2022/11/05/ukraine-russia-peace-negotiations/

https://www.npr.org/2022/12/02/1140278989/putin-turns-down-biden-talks-ukraine-war

Biden admin nudge led Ukraine to drop Putin condition for peace talks

Zelenskyy changed course on Monday, ditching the demand for Putin’s ouster before peace talks.

www.politico.com

Biden never promised to end the war in one day. He never even promised to end the war. However his administration participated in various rounds of negotiations. Meanwhile Donald Trump made promised to end the war in one day, failed, and is now saying they will wash their hands of it.

You describe that as Trump at least trying while Biden "happy" to support endless war. Tattoo "partisan" on your forehead, man.

IMO, the fact that your side sees this as a fine GOTCHA moment, while my side sees this as a human tragedy, works for me. Those in America that agree with you about what is important here, can line up with you and vote for your side, and those that agree with me, can vote MAGA.

Vote MAGA! That is what this is about, no matter how much you try to avoid admitting it to yourself. Trump says something, that becomes your worldview too.

Cop out. And a misdirection. No one is talking "surrender". EVERYTIME, you get deceptive, you admit that you know that your position on this issue is weak, if not outright wrong.

You say that because you can't confront the truth. You want Ukraine, who was invaded to surrender land and let Russia dictate their political future, a country that has attacked its neighbors again and again. Calling something a "cop out" instead of confronting it just shows what a weak position you have here.

Nope. I am completely comfortable discussing this issue and being honest about my position.

You get very uncomfortable when your position is exposed to what it is.

MY position is the morally correct one. I'm not the one hiding behind "ukrainian's choice" or bullshit like "surrender" or "appeasement".


YOU'RE the one that seems uncomfortable being honest about what is happening and/or your position on it.

This is false, as proven above.

And again, instead of arguing your position seriously or honestly, you have to lie about mine.


That's your brain dealing with the fact that it knows that your position is false.

The opposite is true. You're cheering for Ukraine to surrender their lands to an invader and hope it doesn't happen again because of what Trump told you to think.

The reality of the situation, the REALITY of it, that we agree on, is that the war in a meatgrinder and UKRAINE has NO clear path to pushing Russia out of ukrainian territory.

No clear path doesn't mean never.

INdeed, Ukraine is slowly LOSING ground on a daily basis.

Russia held more ground in the spring of 22 than they did at the end of the year. Wars change, and nobody knows how long Russia can sustain this one.

To discuss a possibly deal, to end the fighting is the right policy.

So you believe the right policy is to reward aggression with territory and political concessions. I don't, many Republicans who aren't MAGA crazies don't either.

 

[AveMarica]

This is true. That being said, how many years are you thinking of? It's been three. Are you thinking another 3? Or more? Ten? I really hope not ten. That would devestate Ukraine CULTURALLY and Demographically, BEYOND the military and economic effects.

It might be one, who knows.

You're worried about Ukraine being devastated culturally yet support gifting Russia their territory and people. Hypocrite much?

Well, sort of. ON the other hand, RUSSIA is far bigger, so they can afford more losses.

So, a war of attrition, to see who runs out of men first? Ugh. That's horrific. And risky.

It is generally considered a 3-1 advantage for the defender, and Russia has far more internal political risk which is why they've been using prisoners, North Koreans, and senior citizens

 

[AveMarica]

Interesting. I thought it was all about supporting "UKRAINE'S CHOICE",

but this looks like you are thinking of this as a PROXY WAR, that is of benefit to US, by weakening our enemy.

Nice straw man. Ukraine's choice to defend their sovereign land can be an efficient use of US military dollars in weakening a geopolitical rival, nobody has suggested it isn't Ukraine's choice.

 

[AveMarica]

Like you advocating for some to put their lives in danger fighting a war in a foreign land while you, 'so bravely' sit behind your keyboard in your home. You are the worst or the worst kind of hypocritical coward.

I'm advocating we support Ukraine's right to decide to fight for their sovereign land against the invading Russias.

The cowards are the Russian apologists in here trying to use the threat of WW3 to support their political views.

 

[DGS49]

Trump's "mistake" was presuming that Zelensky was not crazy that that Putin was being more or less truthful about what he wanted. Zelensky cannot win. No amount of money or weapons or intelligence (of which the U.S. has provided a virtual goldmine) can win it for Ukraine. Yet Z wants to continue the fight indefinitely, considering every month without a crushing defeat is a small victory. Putin had declared or hinted on several occasions that all he really wanted was a reliable assurance that Ukraine would never be admitted as a NATO member. Trump more or less had his emissaries tell that to Putin, but to no effect.

It's like an arbitrator watching a negotiation from afar and seeing that the parties are talking past one another, saying that he could resolve it quickly if allowed to arbitrate - then finding out that both parties were lying about what they wanted to achieve.

Trump's fault, but not Trump's fault.

But we do know now that the U.S. will not be funding this endless war, at least not primarily. And that is an improvement over Biden's position.

 

[eagle1462010]

I don't succumb to fear mongering. As someone who obviously does, you can't grasp that.

Good for you. You pay for it then.

Im tired of Globalist Endless Wars

 

[Correll]

Not hesitant at all, you keep trying to pounce on that but you're wasting your time. You can type it 100x more, wear your fingers out.

"Pounce on it"? It's the reality of the situation. I think it is important to keep the reality of the situation in mind.

I've already stated more than that as a reason and stated more of their goals, please scroll up.

Sure. You've stated a lot. But much of your statements don't add up. Proxy war makes it all make sense.

Stopping Russia from obtaining their goals is also a goal.

D'uh.

With Western support Ukraine can continue to be supplied material. I've seen estimates where at current rate of Russia's gains it would take 25-30 years to take Ukraine. Russia might not be able to economically maintain this war.

Agreed. And if PROXY WAR, is what you are about, then that would be a great outcome.

IMO, it is not worth the cost in ukrainian lives.

Or one month.
Or three months.



Hah you're giving a master class in political bias clouding worldview.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2022/11/05/ukraine-russia-peace-negotiations/

https://www.npr.org/2022/12/02/1140278989/putin-turns-down-biden-talks-ukraine-war

Biden admin nudge led Ukraine to drop Putin condition for peace talks

Zelenskyy changed course on Monday, ditching the demand for Putin’s ouster before peace talks.

www.politico.com

Biden never promised to end the war in one day. He never even promised to end the war. However his administration participated in various rounds of negotiations. Meanwhile Donald Trump made promised to end the war in one day, failed, and is now saying they will wash their hands of it.

Yet Biden supporters today, are arguing for endless war.... how odd. It is a strange disconnect. Unless somehow you all know that Biden wasn't really serous about that peace talk.

You describe that as Trump at least trying while Biden "happy" to support endless war. Tattoo "partisan" on your forehead, man.

Yet, you attack me viciously for wanting peace, but you support Biden for wanting peace... how strange. Almost like this is shit talk.

Disappointing.

Vote MAGA! That is what this is about, no matter how much you try to avoid admitting it to yourself. Trump says something, that becomes your worldview too.

Dude. My world view was here before Trump was. Trump came to US. If you can't wrap your mind around this, you will be a fool always.

You say that because you can't confront the truth. You want Ukraine, who was invaded to surrender land and let Russia dictate their political future, a country that has attacked its neighbors again and again. Calling something a "cop out" instead of confronting it just shows what a weak position you have here.

Nope. I call it a cop out when YOU use the ukrainains self defense to avoid discussion YOUR reasons or the cost you are willing to pay.

That was my point. YOU are the one using a "cop out" to avoid being serious or honest about YOUR position.

I'm fine with discussing the hard truths or tough choices that my position entails.

You get very uncomfortable when your position is exposed to what it is.


This is false, as proven above.



The opposite is true. You're cheering for Ukraine to surrender their lands to an invader and hope it doesn't happen again because of what Trump told you to think.

When you say stupid shit like this, it is you who is running away from being exposed.

No clear path doesn't mean never.

Did I say "never"? Nope. I did not.

It is POSSIBLE that if the war goes on long enough that the situation could change and Ukraine ... WINS.

Russia held more ground in the spring of 22 than they did at the end of the year. Wars change, and nobody knows how long Russia can sustain this one.

Agreed.

So you believe the right policy is to reward aggression with territory and political concessions. I don't, many Republicans who aren't MAGA crazies don't either.

Rephasing my position to sound bad, is not really a serious discussion move.

It is more a shit talk move.

 

[Correll]

It might be one, who knows.

Doesn't look like one. Looks like a lot more than one. If you could make an argument for ONE, that would make your position a lot more reasonable.

You're worried about Ukraine being devastated culturally yet support gifting Russia their territory and people. Hypocrite much?

Nope. NOt at all. Because that is not my position. NOt even close. You are lying.

If anything I would say that you, who seem willing to spend any number of ukrainian lives, pretending to care about them, is much more hypocritical.

It is generally considered a 3-1 advantage for the defender, and Russia has far more internal political risk which is why they've been using prisoners, North Koreans, and senior citizens

The overall numbers still seem rather small compared to Russia's overall population.

 

[Correll]

Nice straw man. Ukraine's choice to defend their sovereign land can be an efficient use of US military dollars in weakening a geopolitical rival, nobody has suggested it isn't Ukraine's choice.

It was not a strawman, it was pointing out that you have an alterior motive, beyond your oh so principled support of "ukraine's choice".

And you clearly do.

That your response is a LIE, claiming that my point was a strawman, is a very weak and cowardly dodge.


YOu clearly AT BEST, have mixed motives. Yet you refuse to be honest about that.


THat indicates that your alterior motive, is your REAL MOTIVE.

 

[AveMarica]

Good for you. You pay for it then.

Im tired of Globalist Endless Wars

I'm assuming you would have objected to USA getting involved in Kuwait, Korea, WW1, and WW2?

 

[AveMarica]

"Pounce on it"? It's the reality of the situation. I think it is important to keep the reality of the situation in mind.

Yes, something that has been acknowledged and explained why it isn't some closing argument but you keep going back to like a broken record.

Sure. You've stated a lot. But much of your statements don't add up. Proxy war makes it all make sense.

They don't add up because you have a world view based on fealty to Trump.

Agreed. And if PROXY WAR, is what you are about, then that would be a great outcome.

IMO, it is not worth the cost in ukrainian lives.

It isn't a proxy war, you typing in caps doesn't make it so, and yes we've already affirmed your belief that Ukrainians should not be defend their country militarily from an invasion.

Yet Biden supporters today, are arguing for endless war.... how odd. It is a strange disconnect. Unless somehow you all know that Biden wasn't really serous about that peace talk.

Nobody mentioned Biden until you just did. Fail.

Yet, you attack me viciously for wanting peace, but you support Biden for wanting peace... how strange. Almost like this is shit talk.

Disappointing.

No, I attack you for being blinded due to politics and not grasping how the world works.

Dude. My world view was here before Trump was. Trump came to US. If you can't wrap your mind around this, you will be a fool always.

I don't believe you, it is humiliating to accept what you are so you pretend otherwise. People outside of you can see it, and pity.

Nope. I call it a cop out when YOU use the ukrainains self defense to avoid discussion YOUR reasons or the cost you are willing to pay.

Nobody has avoided anything, you just can't wrap your head aroound the answers you get.

That was my point. YOU are the one using a "cop out" to avoid being serious or honest about YOUR position.

I'm fine with discussing the hard truths or tough choices that my position entails.

Again the mystery cop out manufactured to argue against due to being unable to hold your own here.

When you say stupid shit like this, it is you who is running away from being exposed.

Nonsensical.

Did I say "never"? Nope. I did not.

It is POSSIBLE that if the war goes on long enough that the situation could change and Ukraine ... WINS.

Correct, no war has ever gone on forever and a stalemate is not a reason to cede to unacceptable terms and reward the aggressor, which is what you support.

Rephasing my position to sound bad, is not really a serious discussion move.

Being uncomfortable with the light shining on what your position is. Bad move.

It is more a shit talk move.

Because you're getting rolled. You support rewarding the aggressor to save lives instead of making sacrifices to stand up to them, because they have and will do it again and again.

 

[AveMarica]

Doesn't look like one. Looks like a lot more than one. If you could make an argument for ONE, that would make your position a lot more reasonable.

My position has been stated, at this point you're just spending time flailing about like a fish on the dock.

Nope. NOt at all. Because that is not my position. NOt even close. You are lying.

You want to give Russia Ukraine's land as a reward for invading. You're lying in denying that.

If anything I would say that you, who seem willing to spend any number of ukrainian lives, pretending to care about them, is much more hypocritical.

I'm not spending Ukrainian lives, they are. They are choosing to defend the territory that you want them to cede to Russia. They want to be able to choose their political alliances, you want them to agree to not have that choice. You are supporting Russia, it is sick.

The overall numbers still seem rather small compared to Russia's overall population.

Why do you think North Koreans, prisoners and pensioners were fighting? Why do you think Russia's bonus for enlistment has kept on rising to current unsustainable levels? Because they cannot just snap their fingers and tell everyone to go fight in Ukraine, it is too politically risky domestically. They have the support of their population because they are sending the dredges, if the sons of people in Moscow start dying that public opinion would change in a hurry.

 

[AveMarica]

It was not a strawman, it was pointing out that you have an alterior motive, beyond your oh so principled support of "ukraine's choice".

And you clearly do.

The fact that this benefits NATO and every neighbor or Russia by weaking them militarily isn't my motive, it is a side effect.

You're inventing things because you have nothing to stand on other than desperately trying to avoid admitting that you want to reward Russia for invading.

YOu clearly AT BEST, have mixed motives. Yet you refuse to be honest about that.

Thus the strawman, inventing motives to attack. Nice try, but it won't work.

THat indicates that your alterior motive, is your REAL MOTIVE.

Your invention motivations for me is almost as feeble as you pretending you're not supporting Russia by wanting to give them Ukrainian land, resources, and children.

 

[Correll]

Yes, something that has been acknowledged and explained why it isn't some closing argument but you keep going back to like a broken record.

Because your position and arguments seem to be based on the expectation that the ukrainians are in a posiiton to achieve their goals in a reasonable time frame. Which we've agreed is unlikely.

They don't add up because you have a world view based on fealty to Trump.

That's a dishonest or extremely stupid statement. Your position is the one that doesn't add up. You admit that the war is a meatgrinder, yet you talk as though Ukaine might achieve their goals...soon. Constantly and repeatedly.

It isn't a proxy war, you typing in caps doesn't make it so,

Depending on the motives of the people supporting it, it could very well be a proxy war. You have admitted to appreciating the weakening of your enemy, ie the Russians. I've discussed with, or heard many libs make similar arguments.

and yes we've already affirmed your belief that Ukrainians should not be defend their country militarily from an invasion.

And that is just a flat out lie from you. That you felt a need to lie about my position, is you feeling the weakness of the TRUTH of your positon.

Nobody mentioned Biden until you just did. Fail.

I doubt that that is true. And there is nothing wrong about pointing out that the choice in teh election on this issue, was Biden/ Harris, war, and Trump attempted peace. '

That's the truth of the matter and it is...good and NEEDED for such discussions to be truthful. People are DYING by the thousands, we need to discuss this issue seriously and honestly.

No, I attack you for being blinded due to politics and not grasping how the world works.

And you pivot to spamming a neg, to avoid addressing my point. Typical lefty "debating" bullshit.

I don't believe you, it is humiliating to accept what you are so you pretend otherwise. People outside of you can see it, and pity.

And AGAIN, you ignore my answer to your previous point and just spam negs.

Nobody has avoided anything, you just can't wrap your head aroound the answers you get.

That is a flat out lie. CONSTANTLY when I try to get lefties such as your self, to discuss how long they are willing to see the war continue or how many ukrainians they are willing to see die, they refuse to discuss the issue in those terms at all, they universially pivot to spamming talking points about "
Ukaines choice" or "self defense" to avoid giving an answer to the question(s).

Again the mystery cop out manufactured to argue against due to being unable to hold your own here.

Meaningless... filler. Self puffery? Whatever. Really stupid.

Nonsensical.


Correct, no war has ever gone on forever and a stalemate is not a reason to cede to unacceptable terms and reward the aggressor, which is what you support.

A stalemate that is unlikely to end anytime soon, and is bleeding your nation white, is certainly a valid reason to accept harsh terms.


Especially when it is a real possibility that the change that will occurr, will be YOUR nation losing faster, not the other way around.

Being uncomfortable with the light shining on what your position is. Bad move.

NOw, you are just pure shit talking.

Because you're getting rolled. You support rewarding the aggressor to save lives instead of making sacrifices to stand up to them, because they have and will do it again and again.

I support an negotiated peace deal, becuase I don't see Ukaine being able to win this war, at all, and certainly not in anything resembling a reasonable time frame.

I don't believe that an aging Putin will be up for another adventure like this, within his remaining life and I expect that the next Russia leader will be in a weaker position.

So, I disagree with your assumption of more war.

Especially if we do some decent diplomancy now and moving forward.

 

[Correll]

My position has been stated, at this point you're just spending time flailing about like a fish on the dock.

I'm addressing your postion, ie that the war could end in a reasonable time frame. YOu seem to have as a basis for your belief, just some airy good vibe based wishes.

Russian population 147 million. Ukrainian popoulation, in ukrainian controlled areas, may be down to under 30 million.


That's the basis for my negative feelings on the war going Ukrain'es way, ie RUSSIA is much bigger than it.

You want to give Russia Ukraine's land as a reward for invading. You're lying in denying that.

Now you are just spamming negs, instead of engaging in real discussion. That's the type of shit people do, when they know they are in the wrong.

You are speaking of "Want's" as though we are plaing a game where we can make up the reality of the situation as we go.

What we WANT, and what we can REASONABLY HOPE TO ACHIEVE, are two very different things.

Whatt I WANT, if we want to discuss magical thinking wishs, is for Russia to change into a peace loving real democracy, adn to hold election and to elect a peace loving... teddy bear of a man, who loves his children more then he loves moving lines on a map.

What we can reasonable achieve, is two things, either hte meatgrinder going on, with thousands, or tens of thousands dying every year, if not more, OR cut a deal, where Russia likely gets to keep Ukainian territory, but Ukraine gets to survive as a viable state and to rebuild and live.


Am I happy with those choices? You act like I am loving it. That is just you being a shit talker. That reflects on YOU, not me, not at all.

I'm not spending Ukrainian lives, they are. They are choosing to defend the territory that you want them to cede to Russia. They want to be able to choose their political alliances, you want them to agree to not have that choice. You are supporting Russia, it is sick.

And here you just spam your evasive talking points. Meaningless garbage.

Why do you think North Koreans, prisoners and pensioners were fighting? Why do you think Russia's bonus for enlistment has kept on rising to current unsustainable levels? Because they cannot just snap their fingers and tell everyone to go fight in Ukraine, it is too politically risky domestically. They have the support of their population because they are sending the dredges, if the sons of people in Moscow start dying that public opinion would change in a hurry.

Agreed. THis is bleeding Russia white. They are straining to keep up their miltary effort, no doubt about that.

On the other hand, Ukraine has taking plenty of losses too. It is also worth noting that this fighting is taking place IN Ukaine, so many of their cities have extensive damage, significant portions of their population and economy are lost to them under russian occupation, and millions have fled the country.


Looking at just the strain on one side of the conflict, is not a serious... it is not the action of a serious or honest person. It is hte act of someone who is supporting a policy but isn't able to defend their support of hte policy HONESTLY.

 

[Correll]

The fact that this benefits NATO and every neighbor or Russia by weaking them militarily isn't my motive, it is a side effect.

Yet when I try to get you to explain why you think Ukraine might win in "a year", you just sort of fade away.

But the "Side effect" of weakening russia, that is a real and massive factor. Especially for someone like you how assumes more wars in the future.

You're inventing things because you have nothing to stand on other than desperately trying to avoid admitting that you want to reward Russia for invading.

First of all, I'm not intimidated at all, by your constant use of spin, to try to paint my postition in a negative light.

Second of all, I am completely comfortable discussing my belief that any deal is likely to involve Russia keeping much if not all of the lands they have already taken.

So, when you say stupid shit like that, that I have repeatedly debunked, you are just spamming shit talk. That's not good.

I think that we have a serious, but valid disagreement on policy here. If you were honest about your position, I think we could find the crux of the disagreement and I think that I could respect your position, if you explained it fully.


Oddly, I dont' think that YOU think that. I think that you are ashamed that you are willing to spend the lives of other people in support of real politic goals.

Thus the strawman, inventing motives to attack. Nice try, but it won't work.

You've admitted it is a real thing, ie the weakening of our enemy Russia. THe question of how much that is causing teh support for the war, from US, or Europe is a valid question. And the more you are evasive in the discussion, or the more you do silly shit like shit talk, or use spamming of negs, as a supporting argument, the more you make it look like the real reason.

Your invention motivations for me is almost as feeble as you pretending you're not supporting Russia by wanting to give them Ukrainian land, resources, and children.

And back to just spamming spin.


Why are you afraid to discuss this issue seriously?

 

[eagle1462010]

I'm assuming you would have objected to USA getting involved in Kuwait, Korea, WW1, and WW2?

Assume makes an ass out of you and me.

You Assumed WRONG

 

[Correll]

Assume makes an ass out of you and me.

You Assumed WRONG

Lefties are so... funny..ish.


they think that having a different response to completely different situations, at completely different times, in vastly different places, with completely different people involved,

is a gotcha.


It is absolutely them at their most leftard selves.

 

[eagle1462010]

I'm advocating we support Ukraine's right to decide to fight for their sovereign land against the invading Russias.

The cowards are the Russian apologists in here trying to use the threat of WW3 to support their political views.

Ukraine can fight to the last man, woman and child. That is their choice.

You can send all your money and go die there. That is your choice

Me. I dont want to spend money on ENDLESS WARS ANYMORE.

 

[JWBooth]

I'm assuming you would have objected to USA getting involved in Kuwait, Korea, WW1, and WW2?

Yes, Yes, Yes, and staying out of WW1 would have prevented much of WW2