N. Korea fires on S. Korea - It was a clear provocation!!

[daveman]

But not simple enough to believe Ronald Reagan was anything except a corn-fed coward, unwilling to put his life on the line for this country in World War II.

Sounds like your kinda guy.

Slave,

Cowardice? No. Nearsightedness.

If you want to talk about cowardice, let's talk about your less-than-a-hundred-hours military career.

Chickenshit.

Tunnel vision.
Keeping his eyes firmly on the money.
The $3000 a week he earned for making war movies.

Fuck you and the Gipper.

Tough talk from a guy who went home crying to mommy.

As always, George, you're wrong. Reagan did what he could given his physical limitations. And it was far more than what you accomplished in the military.

 

[Cain]

I have a question, what is the thing about military service in question of georgephillip? I am newer here, and I do not understand what the thing about it is? I am going to be heading to BMT at the end of my last year in school, and am curious about the basic training argument?

 

[georgephillip]

I have a question, what is the thing about military service in question of georgephillip? I am newer here, and I do not understand what the thing about it is? I am going to be heading to BMT at the end of my last year in school, and am curious about the basic training argument?

Cain:

BMT?

Basic Military Training?

I'm not really clear on today's terminology; however in March of 1966 I enlisted in the USAF and spent ten of the longest days of my life in Texas. At the time I believed the US invasion of South Vietnam was in the best interest of "freedom" and even planned on volunteering to serve there after completing basic training at Lackland AFB.

Like many others I got homesick, but unlike most others I had an abnormal curvature to my spine that might make me eligible for a medical discharge.

It "worked" and while I'm glad I didn't actively support the murders of 2-3 million Vietnamese by the US military, there were also some unintended consequences. For example, 27 years later when I was 45 and my mother died I was still living under her roof.

Had I cut the umbilical in '66 that probably would not have been the case.

Frankly, I think if I could do it all over I would have refused induction and done my time in Federal prison.

That way I could have cut my ties to home without enabling the killing of innocent human beings.

Not sure if this has answered any of your questions.
I am sure the biggest difference between my time and yours is the communication instrument we're using today.

 

[georgephillip]

Oh, yeah, you're one of those morons who thinks America is worse than any Communist nation.

Say, how about you take an honest look at the conditions of the average North Korean and the average South Korean and tell me who's better off. Look at this photo, apply a little rational thought to it, and see what it tells you:

Taking an honest look at average conditions in North Korea is easier to envision if you imagine all the points of South Korean light in the photo magically migrating north of the 38th parallel.

That would give an honest observer a reasonable approximation of the saturation bombing campaign conducted by the USAF during its "first war" in Korea.

By US admission we first turned every North Korean city and village into rubble and then came back and turned the rubble into pebbles. Curtis LeMay estimated we killed 20% of all human beings in North Korea.

Today the figure is widely believed to be one out of three North Koreans perished from US bombs. (I'm sure the profit margin on each bomb is only a happy capitalist coincidence, aren't you?)

.

Dude, it's been like 60 years. Why do you think they haven't rebuilt or developed?

Hint:it has something to do with batshit insane dictators

Bat-shit insanity and dictators play big roles; however, I'm not using metaphor when I say US airpower reduced North Korea to something close to stone age existence.

Imagine if some interstellar terrorists "liberate" California by killing one out of every three Americans in 2011?

Imagine they "bomb" every US city and town into rubble and then come back and pound the rubble into pebbles.

Imagine they hang out in Malibu for the next 60 years...

If there's one word we are not paying close enough attention to in this discussion of Korea, I nominate "reunification."

My second nominee would be "profits" as in the 2 - 6 trillion dollars worth of minerals locked away inside North Korea.

 

[georgephillip]

From Antiwar.com:

"Initial reports were unequivocal: those crazy North Koreans had once again broken the longstanding ceasefire and attacked the South, this time at Yeonpyeong Island, shelling civilian quarters, and killing two South Korean marines.

"A few hours later, however, a more nuanced story came out: it seems the South Koreans were conducting military 'exercises' near the disputed island, which North Korea claims as its territory, and South Korean ships had opened fire, albeit – they claim – not in the direction of the North Korean mainland.

"The North Koreans responded by taking it up a few notches, as is their wont, and opening fire on Yeonpyeong."

What were these "exercises" attempting to simulate?

"...the military exercises, code-named 'Hoguk,' involving all four branches of the South Korean armed forces and some 70,000 troops, simulated an attack on North Korea, and were meant to provoke the North Koreans, who responded as might be expected.

"US troops were supposed to have participated in the exercises, but apparently the Americans thought better of it and pulled back at the last moment – perhaps because they knew a provocation was in the making."

Korean Conundrum

Does anyone know the English translation for "Hoguk?"

What's "provocation" in Korean?

 

[Jeremy]

도발

 

[daveman]

I have a question, what is the thing about military service in question of georgephillip? I am newer here, and I do not understand what the thing about it is? I am going to be heading to BMT at the end of my last year in school, and am curious about the basic training argument?

Cain:

BMT?

Basic Military Training?

I'm not really clear on today's terminology; however in March of 1966 I enlisted in the USAF and spent ten of the longest days of my life in Texas. At the time I believed the US invasion of South Vietnam was in the best interest of "freedom" and even planned on volunteering to serve there after completing basic training at Lackland AFB.

Like many others I got homesick, but unlike most others I had an abnormal curvature to my spine that might make me eligible for a medical discharge.

It "worked" and while I'm glad I didn't actively support the murders of 2-3 million Vietnamese by the US military, there were also some unintended consequences. For example, 27 years later when I was 45 and my mother died I was still living under her roof.

Had I cut the umbilical in '66 that probably would not have been the case.

Frankly, I think if I could do it all over I would have refused induction and done my time in Federal prison.

That way I could have cut my ties to home without enabling the killing of innocent human beings.

Not sure if this has answered any of your questions.
I am sure the biggest difference between my time and yours is the communication instrument we're using today.

Your scoliosis should have been weeded out at the MEPS station.

Plus, you didn't mention it to me before.

 

[daveman]

Bat-shit insanity and dictators play big roles; however, I'm not using metaphor when I say US airpower reduced North Korea to something close to stone age existence.

Imagine if some interstellar terrorists "liberate" California by killing one out of every three Americans in 2011?

Imagine they "bomb" every US city and town into rubble and then come back and pound the rubble into pebbles.

Imagine they hang out in Malibu for the next 60 years...

If there's one word we are not paying close enough attention to in this discussion of Korea, I nominate "reunification."

My second nominee would be "profits" as in the 2 - 6 trillion dollars worth of minerals locked away inside North Korea.

The best chance for North Korea's success is reunification -- under South Korea's control.

The other way around?

The ENTIRE Korean peninsula would be dark at night.

 

[Sallow]

From Antiwar.com:

"Initial reports were unequivocal: those crazy North Koreans had once again broken the longstanding ceasefire and attacked the South, this time at Yeonpyeong Island, shelling civilian quarters, and killing two South Korean marines.

"A few hours later, however, a more nuanced story came out: it seems the South Koreans were conducting military 'exercises' near the disputed island, which North Korea claims as its territory, and South Korean ships had opened fire, albeit – they claim – not in the direction of the North Korean mainland.

"The North Koreans responded by taking it up a few notches, as is their wont, and opening fire on Yeonpyeong."

What were these "exercises" attempting to simulate?

"...the military exercises, code-named 'Hoguk,' involving all four branches of the South Korean armed forces and some 70,000 troops, simulated an attack on North Korea, and were meant to provoke the North Koreans, who responded as might be expected.

"US troops were supposed to have participated in the exercises, but apparently the Americans thought better of it and pulled back at the last moment – perhaps because they knew a provocation was in the making."

Korean Conundrum

Does anyone know the English translation for "Hoguk?"

What's "provocation" in Korean?

That may be the excuse.

But the real deal is blood on the beak of baby Il Jung..the 4 star General.

 

[georgephillip]

I have a question, what is the thing about military service in question of georgephillip? I am newer here, and I do not understand what the thing about it is? I am going to be heading to BMT at the end of my last year in school, and am curious about the basic training argument?

Cain:

BMT?

Basic Military Training?

I'm not really clear on today's terminology; however in March of 1966 I enlisted in the USAF and spent ten of the longest days of my life in Texas. At the time I believed the US invasion of South Vietnam was in the best interest of "freedom" and even planned on volunteering to serve there after completing basic training at Lackland AFB.

Like many others I got homesick, but unlike most others I had an abnormal curvature to my spine that might make me eligible for a medical discharge.

It "worked" and while I'm glad I didn't actively support the murders of 2-3 million Vietnamese by the US military, there were also some unintended consequences. For example, 27 years later when I was 45 and my mother died I was still living under her roof.

Had I cut the umbilical in '66 that probably would not have been the case.

Frankly, I think if I could do it all over I would have refused induction and done my time in Federal prison.

That way I could have cut my ties to home without enabling the killing of innocent human beings.

Not sure if this has answered any of your questions.
I am sure the biggest difference between my time and yours is the communication instrument we're using today.

Your scoliosis should have been weeded out at the MEPS station.

Plus, you didn't mention it to me before.

Not sure about MEPS, daveman.

There was a draft in those days, and the only physical I got was at the induction center in downtown Los Angeles. I believe the scoliosis was found; however, the army would not have exempted me from service at that time.

After my pre-induction physical a friend suggested enlisting in the Air Force on the buddy system, and I went along with that plan.

 

[georgephillip]

Bat-shit insanity and dictators play big roles; however, I'm not using metaphor when I say US airpower reduced North Korea to something close to stone age existence.

Imagine if some interstellar terrorists "liberate" California by killing one out of every three Americans in 2011?

Imagine they "bomb" every US city and town into rubble and then come back and pound the rubble into pebbles.

Imagine they hang out in Malibu for the next 60 years...

If there's one word we are not paying close enough attention to in this discussion of Korea, I nominate "reunification."

My second nominee would be "profits" as in the 2 - 6 trillion dollars worth of minerals locked away inside North Korea.

The best chance for North Korea's success is reunification -- under South Korea's control.

The other way around?

The ENTIRE Korean peninsula would be dark at night.

There's certainly no shortage of devils lurking in the details of Korean reunification. I don't think the (rich) generals in either country or those in the Pentagon will tolerate either side assuming total control of the reconciliation.

It's hard for me to believe it has been only ten years since the "sunshine policy" of SK's president Kim Dae-jung "was going to succeed in preventing a catastrophic collapse of the Communist regime, a flood of refugees, or even the outbreak of war."

It's probably worth investigating whether the current president of South Korea, Lee Myung Bak's, "first act was to abolish the government department set up to facilitate national unification."

That's the claim made by Antiwar.com

 

[georgephillip]

From Antiwar.com:

"Initial reports were unequivocal: those crazy North Koreans had once again broken the longstanding ceasefire and attacked the South, this time at Yeonpyeong Island, shelling civilian quarters, and killing two South Korean marines.

"A few hours later, however, a more nuanced story came out: it seems the South Koreans were conducting military 'exercises' near the disputed island, which North Korea claims as its territory, and South Korean ships had opened fire, albeit – they claim – not in the direction of the North Korean mainland.

"The North Koreans responded by taking it up a few notches, as is their wont, and opening fire on Yeonpyeong."

What were these "exercises" attempting to simulate?

"...the military exercises, code-named 'Hoguk,' involving all four branches of the South Korean armed forces and some 70,000 troops, simulated an attack on North Korea, and were meant to provoke the North Koreans, who responded as might be expected.

"US troops were supposed to have participated in the exercises, but apparently the Americans thought better of it and pulled back at the last moment – perhaps because they knew a provocation was in the making."

Korean Conundrum

Does anyone know the English translation for "Hoguk?"

What's "provocation" in Korean?

That may be the excuse.

But the real deal is blood on the beak of baby Il Jung..the 4 star General.

I don't know anything about the power structure in North Korea. Ultimate control usually belongs to high-ranking military officials in states as primitive as that one.

In this country some believe the president occupies the third level of power with (mostly rich) generals and admirals at the Pentagon ruling the second level while (very rich) global bankers ultimately call the shots.

It's probably no accident Goldman Sachs has recently become a big player in South Korean visions of reunification.

 

[daveman]

Cain:

BMT?

Basic Military Training?

I'm not really clear on today's terminology; however in March of 1966 I enlisted in the USAF and spent ten of the longest days of my life in Texas. At the time I believed the US invasion of South Vietnam was in the best interest of "freedom" and even planned on volunteering to serve there after completing basic training at Lackland AFB.

Like many others I got homesick, but unlike most others I had an abnormal curvature to my spine that might make me eligible for a medical discharge.

It "worked" and while I'm glad I didn't actively support the murders of 2-3 million Vietnamese by the US military, there were also some unintended consequences. For example, 27 years later when I was 45 and my mother died I was still living under her roof.

Had I cut the umbilical in '66 that probably would not have been the case.

Frankly, I think if I could do it all over I would have refused induction and done my time in Federal prison.

That way I could have cut my ties to home without enabling the killing of innocent human beings.

Not sure if this has answered any of your questions.
I am sure the biggest difference between my time and yours is the communication instrument we're using today.

Your scoliosis should have been weeded out at the MEPS station.

Plus, you didn't mention it to me before.

Not sure about MEPS, daveman.

There was a draft in those days, and the only physical I got was at the induction center in downtown Los Angeles. I believe the scoliosis was found; however, the army would not have exempted me from service at that time.

After my pre-induction physical a friend suggested enlisting in the Air Force on the buddy system, and I went along with that plan.

Military Entrance Processing Station -- what used to be called induction centers.

 

[Cain]

I have a question, what is the thing about military service in question of georgephillip? I am newer here, and I do not understand what the thing about it is? I am going to be heading to BMT at the end of my last year in school, and am curious about the basic training argument?

Cain:

BMT?

Basic Military Training?

I'm not really clear on today's terminology; however in March of 1966 I enlisted in the USAF and spent ten of the longest days of my life in Texas. At the time I believed the US invasion of South Vietnam was in the best interest of "freedom" and even planned on volunteering to serve there after completing basic training at Lackland AFB.

Like many others I got homesick, but unlike most others I had an abnormal curvature to my spine that might make me eligible for a medical discharge.

It "worked" and while I'm glad I didn't actively support the murders of 2-3 million Vietnamese by the US military, there were also some unintended consequences. For example, 27 years later when I was 45 and my mother died I was still living under her roof.

Had I cut the umbilical in '66 that probably would not have been the case.

Frankly, I think if I could do it all over I would have refused induction and done my time in Federal prison.

That way I could have cut my ties to home without enabling the killing of innocent human beings.

Not sure if this has answered any of your questions.
I am sure the biggest difference between my time and yours is the communication instrument we're using today.

Yes, BMT for the USAF. (I love saying that, reminds me of Good Morning Vietnam scene with all the initials). I signed a 6yr contract with them, and I went through MEPS and passed with flying colors.

How did they not catch your back at MEPS? MY godfather was drafted for Vietnam from college, but they didn't allow him to go cause he was color blind (no joke). I would think a back problem would be on the top lists. My uncle got honorable discharge for injuring his during Desert Storm.

I hated MEPS, it was the longest day of my entire life, but it wasn't all that bad. A bunch of bs about the food though. "Paid for by the US Government" and it was some of the crappiest eggs I've ever seen lol. The eggs where like fish nets with eggs in them.

 

[daveman]

Bat-shit insanity and dictators play big roles; however, I'm not using metaphor when I say US airpower reduced North Korea to something close to stone age existence.

Imagine if some interstellar terrorists "liberate" California by killing one out of every three Americans in 2011?

Imagine they "bomb" every US city and town into rubble and then come back and pound the rubble into pebbles.

Imagine they hang out in Malibu for the next 60 years...

If there's one word we are not paying close enough attention to in this discussion of Korea, I nominate "reunification."

My second nominee would be "profits" as in the 2 - 6 trillion dollars worth of minerals locked away inside North Korea.

The best chance for North Korea's success is reunification -- under South Korea's control.

The other way around?

The ENTIRE Korean peninsula would be dark at night.

There's certainly no shortage of devils lurking in the details of Korean reunification. I don't think the (rich) generals in either country or those in the Pentagon will tolerate either side assuming total control of the reconciliation.

It's hard for me to believe it has been only ten years since the "sunshine policy" of SK's president Kim Dae-jung "was going to succeed in preventing a catastrophic collapse of the Communist regime, a flood of refugees, or even the outbreak of war."

It's probably worth investigating whether the current president of South Korea, Lee Myung Bak's, "first act was to abolish the government department set up to facilitate national unification."

That's the claim made by Antiwar.com

The claim is true.

The ministry has been the focus of criticism throughout the administrations of the departing president, Roh Moo-hyun, and his predecessor, Kim Dae-jung.

The two leaders, promoting a so-called sunshine policy, brought about profoundly closer relations with the North, but they have been faulted for pouring aid across the border without managing to end North Korean nuclear weapons programs and human rights abuses.​

Ending the practice of flushing money down the toilet with no return is a good idea.

 

[daveman]

Yes, BMT for the USAF. (I love saying that, reminds me of Good Morning Vietnam scene with all the initials). I signed a 6yr contract with them, and I went through MEPS and passed with flying colors.

How did they not catch your back at MEPS? MY godfather was drafted for Vietnam from college, but they didn't allow him to go cause he was color blind (no joke). I would think a back problem would be on the top lists. My uncle got honorable discharge for injuring his during Desert Storm.

I hated MEPS, it was the longest day of my entire life, but it wasn't all that bad. A bunch of bs about the food though. "Paid for by the US Government" and it was some of the crappiest eggs I've ever seen lol. The eggs where like fish nets with eggs in them.

Wait until you get to Lackland, son.

And thanks for enlisting.

 

[daveman]

In this country some believe the president occupies the third level of power with (mostly rich) generals and admirals at the Pentagon ruling the second level while (very rich) global bankers ultimately call the shots.

Some people are idiots.

 

[Jeremy]

In this country some believe the president occupies the third level of power with (mostly rich) generals and admirals at the Pentagon ruling the second level while (very rich) global bankers ultimately call the shots.

Some people are idiots.

Some?

 

[Jeremy]

Yes, BMT for the USAF. (I love saying that, reminds me of Good Morning Vietnam scene with all the initials). I signed a 6yr contract with them, and I went through MEPS and passed with flying colors.

How did they not catch your back at MEPS? MY godfather was drafted for Vietnam from college, but they didn't allow him to go cause he was color blind (no joke). I would think a back problem would be on the top lists. My uncle got honorable discharge for injuring his during Desert Storm.

I hated MEPS, it was the longest day of my entire life, but it wasn't all that bad. A bunch of bs about the food though. "Paid for by the US Government" and it was some of the crappiest eggs I've ever seen lol. The eggs where like fish nets with eggs in them.

Wait until you get to Lackland, son.

And thanks for enlisting.

I wonder if there is still that strategically placed McDonalds just out side the gates by the parade grounds. I fucking hated seeing those golden arches everyday ... just out of reach.

 

[JBeukema]

Cowardice? No. Nearsightedness.

If you want to talk about cowardice, let's talk about your less-than-a-hundred-hours military career.

Chickenshit.

Tunnel vision.
Keeping his eyes firmly on the money.
The $3000 a week he earned for making war movies.

Fuck you and the Gipper.

Tough talk from a guy who went home crying to mommy.

As always, George, you're wrong. Reagan did what he could given his physical limitations. And it was far more than what you accomplished in the military.

Why are you wasting time arguing with a troll?