Native English Speakers

[Meathead]

That nonsense post didn't even respond to the quote.

It did when you cease believing the lie that English is the native language spoken in North America. It isn't. It's the language spoken by the invaders who conquered North America.

Certainly not "the" language spoken by invaders. They also spoke Dutch, French, Spanish and even Russian.

Stop being such an apologist. It's not that impressive!

 

[longknife]

There are many (many!) benefits to learning a second language, but as a practical matter, is there as much reason for a native speaker of English in this day and age to learn another language(s) as there is for non-native speakers to learn English? Should we reassign the time used in schools today on mediocre foreign language instruction to further bolster math and science skills instead? Just for the sake of argument...

Yes!

It is a great way to improve your English skills!

I thought I spoke fairly good English - until I attended the Defense Language Institute to study German. In that six month period, I learned more about the history and basics of English than I had in school.

And, as I've become fluent in Spanish, many of its roots are now clear to me and how similar words have entered the English vocabulary.

In addition, learning additional languages hones one's intellectual skills as well as broadening horizons.

 

[Unkotare]

There are many (many!) benefits to learning a second language, but as a practical matter, is there as much reason for a native speaker of English in this day and age to learn another language(s) as there is for non-native speakers to learn English? Should we reassign the time used in schools today on mediocre foreign language instruction to further bolster math and science skills instead? Just for the sake of argument...

Yes!

It is a great way to improve your English skills!

I thought I spoke fairly good English - until I attended the Defense Language Institute to study German. In that six month period, I learned more about the history and basics of English than I had in school.

And, as I've become fluent in Spanish, many of its roots are now clear to me and how similar words have entered the English vocabulary.

In addition, learning additional languages hones one's intellectual skills as well as broadening horizons.

But, is it of more practical value than increased instruction in math and science?

 

[longknife]

[QUOTE="Unkotare, post: 9723727, member: 31918"


But, is it of more practical value than increased instruction in math and science?[/QUOTE]

What good is an extensive background in Math and Science when you cannot clearly and succinctly express your knowledge?

 

[Unkotare]

[QUOTE="Unkotare, post: 9723727, member: 31918"


But, is it of more practical value than increased instruction in math and science?

What good is an extensive background in Math and Science when you cannot clearly and succinctly express your knowledge?[/QUOTE]


That was a bit indirect. Are you saying it IS of more practical value then?

 

[ricechickie]

This is an ancient debate. What kind of education makes a person a well-rounded individual?

And, does everyone benefit from focus on the same subjects?

 

[Vikrant]

What good is an extensive background in Math and Science when you cannot clearly and succinctly express your knowledge?

That was a bit indirect. Are you saying it IS of more practical value then?

There are two issues that got mixed here.

1) Is language itself of less value than pure science?
2) Is learning a second (besides your native language) language as useful as learning pure science ?

Let us address item number one first. To put it bluntly, language is science. Invention of language was a major breakthrough in human civilization. Without it, no human advancement would have been possible.

As far as item number two is concerned: study of a second language can be just as important as study of pure science. A civilization needs to reach out to other civilizations and in the process you have to learn each other's language. This promotes better inter-civilization understanding which is vital for trade and commerce. On the intra-civilization level, however, lack of advancement in pure science will be disastrous.

To sum it up, you need some people to study languages and you need some people to study pure science. It takes both to get a civilization going.

 

[Unkotare]

To put it bluntly, language is science. Invention of language was a major breakthrough in human civilization. Without it, no human advancement would have been possible.

...

Language wasn't "invented" as the term is generally understood. Human communication became more complex as human beings themselves and the groups in which they lived (and hence the needs of communication) grew more complex over time.

 

[Vikrant]

Language wasn't "invented" as the term is generally understood. Human communication became more complex as human beings themselves and the groups in which they lived (and hence the needs of communication) grew more complex over time.

You are absolutely correct and I should have used the word developed instead of invented. Even in order to learn the grammar itself, you already have to understand the language first. Children experience this while growing up and learning to speak a language by recognizing a pattern.

Development of language with complex grammar was not that common in the human history. As a matter of fact, if we count the roots of all the languages that we speak today, the count probably would be less than half a dozen. When you are talking about a language with generative grammar, you are talking about significant invention. It is not a mean feat even by the modern standards. That is why there has been only one language in the history of mankind which conforms to generative grammar and that language is Sanskrit.

 

[Old Rocks]

There are many (many!) benefits to learning a second language, but as a practical matter, is there as much reason for a native speaker of English in this day and age to learn another language(s) as there is for non-native speakers to learn English? Should we reassign the time used in schools today on mediocre foreign language instruction to further bolster math and science skills instead? Just for the sake of argument...

We live in a global community. Where I work, we make steel from slabs from the Ukraine, Russia, Mexico, Brazil, and China. We roll the steel and treat it, and send the finished plates, tubes, and pipe to almost every country in the world. Without salesmen that understand not only the language, but also the culture, we lose business. To remain competative in the world market we need multi-lingual people.

 

[Iceweasel]

We live in a global community. Where I work, we make steel from slabs from the Ukraine, Russia, Mexico, Brazil, and China. We roll the steel and treat it, and send the finished plates, tubes, and pipe to almost every country in the world. Without salesmen that understand not only the language, but also the culture, we lose business. To remain competative in the world market we need multi-lingual people.

I'm going to hazard a guess and say many of those salespeople learned English as a second language.

 

[Meathead]

Let's make this simple. While speaking foreign languages certainly has advantages, speakers of English can travel and conduct business globally. The same can only be said regionally of other languages.

 

[EverCurious]

Allegedly from Mark Twain:

For example, in Year 1 that useless letter c would be dropped to be replased either by k or s, and likewise x would no longer be part of the alphabet. The only kase in which c would be retained would be the ch formation, which will be dealt with later.

Year 2 might reform w spelling, so that which and one would take the same konsonant, wile Year 3 might well abolish y replasing it with i and Iear 4 might fiks the g/j anomali wonse and for all.

Jenerally, then, the improvement would kontinue iear bai iear with Iear 5 doing awai with useless double konsonants, and Iears 6-12 or so modifaiing vowlz and the rimeining voist and unvoist konsonants.

Bai Iear 15 or sou, it wud fainali bi posibl tu meik ius ov thi ridandant letez c, yand x — bai now jast a memori in the maindz ov ould doderez — tu riplais ch,sh, and th rispektivli.

Fainali, xen, aafte sam 20 iers ov orxogrefkl riform, wi wud hev a lojikl, kohirnt speling in ius xrewawt xe Ingliy-spiking werld.

Sooo.... basically he predicted texting. Awesome!


In any event, as an avid writer and reader, I am quite fond of our English or whatever you wish to call it (Engrish is the one I hear most often.) That said, I have attempted to teach myself French, German, and Spanish, unfortunately without having regular contact with anyone who speaks any of those languages plus English, I've been both unable to understand the nuances, and find I'm unable to retain it. Unfortunately they don't have any 'open' classes for them in my area that I am aware of.

...Anyone here interested in teaching me the nuances of French, German, or Spanish? I'm a quick learner

 

[longknife]

...Anyone here interested in teaching me the nuances of French, German, or Spanish? I'm a quick learner

I would't be so arrogant as to try to teach a foreign language to anyone.

However, as one who has learned a couple, let me give you this bit of advice - listen to the music of the language you want to learn. Hear the rhythm as it will establish patterns you need to understand.

Then, listen to or watch radio/television shows in that language using subtitles. Or even closed captioning. For both German and Spanish, you will be amazed at how many words are similar to English - although spelled differently.

Good luck.

[And, what do you write?]

 

[EverCurious]

I would't be so arrogant as to try to teach a foreign language to anyone.

However, as one who has learned a couple, let me give you this bit of advice - listen to the music of the language you want to learn. Hear the rhythm as it will establish patterns you need to understand.

Then, listen to or watch radio/television shows in that language using subtitles. Or even closed captioning. For both German and Spanish, you will be amazed at how many words are similar to English - although spelled differently.

Good luck.

[And, what do you write?]

ooo Thank you, what a perfect idea! Now how come I didn't think of that, I'm a stupid brainiac ...I don't think we have anything but one Spanish channel, but I'm sure the internet will come to my rescue.

I write a bit of everything, but mostly fantasy; usually about Elves and their ruthless political intrigues, though I've got a feudal fantasy setting that revolves around human slavery that I've been writing off and on for a couple years. I'm also half-ass working on an entire fantasy world that everyone wants me to attempt to publish, but for now I'm content to just write short stories on the plane trips and days off to appease my little fan club's avid hunger heh

 

[feduptaxpayer]

The immigrants should be made to study English. For native-speaker of English the, study of other languages should be optional.

(X)Indeed, why should the host people of any country pay for others to learn the language of their adopted country? If one wants to immigrate to another country then learn their language, don't make the taxpayers of that country pay for it, like they do in Canada. Canada blows millions to teach others to learn and speak english. The rule should be that if any person wants to immigrate to America or Canada they should know english first. This should save the taxpayers of both countries a lot of money and where that money could go towards other needs in those countries. And thanks to multiculturalism, learning the hosts language is not deemed to be important anymore. We must now cater too their language and customs. Multiculturalism does not unite, it divides. Wakeup.

That post was not at all well thought-out.

(X)It looked pretty good to me. So, where did I go wrong?

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

The immigrants should be made to study English. For native-speaker of English the, study of other languages should be optional.

Obviously you're unaware of the idiocy of this.


What constitutes 'should be made,' a law – where if they fail to 'study English' they'll be subject to criminal prosecution.


What would be the penalty for 'failing to study English,' will they be imprisoned, deported.


And how will this 'law' be enforced – if an immigrant fails to attend 'English school,' will the police be contacted to hunt down this dangerous criminal suspect, or will it be DHS, or ICE...


Your stupidity and hate have clearly disabled your ability to reason and employ common sense. You conservatives also love to make more laws, give more power and authority to the government, while at the same time disparaging the right to due process inherent in the enforcement of all laws.

 

[Unkotare]

The immigrants should be made to study English. For native-speaker of English the, study of other languages should be optional.

(X)Indeed, why should the host people of any country pay for others to learn the language of their adopted country? If one wants to immigrate to another country then learn their language, don't make the taxpayers of that country pay for it, like they do in Canada. Canada blows millions to teach others to learn and speak english. The rule should be that if any person wants to immigrate to America or Canada they should know english first. This should save the taxpayers of both countries a lot of money and where that money could go towards other needs in those countries. And thanks to multiculturalism, learning the hosts language is not deemed to be important anymore. We must now cater too their language and customs. Multiculturalism does not unite, it divides. Wakeup.

That post was not at all well thought-out.

(X)It looked pretty good to me. So, where did I go wrong?

Countries spend money on things in their own national interests. Having those people in the country understand English better is in the interests of the United States (I couldn't care less about Canada). Those who need to learn or improve their English are not always illegal aliens, of course. They can and often do include legal residents, native-born US citizens, and school-aged children. Learning English is still "deemed to be important" to those immigrating here legally. Making it even more difficult to immigrate here legally than it already is would discourage the kind of immigration we want and encourage more of the kind we don't want.

 

[Meathead]

The immigrants should be made to study English. For native-speaker of English the, study of other languages should be optional.

Obviously you're unaware of the idiocy of this.


What constitutes 'should be made,' a law – where if they fail to 'study English' they'll be subject to criminal prosecution.


What would be the penalty for 'failing to study English,' will they be imprisoned, deported.


And how will this 'law' be enforced – if an immigrant fails to attend 'English school,' will the police be contacted to hunt down this dangerous criminal suspect, or will it be DHS, or ICE...


Your stupidity and hate have clearly disabled your ability to reason and employ common sense. You conservatives also love to make more laws, give more power and authority to the government, while at the same time disparaging the right to due process inherent in the enforcement of all laws.

Your idiotic scenarios aside, in the Czech Republic and Greece, the countries I know best, children whose language skills are deficient are sent to lower grades where the curriculum is easier followed until their language skills reach levels allowing them to attend age-appropriate classes. There are other special schools where slow learners attend, some whites and a lot of Gypsies (Roma). Such schools would certainly have a distinct minority demographic in the US.

Liberals love to point to Europe for death penalty and gun control, but always ignore things like the above and voter ID.

 

[Pogo]

If we are looking at English as an official international language then the approach is flawed. English is not a very scientific language. For starters, it lacks consistency when it comes to describing sound. It heavily relies on context which leads to ambiguity. It will be tragic for humanity if English emerges as an official international language. However, it is at the moment a very practical and useful language skill to possess.

English is the worst language. The spelling is arbitrary and chosen by 18th century Anglican nerds who worshipped the Norman French aristocracy and so they wanted to retain the root spellings so that one could see which words came from the crude Germanic English vrs which came from the sophisticated French of the Norman ancestry.

Every other language based their spelling on the phonetic sound of the spoken word.

So we get to have words like trough, dough, tough, thought, fought, cough, and though.

Retards.

Wrong. English spelling, like any other language, reflected how the word sounded at the time it first got writ. It's the spoken language that changes over time. That's why the word knight is spelled as it is -- all of those lettters were part of the pronunciation. Including the K and the GH.

Who da retard now, beeeyatch?