Muslim baker...make me a Mohammed cake; Muslim hotel owner...host my pork festival; Can they refuse?

[Coyote]

A pork festival or a Muhammed cake... aren't refusing to serve a particular person. It's not providing a particular product.

They don't have to provide that product. For example - you don't go to a wedding cake maker and demand they make you pies. If the Muslim owner refused to provide service to a customer because they were Christian that would be different.

 

[Camp]

I don't think discrimination against customers based upon their race, religion, color, national origin, ancestry, gender, sexual orientation or disability is fair. That is what the law addresses. That is why we go by the law rather than what you think is fair.

Agreed.

We are, indeed, a Nation of Laws, and every American of goodwill is content that it be so.

So this acolyte of the Algore Temple of Global Warming has a flat tire on his SUV on the way to choir practice.

I run a tire shop.

He calls me to fix his flat but I see his "Save the Planet" propaganda plastered all over the vehicle and I tell him to fix his own damn tire - 'cause to help him is against my religion.

Now what?

Now you hit upon the dilemma of these questions about Mohammed images on a cake or a pork festival conducted by Muslims or Jews. The religious doctrine regarding these things are absolute, certain and long established. You will not find experts that disagree with the claim that these things would absolutely violate an established religions beliefs and doctrines. Not so much with the Christian anti gay views. Many denominations of Christianity argue that the anti gay ideas held by many are anti Christian. Arguments are made that the anti gay idea is political and psychological and not really a teaching of Christianity. Can anyone one just make the claim that their decisions in life are guided by religious belief and be covered with the negative or harmful consequences by claiming religious belief?

And many denominations hold otherwise.

What about the ones that hold otherwise?

Especially the ones that have held otherwise in a demonstrable pattern and history that stretches back centuries or even millennia?

That is why I call it a dilemma. Will the courts have to select which "experts" are experts? Will some kind of standards have to be used to determine what religious beliefs are accepted for inclusion in qualified beliefs? Can I start a religion tomorrow that demands my sons and I hunt wild game to provide for nourishment that god has provided and thus be allowed to hunt everyday and ignore government imposed seasons?

 

[Kondor3]

A pork festival or a Muhammed cake... aren't refusing to serve a particular person. It's not providing a particular product.

They don't have to provide that product. For example - you don't go to a wedding cake maker and demand they make you pies. If the Muslim owner refused to provide service to a customer because they were Christian that would be different.

And if they routinely provide a given product, complete with decorations, and they object to a particular ordered decoration on religious grounds?

 

[Coyote]

A pork festival or a Muhammed cake... aren't refusing to serve a particular person. It's not providing a particular product.

They don't have to provide that product. For example - you don't go to a wedding cake maker and demand they make you pies. If the Muslim owner refused to provide service to a customer because they were Christian that would be different.

And if they routinely provide a given product, complete with decorations, and they object to a particular ordered decoration on religious grounds?

Hard to say. You mean like putting a steve and steve doll on a cake?

 

[Agit8r]

My guess is that a Muslim baker wouldn't offer graven images to anyone.

 

[Kondor3]

...That is why I call it a dilemma...

Indeed.

...Will the courts have to select which "experts" are experts?...

Sounds like it. And yet, is that not overreaching, for The State to decide upon who is an 'expert' in such matters and who is not?

...Will some kind of standards have to be used to determine what religious beliefs are accepted for inclusion in qualified beliefs?...

Did not the old Selective Service System utilize a catalog of broadly-recognized religious denominations, and evaluate the core beliefs or precepts of each denomination, in an effort to determine which sects could be considered Validly Objection, with regard to Conscientious Objectors to the Draft?

Was that not overreaching, for the State to hold itself out as the authoritative source for such determinations?

Would that not be overreaching, for the State to undertake a similar review and cataloging, with respect to the issue of homosexuality?

...Can I start a religion tomorrow that demands my sons and I hunt wild game to provide for nourishment that god has provided and thus be allowed to hunt everyday and ignore government imposed seasons?

That, too, is a very good question, and I'm not sure that I have an answer, although my gut-instinct is to use my common sense and to say 'No'.

But, that question probably needs to be subordinated to the 'overreach' questions posed, above.

I dunno... but this could get damned tricky, if pushed far enough, by Side A or B, or both, in the law courts, over time.

 

[Kondor3]

A pork festival or a Muhammed cake... aren't refusing to serve a particular person. It's not providing a particular product.

They don't have to provide that product. For example - you don't go to a wedding cake maker and demand they make you pies. If the Muslim owner refused to provide service to a customer because they were Christian that would be different.

And if they routinely provide a given product, complete with decorations, and they object to a particular ordered decoration on religious grounds?

Hard to say. You mean like putting a steve and steve doll on a cake?

Of course.

Exactly.

If Billy-Jo-Bob's religion condemns homosexuality as immoral and as a sin, why is Billy-Jo-Bob being forced to affix such an image to the top of a cake, and why doesn't the law treat his religous objections the same as Achmed's, in refusing to affix an image of Muhammed to the top of that other cake?

We all get the concept of Protected Classes, but, when the Law, which is intended to protect folks, actually can be seen to be grotesquely unfair to others, then the Law itself may be deemed as unfair, and require changing.

 

[guno]

One thing Muslims and Jews do agree upon , christers are pork stenched

 

[Kondor3]

My guess is that a Muslim baker wouldn't offer graven images to anyone.

Hell, just to spice things up, let's say that he's a Cafeteria Muslim - picking and choosing which religious precepts to honor or observe, and which to ignore - and who routinely affixes imagery to the top of cakes...

But the request for an image of Muhammed on the cake is The Last Straw, and One Step Too Far into the Land of Wickedness, and he can't bring himself to go that far against his faith and his people, and he refuses.

Akin to a Catholic who routinely bakes and decorates cakes for Gays but who refuses a customer order for a cake when he learns that the cake is to feature an image of a fully-clothed Virgin Mary getting gangbanged under her skirts by all twelve Apostles.

People have their limits, and so should The Law, in this context.

 

[Agit8r]

My guess is that a Muslim baker wouldn't offer graven images to anyone.

Hell, just to spice things up, let's say that he's a Cafeteria Muslim - picking and choosing which religious precepts to honor or observe, and which to ignore - and who routinely affixes imagery to the top of cakes...

But the request for an image of Muhammed on the cake is The Last Straw, and One Step Too Far into the Land of Wickedness, and he can't bring himself to go that far against his faith and his people, and he refuses.

Akin to a Catholic who routinely bakes and decorates cakes for Gays but who refuses a customer order for a cake when he learns that the cake is to feature an image of a fully-clothed Virgin Mary getting gangbanged under her skirts by all twelve Apostles.

People have their limits, and so should The Law, in this context.

Neither of those examples involve a refusal which violates any law.

 

[LoneLaugher]

Has a single nutter come around to a common sense understanding of this issue yet? I'm looking for one to congratulate. Holy shit...the stupid burns.

 

[bucs90]

Has a single nutter come around to a common sense understanding of this issue yet? I'm looking for one to congratulate. Holy shit...the stupid burns.

What...that no one should be forced to act against their religious beliefs or participate in any event that does? Yeah...we're on board for that. Are you?

 

[LoneLaugher]

Has a single nutter come around to a common sense understanding of this issue yet? I'm looking for one to congratulate. Holy shit...the stupid burns.

What...that no one should be forced to act against their religious beliefs or participate in any event that does? Yeah...we're on board for that. Are you?

You aren't on board for that. Would you like me to prove it?

 

[bucs90]

Has a single nutter come around to a common sense understanding of this issue yet? I'm looking for one to congratulate. Holy shit...the stupid burns.

What...that no one should be forced to act against their religious beliefs or participate in any event that does? Yeah...we're on board for that. Are you?

You aren't on board for that. Would you like me to prove it?

Sure go ahead

 

[Ravi]

Again, it is my understanding that in the cases where bakers or others have been sued it is for refusing to sell a product to a gay couple that they would sell to a straight couple.

So if a gay couple orders a three tier wedding cake out of the baker's portfolio it would not be legal to refuse to sell to them because of their sexual orientation.

You only quoted half the post...

Please address the post in its entirety...

If someone orders a cake from a Muslim baker, with the image of the prophet Muhammed upon it, is the baker obliged to accommodate?

Only if it is a product they offer. JESUS CHRIST you people are morons.

And our Christian baker does not offer cake-top decorations featuring same-sex couples.

Does that work for you, according to your logic?

Yep.

There we go.

Problem solved.

Now...

What will your position be, when the Gay freak-a-zoids take the Christian baker to court, for refusing to affix a same-sex-couple decoration on top?

Once again, if they do not offer an item they are not obligated to sell it.

 

[Ravi]

I don't think discrimination against customers based upon their race, religion, color, national origin, ancestry, gender, sexual orientation or disability is fair. That is what the law addresses. That is why we go by the law rather than what you think is fair.

Agreed.

We are, indeed, a Nation of Laws, and every American of goodwill is content that it be so.

So this acolyte of the Algore Temple of Global Warming has a flat tire on his SUV on the way to choir practice.

I run a tire shop.

He calls me to fix his flat but I see his "Save the Planet" propaganda plastered all over the vehicle and I tell him to fix his own damn tire - 'cause to help him is against my religion.

Now what?

Now you hit upon the dilemma of these questions about Mohammed images on a cake or a pork festival conducted by Muslims or Jews. The religious doctrine regarding these things are absolute, certain and long established. You will not find experts that disagree with the claim that these things would absolutely violate an established religions beliefs and doctrines. Not so much with the Christian anti gay views. Many denominations of Christianity argue that the anti gay ideas held by many are anti Christian. Arguments are made that the anti gay idea is political and psychological and not really a teaching of Christianity. Can anyone one just make the claim that their decisions in life are guided by religious belief and be covered with the negative or harmful consequences by claiming religious belief?

And many denominations hold otherwise.

What about the ones that hold otherwise?

Especially the ones that have held otherwise in a demonstrable pattern and history that stretches back centuries or even millennia?

That is why I call it a dilemma. Will the courts have to select which "experts" are experts? Will some kind of standards have to be used to determine what religious beliefs are accepted for inclusion in qualified beliefs? Can I start a religion tomorrow that demands my sons and I hunt wild game to provide for nourishment that god has provided and thus be allowed to hunt everyday and ignore government imposed seasons?

This law also makes it so that the government is the decider on if someone's religious beliefs are valid or not. And it is just comical that all these RWNJs support this.

 

[bucs90]

You only quoted half the post...

Please address the post in its entirety...

If someone orders a cake from a Muslim baker, with the image of the prophet Muhammed upon it, is the baker obliged to accommodate?

Only if it is a product they offer. JESUS CHRIST you people are morons.

And our Christian baker does not offer cake-top decorations featuring same-sex couples.

Does that work for you, according to your logic?

Yep.

There we go.

Problem solved.

Now...

What will your position be, when the Gay freak-a-zoids take the Christian baker to court, for refusing to affix a same-sex-couple decoration on top?

Once again, if they do not offer an item they are not obligated to sell it.

But all bakeries offer custom decoration. Birthday cake demands almost make it mandatory for them to survive. If they'll put Mickey Mouse or a dinosaur or other images on it...surely they can copy the image of Mohammed on it for me.

And...they offer catering. I can force them to cater my pork and koran burning festival.

 

[bucs90]

I don't think discrimination against customers based upon their race, religion, color, national origin, ancestry, gender, sexual orientation or disability is fair. That is what the law addresses. That is why we go by the law rather than what you think is fair.

Agreed.

We are, indeed, a Nation of Laws, and every American of goodwill is content that it be so.

So this acolyte of the Algore Temple of Global Warming has a flat tire on his SUV on the way to choir practice.

I run a tire shop.

He calls me to fix his flat but I see his "Save the Planet" propaganda plastered all over the vehicle and I tell him to fix his own damn tire - 'cause to help him is against my religion.

Now what?

Now you hit upon the dilemma of these questions about Mohammed images on a cake or a pork festival conducted by Muslims or Jews. The religious doctrine regarding these things are absolute, certain and long established. You will not find experts that disagree with the claim that these things would absolutely violate an established religions beliefs and doctrines. Not so much with the Christian anti gay views. Many denominations of Christianity argue that the anti gay ideas held by many are anti Christian. Arguments are made that the anti gay idea is political and psychological and not really a teaching of Christianity. Can anyone one just make the claim that their decisions in life are guided by religious belief and be covered with the negative or harmful consequences by claiming religious belief?

And many denominations hold otherwise.

What about the ones that hold otherwise?

Especially the ones that have held otherwise in a demonstrable pattern and history that stretches back centuries or even millennia?

That is why I call it a dilemma. Will the courts have to select which "experts" are experts? Will some kind of standards have to be used to determine what religious beliefs are accepted for inclusion in qualified beliefs? Can I start a religion tomorrow that demands my sons and I hunt wild game to provide for nourishment that god has provided and thus be allowed to hunt everyday and ignore government imposed seasons?

This law also makes it so that the government is the decider on if someone's religious beliefs are valid or not. And it is just comical that all these RWNJs support this.

It would protect Muslims from betraying their religion too.

 

[Moonglow]

This Indiana shit is silly. Freedom means being free not to do something also.

So.....

If I go find a Muslim baker...and demand cakes be made for my religious diversity celebration. ..should he do it? I want cakes in the shape and image of each religious figure. Especially prophet Mohammed! He cant refuse...right? I want it catered. He may have to watch the Mohammed cake...get its head sliced off.

Should he have to do.it?

Oh...and the party will be held at a Muslim owned hotel. In conjunction with the Pork Festival I want to have. If I pay the fee for the conference room...must the Muslim owner rent it to me for my pork festival. ...and my religious diversity cake party where we'll be enjoying a Mohammed cake?

Oh....its different now huh? Because MY opinion is that those Muslim business owners should be able to tell me no and suffer no consequences. Their religious belief should be respected.

The Muslims are not allowed to make pictures of Allah or Muhammad....Muhammad.can be pictured but not his face...

 

[boedicca]

This Indiana shit is silly. Freedom means being free not to do something also.

So.....

If I go find a Muslim baker...and demand cakes be made for my religious diversity celebration. ..should he do it? I want cakes in the shape and image of each religious figure. Especially prophet Mohammed! He cant refuse...right? I want it catered. He may have to watch the Mohammed cake...get its head sliced off.

Should he have to do.it?

Oh...and the party will be held at a Muslim owned hotel. In conjunction with the Pork Festival I want to have. If I pay the fee for the conference room...must the Muslim owner rent it to me for my pork festival. ...and my religious diversity cake party where we'll be enjoying a Mohammed cake?

Oh....its different now huh? Because MY opinion is that those Muslim business owners should be able to tell me no and suffer no consequences. Their religious belief should be respected.

Of course they don't have to cuz....racist....bagger...oh shut up!