No Longer David:*The State of Israel As Goliath

[P F Tinmore]

"...When did Israel acquire that land?...Link?"

In the case of Jewish-owned land... the moment that the State of Israel was declared.

In the case of Arab-owned land confiscated by the Jews as spoils of war... the moment that Jewish troops seized it.

All of which the Jews consolidated into the final original configuration of the State of Israel, at the time of the various cessation and armistice of 1949.

I do not believe that a 'link' is required, to document either the declaration of the Israeli Declaration of Statehood and Independence, nor Jewish troops seizing land as spoils in 1948, nor the incorporation of those lands into Israel in 1948-1949.

Unless, of course, you wish to dispute that such things happened.

The legality of such actions may very well be subject to dispute, but their reality is self-evident...

Of course you know that seizing land by force is illegal. I don't see any dispute.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lw89UDZay4M]Erakat caught on tape - YouTube[/ame]

 

[P F Tinmore]

Where lies the international body of law that says a people can declare a state and lawfully take away sovereignty rights of the people with the right of self determination in the land under intl law?

Israel supporters have been dancing around that question for as long as I have been here.

 

[georgephillip]

"His Majesty's government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine..."

Balfour Declaration - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And that has not been done.

What "has not been done"?

"...Prime Minister David Lloyd George of the United Kingdom supported the creation of a Jewish homeland in Palestine because 'it would help secure post-war British control of Palestine, which was strategically important as a buffer to Egypt and the Suez Canal.'.[18]

"In addition, Palestine was to later serve as a terminus for the flow of petroleum from Iraq via Jordan, three former Ottoman Turkish provinces that became British League of Nations mandates in the aftermath of the First World War.

"The oil officially flowed along the Mosul-Haifa oil pipeline from 1935–1948, and unofficially up until 1954."

Prejudice the civil and religiou$ right$ of existing non-Jewi$h communitie$ in Pale$tine?

Balfour Declaration - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[georgephillip]

"His Majesty's government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine..."

Balfour Declaration - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Even Israel's declaration of independence says that Israel was declared in Palestine.

Israel was imposed on Palestine by the force of arms and remains in Palestine by the force of arms.

That is the definition of a military occupation. You can call it a state if you like but it is still an occupation.

You can also recognize the propaganda value that England received from its plans for righting a 2000 year-old wrong in Palestine:

"James Gelvin, a Middle East history professor, cites at least three reasons for why the British government chose to support Zionist aspirations. Issuing the Balfour Declaration would appeal to Woodrow Wilson's two closest advisors, who were avid Zionists.

"'The British did not know quite what to make of President Woodrow Wilson and his conviction (before America's entrance into the war) that the way to end hostilities was for both sides to accept "peace without victory."

"'Two of Wilson's closest advisors, Louis Brandeis and Felix Frankfurter, were avid Zionists.

"'How better to shore up an uncertain ally than by endorsing Zionist aims?

"'The British adopted similar thinking when it came to the Russians, who were in the midst of their revolution. Several of the most prominent revolutionaries, including Leon Trotsky, were of Jewish descent.

"'Why not see if they could be persuaded to keep Russia in the war by appealing to their latent Jewishness and giving them another reason to continue the fight?" ... These include not only those already mentioned but also Britain's desire to attract Jewish financial resources.[14]

"'At that time the British were busy making promises. At a War Cabinet meeting, held on 31 October 1917, Balfour suggested that a declaration favourable to Zionist aspirations would allow Great Britain "to carry on extremely useful propaganda both in Russia and America'"

By 1916, two years into the War to End All War, Wilson's idea of peace without victory was seen as a disaster by bankers on both sides of the Atlantic since without a "loser" to plunder at Versailles the rich parasites who backed both sides of the Great War stood to lose billion$

Jews in the US and Europe did their best to ensure that didn't happen by encouraging American troops to go "over there." Germany was crushed and gave birth to Hitler, and some of the same bankers got rich from that lie too.

Balfour Declaration - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Hollie]

Where lies the international body of law that says a people can declare a state and lawfully take away sovereignty rights of the people with the right of self determination in the land under intl law?

Israel supporters have been dancing around that question for as long as I have been here.

You may wish to email the Ottoman Turks and all of the capos who ran the various islamist caliphates with that question.

 

[Kondor3]

Where lies the international body of law that says a people can declare a state and lawfully take away sovereignty rights of the people with the right of self determination in the land under intl law?

Israel supporters have been dancing around that question for as long as I have been here.

Then allow me to break the mold here...

The following profanity-laced narrative is not directed at you, per se, or anyone here, per se, but is intended as 'theater' - an outsider mimicking an imaginary Israeli hard-ass, as a means to convey a point...

==============================

"OK, you caught us.

No more pussyfooting around... no more dancing around the legal bullshit.

In short...

We already owned part of the land by the time of the Statehood Declaration.

We chose those lands, and others that we dominated through population pressure, and decided to call those ours, in the run-up to Statehood.

We were already residents and under no particular jurisdiction nor government as of the moment of the termination of the Mandate...

We also had no intention of living as Dhimmis under you dickwads again after 1300 years of your shit, and after 6,000,000 of our own had so recently been slaughtered, and when our peoople were crying-out so pathetically for someplace to go, to fort-up and recover from such a horrific slaughter.

So we decided to declare Statehood.

You decided to fight us over that.

So we told you - and anyone who took your side in the matter - to go **** yourselves, and we fought you back for it.

And, despite the fact that your neighbors also came at us in such massive numbers as to almost assure our doom, we actually ended-up holding you off, and, in many areas, even kicking your ass, as rag-tag and ill-equipped and ill-armed as we were.

Suddenly, we had a shot at staying alive, and having a homeland to call our own once again, for the first time in 1900 years.

So, to summarize...

Don't like what happened in 1948-1949?

**** you. Come take it back, if you can.

Want to play the International Law card over all that?

**** you. Come take it back, if you can.

Don't like what happened in 1967 after we kicked your ass again?

**** you. Come and take it back, if you can.

Don't like what happened in 1973, after we kicked your ass again?

**** you. Come and take it back, if you can.

Think you're gonna sucker the rest of the non-Islamic world into taking your side in this?

**** you. Come and take if back, if you can.

Think you're gonna be allowed to out-breed us and take-over through population pressure?

**** you. Come and take it back, if you can.

Don't like the way your lands keep shrinking, until there's hardly anything left at all?

**** you. Come and take if back, if you can.

Wanna play whiney little bitches and cry about how unfair it all is?

**** you. Come and take if back, if you can.

Wanna play the sympathy card when more of your people get hurt than ours, after you attack us?

**** you. Come and take if back, if you can.

Basically... **** you."

=============================

Inspired by 'Goodfellas'... the inspirational part to be found at 0:10 thru 0:22 on the clip...

Perfect gangster motiff... adds a new dimension to the debate, don'tcha think?

All pretenses dropped...

It IS fun bein' top-dog, ain't it?

 

[P F Tinmore]

Where lies the international body of law that says a people can declare a state and lawfully take away sovereignty rights of the people with the right of self determination in the land under intl law?

Israel supporters have been dancing around that question for as long as I have been here.

Then allow me to break the mold here...

The following profanity-laced narrative is not directed at you, per se, or anyone here, per se, but is intended as 'theater' - an outsider mimicking an imaginary Israeli hard-ass, as a means to convey a point...

==============================

"OK, you caught us.

No more pussyfooting around... no more dancing around the legal bullshit.

In short...

We already owned part of the land by the time of the Statehood Declaration.

We chose those lands, and others that we dominated through population pressure, and decided to call those ours, in the run-up to Statehood.

We were already residents and under no particular jurisdiction nor government as of the moment of the termination of the Mandate...

We also had no intention of living as Dhimmis under you dickwads again after 1300 years of your shit, and after 6,000,000 of our own had so recently been slaughtered, and when our peoople were crying-out so pathetically for someplace to go, to fort-up and recover from such a horrific slaughter.

So we decided to declare Statehood.

You decided to fight us over that.

So we told you - and anyone who took your side in the matter - to go **** yourselves, and we fought you back for it.

And, despite the fact that your neighbors also came at us in such massive numbers as to almost assure our doom, we actually ended-up holding you off, and, in many areas, even kicking your ass, as rag-tag and ill-equipped and ill-armed as we were.

Suddenly, we had a shot at staying alive, and having a homeland to call our own once again, for the first time in 1900 years.

So, to summarize...

Don't like what happened in 1948-1949?

**** you. Come take it back, if you can.

Want to play the International Law card over all that?

**** you. Come take it back, if you can.

Don't like what happened in 1967 after we kicked your ass again?

**** you. Come and take it back, if you can.

Don't like what happened in 1973, after we kicked your ass again?

**** you. Come and take it back, if you can.

Think you're gonna sucker the rest of the non-Islamic world into taking your side in this?

**** you. Come and take if back, if you can.

Think you're gonna be allowed to out-breed us and take-over through population pressure?

**** you. Come and take it back, if you can.

Don't like the way your lands keep shrinking, until there's hardly anything left at all?

**** you. Come and take if back, if you can.

Wanna play whiney little bitches and cry about how unfair it all is?

**** you. Come and take if back, if you can.

Wanna play the sympathy card when more of your people get hurt than ours, after you attack us?

**** you. Come and take if back, if you can.

Basically... **** you."

=============================

Inspired by 'Goodfellas'... the inspirational part to be found at 0:10 thru 0:22 on the clip...

Perfect gangster motiff... adds a new dimension to the debate, don'tcha think?

All pretenses dropped...

It IS fun bein' top-dog, ain't it?

In other words, Israel just illegally took the land by military force.

I think that will catch up to them at some point in time.

 

[Kondor3]

"...In other words, Israel just illegally took the land by military force. I think that will catch up to them at some point in time."

If it DOES catch up to them, Tinny, by the time it does, 'Palestinians' will have long-since faded from memory and melted into the populations of Jordan and Lebanon - far too late to do them any good.

 

[P F Tinmore]

"...In other words, Israel just illegally took the land by military force. I think that will catch up to them at some point in time."

If it DOES catch up to them, Tinny, by the time it does, 'Palestinians' will have long-since faded from memory and melted into the populations of Jordan and Lebanon - far too late to do them any good.

"The old will die and the young will forget."

How is that working out for you?

 

[Kondor3]

"...In other words, Israel just illegally took the land by military force. I think that will catch up to them at some point in time."

If it DOES catch up to them, Tinny, by the time it does, 'Palestinians' will have long-since faded from memory and melted into the populations of Jordan and Lebanon - far too late to do them any good.

"The old will die and the young will forget."

How is that working out for you?

It isn't working one way or another for me, Tinny, because I'm not a stakeholder.

But the whole paradigm changes, once the Palestinians are across the border and living in Jordan and Lebanon, and Israeli settlers swoop into the vacuum to complete the consolidation.

When that happens, the Palestinians begin melting into the surrounding countryside, across the border.

Once they're safely relocated, and settled-in, and sustaining themselves, the world will forget about them at the speed of light.

Happily.

 

[P F Tinmore]

If it DOES catch up to them, Tinny, by the time it does, 'Palestinians' will have long-since faded from memory and melted into the populations of Jordan and Lebanon - far too late to do them any good.

"The old will die and the young will forget."

How is that working out for you?

It isn't working one way or another for me, Tinny, because I'm not a stakeholder.

But the whole paradigm changes, once the Palestinians are across the border and living in Jordan and Lebanon, and Israeli settlers swoop into the vacuum to complete the consolidation.

When that happens, the Palestinians begin melting into the surrounding countryside, across the border.

Once they're safely relocated, and settled-in, and sustaining themselves, the world will forget about them at the speed of light.

Happily.

On the contrary, Palestinians living out from under Israel's boot have more freedom to support Palestine.

 

[Kondor3]

"...On the contrary, Palestinians living out from under Israel's boot have more freedom to support Palestine."

And when the West Bank and Gaza have been cleared, and ALL of them are 'out from under'?

 

[SherriMunnerlyn]

"...On the contrary, Palestinians living out from under Israel's boot have more freedom to support Palestine."

And when the West Bank and Gaza have been cleared, and ALL of them are 'out from under'?

It shall never happen.

Occupations in Palestine always fail, history teaches us that.

And one more time, Palestinians again exceed the number of foreign occupier Zionist Jews in number in Palestine.

It is a beautiful time to live, we get to watch Zionism fall!

 

[Sally]

"...On the contrary, Palestinians living out from under Israel's boot have more freedom to support Palestine."

And when the West Bank and Gaza have been cleared, and ALL of them are 'out from under'?

It shall never happen.

Occupations in Palestine always fail, history teaches us that.

And one more time, Palestinians again exceed the number of foreign occupier Zionist Jews in number in Palestine.

It is a beautiful time to live, we get to watch Zionism fall!

I think most civilized people would think it a beautiful time to live if Muslims become tolerant of other religions. You are fixated for some reason on one tiny spot on this planet while yout friends are operating in many larger spots killing innocent people because of their religious beliefs. These deaths don't seem to faze you, even when Christians are killed.

 

[P F Tinmore]

"...On the contrary, Palestinians living out from under Israel's boot have more freedom to support Palestine."

And when the West Bank and Gaza have been cleared, and ALL of them are 'out from under'?

They will just add to the ranks. Those ranks have grown considerably in the last 10 to 15 years.

Ali Abunima, Ramzy Baroud, Nadia Hijab, Huwaida Arraf, Noura Erekat, Ghada Karmi, Laila El Haddad, Rafeef Zaida, Diana Buttu, and others are all second and third generation refugees.

 

[SherriMunnerlyn]

And when the West Bank and Gaza have been cleared, and ALL of them are 'out from under'?

It shall never happen.

Occupations in Palestine always fail, history teaches us that.

And one more time, Palestinians again exceed the number of foreign occupier Zionist Jews in number in Palestine.

It is a beautiful time to live, we get to watch Zionism fall!

I think most civilized people would think it a beautiful time to live if Muslims become tolerant of other religions. You are fixated for some reason on one tiny spot on this planet while yout friends are operating in many larger spots killing innocent people because of their religious beliefs. These deaths don't seem to faze you, even when Christians are killed.

I simply enjoy seeing Injustices like Apartheid and Occupations cease.

People with a conscience like such things as that.

 

[Kondor3]

"...On the contrary, Palestinians living out from under Israel's boot have more freedom to support Palestine."

And when the West Bank and Gaza have been cleared, and ALL of them are 'out from under'?

They will just add to the ranks. Those ranks have grown considerably in the last 10 to 15 years.

Ali Abunima, Ramzy Baroud, Nadia Hijab, Huwaida Arraf, Noura Erekat, Ghada Karmi, Laila El Haddad, Rafeef Zaida, Diana Buttu, and others are all second and third generation refugees.

Frankly, Tinny, once the Arab-Palestinians are all safely relocated and doing well, they won't have much appetite for continuing this insanity.

And, if by some chance, they do, then Israel will then be responding to aggression from across the borders of another country - conventional warfare - rather than dealing with the population of various occupied scraps.

The Rules of Engagement are different, and will work to Israel's favor.

 

[Kondor3]

"...It shall never happen..."

It's already underway... hectare by hectare, acre by acre, block by block, settlement by settlement, village by village... as evidenced by your own propaganda maps.

And there isn't a thing you can do that is going to stop it, as the pace accelerates, and what is left of Rump Palestine continues to evaporate.

 

[SherriMunnerlyn]

Over 6 million Palestinians still live in Palestine, they are not going anywhere, only growing in number!

 

[Kondor3]

Over 6 million Palestinians still live in Palestine, they are not going anywhere, only growing in number!

It's an easy enough matter to push them off the land, when the Israelis tire of playing this game. The Israelis have the muscle to do it. You lack the muscle to stop them.