New study tells us what we already knew

[Rigby5]

No the middle class does not. The rich pay nearly all taxes.

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The top 1% pay nearly 40% of all taxes. And the top 25% pay nearly 90% of all taxes.

The middle class barely pays hardly any taxes. And the bottom 50% pays almost none.

Wrong.
First of all, your graph is useless because it included homeless, mothers, children, etc. who traditionally never worked and should not be included in the graph at all.
Second is that the wealthy elite actually produce nothing, and it is really their employees and customers who pay all their taxes for them.

 

[Couchpotato]

While it is true the poor pay little if any taxes, it is also true the wealthy tend to pay less tax % than the middle class.
There are so many exemptions and loopholes for the very wealthy, it would be foolish for them to pay more than the 20% capital gains rate.
While the middle class usually pays more than 20%.

The problem here is you are comparing 2 different sets of revenue which are taxed differently. Capital gains is taxed at a lower rate to incentivize investment which is good for the economy, and thus wage earners. We can have a discussion about whether the CG tax is too high or low but it's not treated the same as the income tax for a reason.

1, Wages

2, Investment earnings

 

[Couchpotato]

Wrong.
First of all, your graph is useless because it included homeless, mothers, children, etc. who traditionally never worked and should not be included in the graph at all.
Second is that the wealthy elite actually produce nothing, and it is really their employees and customers who pay all their taxes for them.

Without the "wealthy elite" business owners the employees wouldnt produce anything and why arent you taking it the next logical step that the employees arent actually paying the tax revenue it's the consumer.... We can play this silly game all day.

 

[Rigby5]

Depends. Taxation is not theft.

Taxation is not theft when it is beneficial, like for public schools, transportation, defense, etc.
But taxation can be theft and is when it is to invade Iraq to raise TX oil profits.

 

[Mac-7]

Wrong.
First of all, your graph is useless because it included homeless, mothers, children, etc. who traditionally never worked and should not be included in the graph at all.
Second is that the wealthy elite actually produce nothing, and it is really their employees and customers who pay all their taxes for them.

Employees cannot produce anything until a capitalist invests money to create a job for them

Our society needs both

The leftwing inspired class warfare is harmful for both sides

 

[Rigby5]

The problem here is you are comparing 2 different sets of revenue which are taxed differently. Capital gains is taxed at a lower rate to incentivize investment which is good for the economy, and thus wage earners. We can have a discussion about whether the CG tax is too high or low but it's not treated the same as the income tax for a reason.

1, Wages

2, Investment earnings

The point is that wealthy people can easily and do pay lower tax %'s than the working middle class that does not have the same advantages.
Any wealthy person can have their corporation pay them in stock options instead of a cash salary, so that they can pay the lower capital gains rate in what essentially is legal fraud.
Any wealthy person can invest in rental property so they get the huge depreciation tax exemption.

 

[Rigby5]

Without the "wealthy elite" business owners the employees wouldnt produce anything and why arent you taking it the next logical step that the employees arent actually paying the tax revenue it's the consumer.... We can play this silly game all day.

Wrong.
If we had more socialism, then society could collectively come up with the necessary investment capital to build the means of production we all need and want.
So then there would be no need for the wealthy elite to leech off of society any more.
It does not make a difference if it is the workers or customers who are actually paying, the point is the wealthy elite are not, and are just leeching off the rest of us by pretending their capital is so valuable.

 

[Rigby5]

Employees cannot produce anything until a capitalist invests money to create a job for them

Our society needs both

The leftwing inspired class warfare is harmful for both sides

Wrong.
The private capitalist only invest in what they want to make the most money for them, not what is best for society.
That is why the rest of the world has high speed rail and we don't.
That is why the rest of the world has public health care and we don't.
That is why the rest of the world does not start wars, and we do.

The leftwing inspired class warfare is wonderful because it leads to much more efficient socialism that we desperately need as we are running out of resources like fossil fuel.

 

[Andylusion]

A guy who works for a living and earns $100 pays $7.50 for Medicare and SS.
A guy who is a capitalist earns $100 and pays exactly zero for SS and Medicare.

Off the top the capitalist gets a 7.5% tax break.
FOR NOT WORKING

Risk you say?
Guy works 2 weeks at a restaurant then waits a week to finally be paid.
Same guy buys lunch at work and pays out of pocket
Employer takes 2 weeks of labor, gets paid for 10 meals and puts out nothing.

Risk you say?

More like $12.40. The other $7.20 is taken out before the employee earns it. The employee is paid less, to cover the taxes.

As for the Capitalist, he pays the full 12.4% tax on his covered earning. There is no tax break.

Further, the capitalist is working. CEOs and business owners work 70 to 90 hours a week on average.

As for risk, the average fast food joint costs $2.2 million to build or buy. The business owner has millions invested into the business, and if the business fails the owner has usually lost most of the money invested, and end up million in debt.

The employee loses nothing, ends up with no debt, and just gets another job.
And that doesn't include the fact the employee owns no responsibility.

The owner is the one who gets called if there is a problem. I remember when the Wendy's I worked at, got hit by a truck, and damaged the roof. They didn't call me up at 21 years old, and ask me to contact the insurance company at 11:30 PM at night. The store owner was the own out there in the rain, working with the insurance adjuster.

 

[Mac-7]

The private capitalist only invest in what they want to make the most money for them, not what is best for society.

Its interesting to note that the two so often are the same thing

We have a very comfortable economy thanks to capitalist greed that ends up benefiting everyone

 

[Mac-7]

That is why the rest of the world has high speed rail and we don't.

Losing money for the sake of lib ego building is not good economic policy

We already have empty rail cars running all over America that are loss leaders

 

[Couchpotato]

Wrong.
If we had more socialism, then society could collectively come up with the necessary investment capital to build the means of production we all need and want.
So then there would be no need for the wealthy elite to leech off of society any more.
It does not make a difference if it is the workers or customers who are actually paying, the point is the wealthy elite are not, and are just leeching off the rest of us by pretending their capital is so valuable.

What's stopping workers from creating these companies and having all employees share all the profits right now? What about our current system keeps them from doing that? Since they are the ones doing all the work and the elite business owner is just there to collect the bags of cash....

 

[Couchpotato]

The point is that wealthy people can easily and do pay lower tax %'s than the working middle class that does not have the same advantages.
Any wealthy person can have their corporation pay them in stock options instead of a cash salary, so that they can pay the lower capital gains rate in what essentially is legal fraud.
Any wealthy person can invest in rental property so they get the huge depreciation tax exemption.

You are completely discounting the risk involved that the investor is taking. What happens if all these rich people just take their cash and stuff their mattresses with it? Where will the wage earners and people who need capital to create new businesses, be? How about the people looking to rent?

 

[Andylusion]

Wrong.
If we had more socialism, then society could collectively come up with the necessary investment capital to build the means of production we all need and want.
So then there would be no need for the wealthy elite to leech off of society any more.
It does not make a difference if it is the workers or customers who are actually paying, the point is the wealthy elite are not, and are just leeching off the rest of us by pretending their capital is so valuable.

If you actually believe that, then how do you explain the fact that your plan has never worked in all human history?

Why has every country that has adopted socialist ideals, and chased out the rich, ended up in ruins? Why were not one of them magically able to find the necessary investment capital?

I'll tell you why. Because no one is going to use their capital to invest, if there is no return on investment. And if you allow a return on investment, then some people will become rich again.

 

[Andylusion]

Wrong.
The private capitalist only invest in what they want to make the most money for them, not what is best for society.
That is why the rest of the world has high speed rail and we don't.
That is why the rest of the world has public health care and we don't.
That is why the rest of the world does not start wars, and we do.

The leftwing inspired class warfare is wonderful because it leads to much more efficient socialism that we desperately need as we are running out of resources like fossil fuel.

No, none of that. Do you want to lose half your income in taxes? No? Me neither. We don't want public health care.

High speed rail sucks. That's why we don't have it.

So Russia didn't start a war? The only reason there have not been more wars, is because we have prevented them. Remember when Hugo Chavez sent tanks to the border with Columbia, and we randomly had a "drug task force training exercise" with Columbia?

Then oddly Chavez pulled his tanks back.

We are have been a stabilizing force in the world.

 

[Andylusion]

Wrong.
Taxation is what we all want and vote for, like defense, safety, fire fighting, utilities, public schools, transportation systems, etc.
These things benefit us all and are well worth the investment.

Actually no on public schools. Public schools are way over priced, and absolutely terrible. They are making stupid kids that can't function productively in society.

So, no. We should be cutting public schools completely. Students that are home schooled come out smarter, and cost the public almost nothing.

If you add in the cost of all those things you listed combined, would barely be over a trillion dollars. The government at all levels are spending $8 to $9 Trillion.

 

[Andylusion]

Wrong.
First of all, your graph is useless because it included homeless, mothers, children, etc. who traditionally never worked and should not be included in the graph at all.
Second is that the wealthy elite actually produce nothing, and it is really their employees and customers who pay all their taxes for them.

The graph is fine, and accurate, and valid.

You have the right to be wrong, if you are bound and determined to be ignorant.

If you think that the wealthy don't produce anything, then you have never run a business before in your entire life. And you are lying if you claim otherwise. Because anyone who has run a business knows it's like chewing glass, and staring into a black hole.

 

[Andylusion]

Taxation is not theft when it is beneficial, like for public schools, transportation, defense, etc.
But taxation can be theft and is when it is to invade Iraq to raise TX oil profits.

That is the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

So in your stupid world, everything you think like, that's not theft, but if you don't like it, it's magically theft.

Based on what?
What if I like invading Iraq, and raising oil profits, and hate all your dumb crap? So now every thing I hate is theft, and everything I like is not theft.

We cancel each other out. Discussion over. Get off the internet. You'll never be relevant again, because it's just your opinion verses mine, and I cancel you out. Now go away.

Sigh..... are there any adults on here? I'm looking for adults to talk to. Are there any left?

 

[John Edgar Slow Horses]

Ok but that's not what's being discussed here so that seems rather irrelevant.

It rebuts the theme "the poor don't pay taxes," because they certainly do.

I think anyone with an AGI less than $100,000 should not pay federal or state income taxes.

 

[HikerGuy83]

Not saying this is the case now, but sometimes an argument can be made that cutting taxes can stimulate new production that result in higher tax revenue.

That was Trump's claim.

Do you know how much he increased the debt. He was never close to being in the black.