Mubarak stepping down.

[Ropey]

If all of this Middle Eastern regime change business continues to spread then I guess I'll have to stick around for a while.

I'd appreciate it.

Thanks.

Yes, good to have you back and I think you may be here quite a bit more if it is interesting times in the ME that have you coming here.

 

[Kalam]

I'd appreciate it.

Thanks.

Yes, good to have you back and I think you may be here quite a bit more if it is interesting times in the ME that have you coming here.

Which presents me with a dilemma since all of this also keeps me busier outside of USMB.

But it's for the better. I was begging to worry that everyone over there had grown too complacent.

 

[Ropey]

Ebb and flow. In all things.

 

[PoliticalChic]

1. The Nazis were largely responsible for the creation of Egypt’s Muslim Brotherhood, the first modern mass movement of political Islam (1928): they hoped to use the Brotherhood against the British in the Middle East. Paul Berman, “Terror and Liberalism,” p. 60,
and John Loftus, ‘The Muslim Brotherhood, The Muslim Brotherhood, Nazis and Al-Qaeda

No, they weren't. The Ikhwan was founded during a time when Hitler was on bad terms with the authorities and spending time in the Bavarian mountains. The Nazi party itself was having trouble with recruitment and wouldn't become notably powerful until after the stock market crashed. Please try to rely on sources that at least make an attempt to appear unbiased.

a. Hassan al-Banna, the founder of the Muslim Brotherhood, was a devout admirer of Adolf Hitler. FrontPage Magazine - Islamo-Fascism Denial

Also an outright lie that can only be found in unscholarly, blatantly propagandistic publications. Hassan al-Banna was opposed to racism and critical of all non-Muslim forces and causes, including those of Europe during World War II. Taken directly from "Toward the Light":

The modern nations have paid close attention to this and have been founded on these principles: we see that Mussolini’s Fascism, Hitler’s Nazism, and Stalin’s Communism are based on pure militarism. But there is a vast difference between all of these and the militarism of Islam, for the Islam which has sanctified the use of force has also preferred peace.

....

‘Commit no treachery, do not exceed the bounds, do not mutilate, do not kill women, children, and the aged, do not cut down fruit-bearing trees, and do not finish off the wounded. You will come across people who lead lives of devotion in hermitages: leave them and that to which they devote themselves, in peace.’

This was the military power of Islam, the guardians of justice, law and order. As for the present military might of Europe, everyone knows that it is an army of injustice and greed. Which of the two sides is more upright and magnanimous?​

Directly from the introduction of Ma'alim fi'l-Tariq:

Democracy in the West has become infertile to such an extent that it is borrowing from the systems of the Eastern bloc, especially in the economic system, under the name of socialism. It is the same with the Eastern bloc. Its social theories, foremost among which is Marxism, in the beginning attracted not only a large number of people from the East but also from the West, as it was a way of life based on a creed. But now Marxism is defeated on the plane of thought, and if it is stated that not a single nation in the world is truly Marxist, it will not be an exaggeration. On the whole this theory conflicts with man's nature and his needs. This ideology prospers only in a degenerate society or in a society which has become cowed as a result of some form of prolonged dictatorship. But now, even under these circumstances, its materialistic economic system is failing, although this was the only foundation on which its structure was based. Russia, which is the leader of the communist countries, is itself suffering from shortages of food. Although during the times of the Tsars Russia used to produce surplus food, it now has to import food from abroad and has to sell its reserves of gold for this purpose. The main reason for this is the failure of the system of collective farming, or, one can say, the failure of a system which is against human nature.​

As for Maududi, some have suggested that his view of history shares some basic similarities with Hegelian and Marxist conflict theory, though he was explicitly critical of both thinkers. To suggest that his ideology has roots in "Marxism-Leninism", however, moves beyond disingenuous and is simply another lie. "Marxism" is first and foremost an economic theory that Maududi certainly did not subscribe to. I have interest in speaking about Shari'ati other than to point out the silliness of conflating Sunni and Shi'i political ideologies, which are fundamentally different.

3. "Haj Amin al-Husseini escaped to Egypt and formed a bloody-minded alliance with the founder of the Muslim Brotherhood, Hassan al-Banna (the grandfather of Tariq Ramadan). Al-Banna welcomed Husseini to Egypt and called him “the hero who challenged an empire and fought Zionism with the help of Hitler and Germany. Germany and Hitler are gone but Amin al-Husseini will continue the struggle.”

I find absolutely no reference to this either in al-Banna's memoirs nor in any of several books about his life and the history of the Ikhwan. All of the references to this statement point to one 2009 book which cites an OSS report -- I am unable to find any trace of this report or any other reference to it and will assume that this is simply another fabrication unless I'm shown credible evidence that suggests otherwise.

Rommel’s defeat aborted the plan, but al-Banna’s Muslim Brotherhood fought side by side with the mufti’s cadres in the 1948 Arab and Palestinian war against Israel with the same goal of destruction in mind. The Muslim Brotherhood is alive and well today, with hundreds of thousands of followers in many parts of the world. In Gaza, the movement is called Hamas, and its charter mimes the World War II symbiosis between Nazi eliminationist anti-Semitism and radical Islamism."

The claim that the charter is "Nazi" and "eliminationist" is as dishonest as everything else in your calumnious litany of a post. From the charter, article 31:

"The Islamic Resistance Movement is a humanistic movement. It takes care of human rights and is guided by Islamic tolerance when dealing with the followers of other religions. It does not antagonize anyone of them except if it is antagonized by it or stands in its way to hamper its moves and waste its efforts.

Under the wing of Islam, it is possible for the followers of the three religions - Islam, Christianity and Judaism - to coexist in peace and quiet with each other. Peace and quiet would not be possible except under the wing of Islam."​

It's painfully obvious that you haven't familiarized yourself with any of the figures or movements you're attempting to discuss and are merely repeating aspersions printed by anti-Muslim and Zionist purveyors of propaganda.

It's most humorously obvious that you find yourself left with tortured apologetics for this murderous inhuman nest of vipe

rs.
But, I believe in the marketplace of ideas, so let's each produce the evidence of our perspective, and let the reader decide.

1. After the abortive attempt by Iraqi Arabs to exterminate the Jews of Iraq, 1941, , the Arabs joined with the Iranians. The name Iran means ‘Aryan,’ and was chosen to support a massive Nazi-dominated infrastructure which was ready to provide oil to the Nazis. By the early 1930s, Reza Pahlavi's close ties with Nazi Germany began worrying the Allied states.[8] Germany's modern state and economy highly impressed the Shah, and there were hundreds of Germans involved in every aspect of the state, from setting up factories to building roads, railroads and bridges.[9] German?Iranian relations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

2. Jan. 30, 1933, Adolf Hitler became the newly appointed Chancellor of Germany, Arabs throughout the Mideast petitioned to join the Nazi party.

a. Mein Kampf was rated 4th on the best-seller list among Palestinians in a survey conducted and reported in PA daily Al-Hayat Al-Jadida. Source: Al-Hayat Al-Jadida (Fatah), Sept. 2, 1999

b. Books such as Mein Kampf,The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, and The International Jew are high on Turkish bestseller lists, and are displayed prominently in the front of bookstores.

3.There were thousands of Muslims who directly joined and aided the Nazi war efforts, forming at least three Waffen SS Divions. “These SS Jihadists assisted the Ustashi Croats in their slaughter of 800,000 Serbs and Jews.” Prophet of Doom - Islamic Clubs - Handschar Muslim Waffen SS Divisions

a. In Yugoslavia, Muslims and the Catholic Church formed the Ustashe, the most brutal of all Nazi forces: the German Croatian fuehrer, Dr. Ante Pavelic had a basket of 40 pounds of eyes on his desk. The guards in prison camp had a contest to see who could slit more throats in one night: the winner slit 1,350. The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem organized these squads.

The above from Edwin Black's book, “ The Farhud: The Roots of the Arab-Nazi Alliance in the Holocaust.”

4. The Grand Mufti, , Haj Amin al-Husseini. The victorious Allies should have tried the mufti as a war criminal. Instead, he escaped to Egypt and formed a bloody-minded alliance with the founder of the Muslim Brotherhood, Hassan al-Banna (the grandfather of Tariq Ramadan).

5. Of course the duplitious Hassan al-Banna’s “stated belief that Nazi racial theories were incompatible with Islam.” Why, then, did al-Banna arrange—as Herf and other historians have documented—for the translation and distribution to the Arab world of Mein Kampf? Even Ruthven once admitted—in The New York Review—that Nazi doctrines about the Jews had infected Muslim Brotherhood offshoots like Hamas. “Imported European anti-Semitism is now embedded in the charter of Hamas, whose thirty-second article explicitly cites the Protocols as ‘proof’ of Israeli conduct,” Ruthven wrote in 2008. “As Sari Nusseibeh, the Palestinian philosopher and former PLO representative in Jerusalem, has observed, Hamas’s charter ‘sounds as if it were copied out from the pages of Der Stürmer.’”The Intellectuals Keep Flying by Sol Stern, City Journal 21 October 2010

5. And, of course, nothing has changed for these savages: "Mohamed Ghanem, one of the leaders of the Terror Group Leader Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, calls Egypt to stop pumping gas to Israel and prepare the Egyptian army for a war with it’s eastern neighbor."
It Begins… Muslim Brotherhood Leader Tells Egyptian Army To Prepare For War With Israel | The Gateway Pundit

 

[Ropey]

Kalam will simply discount what you post PC. If not, then he will minimize the effect of it and if that doesn't work he will outright simply laugh.

Or some variation of the above.

 

[mdn2000]

As terrible as it sounds not all people have the education for Democracy. Exactly what are the qualifications of anyone in Egypt, that is to run a Democracy or for that matter a government.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Kalam will simply discount what you post PC. If not, then he will minimize the effect of it and if that doesn't work he will outright simply laugh.

Or some variation of the above.

My first rule is that I am responsible for what I do...it matters not, to me, what the opponent does.

Specifically, I will write what I wish readers to see, to consider, and the opponent can use any of the techniques that you suggest.
I believe the reader can, as suggested in Matthew 3:12, separate the wheat from the chaff.

I hope what I wrote, was informative.

 

[Kalam]

It's most humorously obvious that you find yourself left with tortured apologetics for this murderous inhuman nest of vipe

rs.

Eh, not really. Most of my response consisted of picking up books and tracts that the targets of your defamation actually wrote, flipping through to relevant passages, and showing you that their own words directly contradict most of the laughably inaccurate claims you've posted about them. I see that I was successful and that you've found yourself unable to address anything that I've posted. So now you present me with another batch of nonsense. "Tortured apologetics" indeed.

But, I believe in the marketplace of ideas,

so let's each produce the evidence of our perspective, and let the reader decide.

I already have. What have you given me? Let's look:

-Wikipedia
-Al-Hayaat al-Jadeedah (via some internet propaganda mill)
-City Journal (Jewish author, conservative think tank)
-"Prophet of Doom"
-Gateway Pundit (right-wing blog)
-"Muslim Terror" from "Jewish Community News"
-Frontpage Magazine

It's clear that you're either unwilling or unable to support your claims with information from credible publications.

1. After the abortive attempt by Iraqi Arabs to exterminate the Jews of Iraq, 1941, , the Arabs joined with the Iranians. The name Iran means ‘Aryan,’ and was chosen to support a massive Nazi-dominated infrastructure which was ready to provide oil to the Nazis. By the early 1930s, Reza Pahlavi's close ties with Nazi Germany began worrying the Allied states.[8] Germany's modern state and economy highly impressed the Shah, and there were hundreds of Germans involved in every aspect of the state, from setting up factories to building roads, railroads and bridges.[9] German?Iranian relations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I don't know why you're discussing Iran and the regime of U.S. ally Mohammad Reza Pahlavi as if I ever expressed support for either his secularist puppet dictatorship or the current ithna 'ashari regime. In any case, I don't feel compelled to defend either since I believe the latter should go the way of the former.

2. Jan. 30, 1933, Adolf Hitler became the newly appointed Chancellor of Germany, Arabs throughout the Mideast petitioned to join the Nazi party.

This information is useless without some indication of the number of people it describes.

a. Mein Kampf was rated 4th on the best-seller list among Palestinians in a survey conducted and reported in PA daily Al-Hayat Al-Jadida. Source: Al-Hayat Al-Jadida (Fatah), Sept. 2, 1999

b. Books such as Mein Kampf,The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, and The International Jew are high on Turkish bestseller lists, and are displayed prominently in the front of bookstores.

I haven't and won't deny that anti-Semitism is a serious problem that needs to be addressed in the Zionist-era Middle East. Support for national socialism or any other kafir political cause is tantamount to an abandonment of Shari'ah, as is supporting discrimination on the basis of ethnicity.

3.There were thousands of Muslims who directly joined and aided the Nazi war efforts, forming at least three Waffen SS Divions. “These SS Jihadists assisted the Ustashi Croats in their slaughter of 800,000 Serbs and Jews.”

If we generously assume that each division consisted of 10,000 soldiers, that gives us 30,000 so-called Muslims who certainly played a lesser role in the war than the hundreds of thousands or more who served in the all-volunteer British Indian Army and the French Foreign Legion. None of this means anything, however, since a Muslim committed to his religion fights solely for the sake of Allah rather than for the interests of various European states.

Prophet of Doom - Islamic Clubs - Handschar Muslim Waffen SS Divisions

I find it funny that you criticize people for reading Protocols when this tripe meets your standards of credibility.

a. In Yugoslavia, Muslims and the Catholic Church formed the Ustashe, the most brutal of all Nazi forces: the German Croatian fuehrer, Dr. Ante Pavelic had a basket of 40 pounds of eyes on his desk. The guards in prison camp had a contest to see who could slit more throats in one night: the winner slit 1,350. The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem organized these squads.

Amin al-Husayni was a murtad and admiration for him is worrisome. The most brutal Nazi force was probably the Einsatzgruppen.

The above from Edwin Black's book, “ The Farhud: The Roots of the Arab-Nazi Alliance in the Holocaust.”

A Zionist Jew -- color me shocked.

4. The Grand Mufti, , Haj Amin al-Husseini. The victorious Allies should have ibn tried the mufti as a war criminal.

He should have faced trial in a Shari'ah court for irtidaad. Unfortunately there were and are no Shari'ah courts in the area.

Instead, he escaped to Egypt and formed a bloody-minded alliance with the founder of the Muslim Brotherhood, Hassan al-Banna (the grandfather of Tariq Ramadan).

Please document this claim with credible information.

5. Of course the duplitious Hassan al-Banna’s “stated belief that Nazi racial theories were incompatible with Islam.” Why, then, did al-Banna arrange—as Herf and other historians have documented—for the translation and distribution to the Arab world of Mein Kampf?

Assuming that this is true, are you suggesting that translating a highly relevant (at the time) autobiographical work implies agreement with the ideas expressed therein?

Even Ruthven once admitted—in The New York Review—that Nazi doctrines about the Jews had infected Muslim Brotherhood offshoots like Hamas. “Imported European anti-Semitism is now embedded in the charter of Hamas, whose thirty-second article explicitly cites the Protocols as ‘proof’ of Israeli conduct,” Ruthven wrote in 2008. “As Sari Nusseibeh, the Palestinian philosopher and former PLO representative in Jerusalem, has observed, Hamas’s charter ‘sounds as if it were copied out from the pages of Der Stürmer.’”The Intellectuals Keep Flying by Sol Stern, City Journal 21 October 2010

I've already provided you with an excerpt from the actual charter -- are you claiming that it doesn't present peaceful coexistence with Jews as an ultimate goal?

That isn't to say the anti-Semitism isn't an issue in Palestine, because it is. You'd also do well to note the prevalence of anti-Muslim hatred among the occupying population.

5. And, of course, nothing has changed for these savages: "Mohamed Ghanem, one of the leaders of the Terror Group Leader Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, calls Egypt to stop pumping gas to Israel and prepare the Egyptian army for a war with it’s eastern neighbor."
It Begins… Muslim Brotherhood Leader Tells Egyptian Army To Prepare For War With Israel | The Gateway Pundit

If military force of that nature becomes necessary, the liberators of Palestine will fight under the banner of Islam rather than that of some corrupt nation-state, in sha' Allah.

 

[Kalam]

Kalam will simply discount what you post PC. If not, then he will minimize the effect of it and if that doesn't work he will outright simply laugh.

Or some variation of the above.

Feel free to offer specific evidence against any of my claims in either my most recent post or the one that PoliticalChic was unable to address.

 

[Ropey]

If military force of that nature becomes necessary, the liberators of Palestine will fight under the banner of Islam rather than that of some corrupt nation-state, in sha' Allah.

Is there any country right now that truly floats under the true banner that you speak of Kalam?

 

[Kalam]

If military force of that nature becomes necessary, the liberators of Palestine will fight under the banner of Islam rather than that of some corrupt nation-state, in sha' Allah.

Is there any country right now that truly floats under the true banner that you speak of Kalam?

With control over the territory it claims? Not currently. Rest assured that work is always being done to secure the establishment of such a nation.

 

[Ropey]

It's most humorously obvious that you find yourself left with tortured apologetics for this murderous inhuman nest of vipers.

Eh, not really. Most of my response consisted of picking up books and tracts that the targets of your defamation actually wrote, flipping through to relevant passages, and showing you that their own words directly contradict most of the laughably inaccurate claims you've posted about them. I see that I was successful and that you've found yourself unable to address anything that I've posted. So now you present me with another batch of nonsense. "Tortured apologetics" indeed.

But, I believe in the marketplace of ideas,

I already have. What have you given me? Let's look:

-Wikipedia
-Al-Hayaat al-Jadeedah (via some internet propaganda mill)
-City Journal (Jewish author, conservative think tank)
-"Prophet of Doom"
-Gateway Pundit (right-wing blog)
-"Muslim Terror" from "Jewish Community News"
-Frontpage Magazine

It's clear that you're either unwilling or unable to support your claims with information from credible publications.

Kalam will simply discount what you post PC. (See above)

I don't know why you're discussing Iran and the regime of U.S. ally Mohammad Reza Pahlavi as if I ever expressed support for either his secularist puppet dictatorship or the current ithna 'ashari regime. In any case, I don't feel compelled to defend either since I believe the latter should go the way of the former.

This information is useless without some indication of the number of people it describes.

This information is not about your support or lack of support. It was included as support. (Minimizing the effect. - Not your issue)

I haven't and won't deny that anti-Semitism is a serious problem that needs to be addressed in the Zionist-era Middle East. Support for national socialism or any other kafir political cause is tantamount to an abandonment of Shari'ah, as is supporting discrimination on the basis of ethnicity.

I removed your attachment of national socialism with any other kafir polticial cause and kept the connection to it being an abandonment of Shari'ah. Then I removed the more emotional attachment you made to the Shari'ah being an abandonment if it were supportive of discrimination on the basis of ethnicity.

So, now were are left with the statement that any kafir (unbeliever) cause is tantamount to an abandonment of Shari'ah.

Is this correct?

If we generously assume that each division consisted of 10,000 soldiers, that gives us 30,000 so-called Muslims who certainly played a lesser role in the war than the hundreds of thousands or more who served in the all-volunteer British Indian Army and the French Foreign Legion. None of this means anything, however, since a Muslim committed to his religion fights solely for the sake of Allah rather than for the interests of various European states.

Sake of Allah? What do you mean? Who decides the sake of Allah? Who does right now? Are any countries defining this "sake of Allah"? Is blasphemy tied to this "sake of Allah?

I find it funny that you criticize people for reading Protocols when this tripe meets your standards of credibility.

I understand. You believe that the Protocols should be a required reading as proof of what though?

IAmin al-Husayni was a murtad and admiration for him is worrisome. The most brutal Nazi force was probably the Einsatzgruppen.

This is the minimization I was speaking about.

IA Zionist Jew -- color me shocked.

Bias coming out?

If military force of that nature becomes necessary, the liberators of Palestine will fight under the banner of Islam rather than that of some corrupt nation-state, in sha' Allah.

Is there any country right now that truly floats under the true banner that you speak of Kalam?

With control over the territory it claims? Not currently.

So, it's all rather 'up in the air' isn't it Kalam?

 

[Ropey]

If military force of that nature becomes necessary, the liberators of Palestine will fight under the banner of Islam rather than that of some corrupt nation-state, in sha' Allah.

Is there any country right now that truly floats under the true banner that you speak of Kalam?

With control over the territory it claims? Not currently. Rest assured that work is always being done to secure the establishment of such a nation.

The comedian in me wants to say, What! The Fifty Seven Muslim Countries Aren't Enough? What more do you want?

And people say the Jews want everything.

 

[Kalam]

The comedian in me wants to say, What! The Fifty Seven Muslim Countries Aren't Enough? What more do you want?

And people say the Jews want everything.

I suspect they mean about as much to me as a Jewish homeland in Alaska or Madagascar would have to you.

 

[Kalam]

I removed your attachment of national socialism with any other kafir polticial cause and kept the connection to it being an abandonment of Shari'ah. Then I removed the more emotional attachment you made to the Shari'ah being an abandonment if it were supportive of discrimination on the basis of ethnicity.

So, now were are left with the statement that any kafir (unbeliever) cause is tantamount to an abandonment of Shari'ah.

Is this correct?

"Cause" is broad. A number of scholars, jurists, and thinkers have commented on the non-permissibility of serving (voluntarily) in kafir armies and working for the advancement of political causes that aren't Shari'i. Beyond that I have no comment.

Sake of Allah? What do you mean? Who decides the sake of Allah? Who does right now? Are any countries defining this "sake of Allah"?

Narrated Abu Musa Al-Ashari: A bedouin asked the Prophet, "A man may fight for the sake of booty, and another may fight so that he may be mentioned by the people, and a third may fight to show his position -- which of these is regarded as fighting in Allah's Cause?" The Prophet said, "He who fights so that Allah's Word should be superior fights for Allah's Cause." - Bukhari​

Fighting to fulfill the commandments in the Qur'an. Fighting with any other intention has no reward in the afterlife even if a person is on the side of the mujahideen. We're given the example of hazrat 'Ali (RA) who overpowered an enemy soldier during the Battle of Siffin and raised his sword to kill him. The man spat in his face and 'Ali sheathed his sword and walked away without killing him. He was asked why he did this and explained that if he had killed the man at that point, it would have been an act of anger and revenge and not one performed for the sake of Allah.

Is blasphemy tied to this "sake of Allah?

What do you mean?

I understand. You believe that the Protocols should be a required reading as proof of what though?

I don't believe it should be required reading. It's useful for a person who wants to familiarize himself with propaganda or with the history surrounding the document, little else.

This is the minimization I was speaking about.

What have I minimized? Be specific.

Bias coming out?

Do you not think it's worth mentioning that the author is a Jewish Zionist (and quite an ardent one at that)? Would you reasonably expect an account or analysis written by, say, an Islamist to be without bias?

So, it's all rather 'up in the air' isn't it Kalam?

Not really.

 

[Ropey]

I removed your attachment of national socialism with any other kafir polticial cause and kept the connection to it being an abandonment of Shari'ah. Then I removed the more emotional attachment you made to the Shari'ah being an abandonment if it were supportive of discrimination on the basis of ethnicity.

So, now were are left with the statement that any kafir (unbeliever) cause is tantamount to an abandonment of Shari'ah.

Is this correct?

"Cause" is broad. A number of scholars, jurists, and thinkers have commented on the non-permissibility of serving (voluntarily) in kafir armies and working for the advancement of political causes that aren't Shari'i. Beyond that I have no comment.

Of course the cause is broad as that complicates matters. Let's simplify. I will stay within your bounds although where I would really like to go has been bounded by your refusal to comment.

Let's even take your postulate since it seems likely that this is the case which is of course, why you bounded it.

There is a concern within the Muslim community of both Shia and Sunny regarding those true believers who are American and who are engaged in what is a political cause other than Shari'a. Germany is responding to Turkish Muslim identity and issues are in other countries as well, where the demand from "certain powerful scholars" who are in control of countries are doing acts that you disavow but who have yet to create one of their own true believer countries out of the 57 Moslem and improperly ruled countries that are currently in existence?

Sake of Allah? What do you mean? Who decides the sake of Allah? Who does right now? Are any countries defining this "sake of Allah"?

Narrated Abu Musa Al-Ashari: A bedouin asked the Prophet, "A man may fight for the sake of booty, and another may fight so that he may be mentioned by the people, and a third may fight to show his position -- which of these is regarded as fighting in Allah's Cause?" The Prophet said, "He who fights so that Allah's Word should be superior fights for Allah's Cause." - Bukhari​

So, he that fights so that Allah's Word should be superior. Superior against what?

Fighting to fulfill the commandments in the Qur'an. Fighting with any other intention has no reward in the afterlife even if a person is on the side of the mujahideen. We're given the example of hazrat 'Ali (RA) who overpowered an enemy soldier during the Battle of Siffin and raised his sword to kill him. The man spat in his face and 'Ali sheathed his sword and walked away without killing him. He was asked why he did this and explained that if he had killed the man at that point, it would have been an act of anger and revenge and not one performed for the sake of Allah.​

All very nice, but that's now what we are seeing. I've had this kind of discussion with you before That's not what we are seeing.

What do you mean?

I don't believe it should be required reading. It's useful for a person who wants to familiarize himself with propaganda or with the history surrounding the document, little else.

What have I minimized? Be specific.

You turn to the massive ownership of such books as to being shown for purposes of proof of propaganda.

And you can't see the extreme minimization? Thanks for the chuckle.

Bias coming out?

Do you not think it's worth mentioning that the author is a Jewish Zionist (and quite an ardent one at that)? Would you reasonably expect an account or analysis written by, say, an Islamist to be without bias?

Mentioning? For certain Kalam. Discounting for that bias, no. That's a different thing entirely Kalam. Contempt prior to investigation often proves one out. Of course I expect bias, but I also expect that there are points to be gleaned and which can still be useful in the process of defining degree of reality.

So, it's all rather 'up in the air' isn't it Kalam?

Not really.

So, you say that the view you espouse as the true law has yet to be instituted in any of the 57 Muslim countries, but you and yours are hard at work to get it some momentum.

Is there any country right now that truly floats under the true banner that you speak of Kalam?

With control over the territory it claims? Not currently. Rest assured that work is always being done to secure the establishment of such a nation.

And that's not rather up in the air to you Kalam?

 

[Kalam]

Of course the cause is broad as that complicates matters. Let's simplify. I will stay within your bounds although where I would really like to go has been bounded by your refusal to comment.

By all means, "go." There's no harm in asking a question. I simply can't promise that I'll be able to answer.

Let's even take your postulate since it seems likely that this is the case which is of course, why you bounded it.

There is a concern within the Muslim community of both Shia and Sunny regarding those true believers who are American and who are engaged in what is a political cause other than Shari'a. Germany is responding to Turkish Muslim identity and issues are in other countries as well, where the demand from "certain powerful scholars" who are in control of countries are doing acts that you disavow but who have yet to create one of their own true believer countries out of the 57 Moslem and improperly ruled countries that are currently in existence?

I'm having trouble understanding what you're asking...

So, he that fights so that Allah's Word should be superior. Superior against what?

Against whichever non-Shari'i system is used to rule over the land in which he or she is fighting.

All very nice, but that's now what we are seeing. I've had this kind of discussion with you before That's not what we are seeing.

I beg your pardon?

You turn to the massive ownership of such books as to being shown for purposes of proof of propaganda.

You're saying that I think Hamas disseminates them for that purpose? I'm under no such delusion.

Mentioning? For certain Kalam. Discounting for that bias, no. That's a different thing entirely Kalam. Contempt prior to investigation often proves one out. Of course I expect bias, but I also expect that there are points to be gleaned and which can still be useful in the process of defining degree of reality.

I read the information before examining the background of its author.

So, you say that the view you espouse as the true law has yet to be instituted in any of the 57 Muslim countries,

Of course not -- it has been instituted before. It simply doesn't prevail in any of those countries at the moment.

but you and yours are hard at work to get it some momentum.

Me? I'm just a student.

And that's not rather up in the air to you Kalam?

When the movement has clear aims and plans and is making significant progress internationally? The Pakistani military has been infiltrated and everybody knows it; a coup will happen sooner or later. The Khilafah Conference in Indonesia filled a 100,000-person stadium to capacity. Even in the many countries that proscribe these movements the sheer number of arrests reported in the "crackdowns" indicate high levels of support for the cause. Would the powers that be "crack down" if they didn't feel threatened?

This brings us back to the inaccuracy of the claim regarding 57 "Islamic states." Uzbek President Islam Karimov had some members of Hizb ut-Tahrir arrested and tortured until they signed documents renouncing their faith. Those who refused were finally killed by being boiled to death. Is this the behavior of an Islamic country? Are we supposed to be content with this?

 

[High_Gravity]

Come on Obama, just give Mubarak the season courtside Lakers tickets and let's be done with this.

Mubarak wants his own box, fuck the courtside tickets lol.

 

[PoliticalChic]

"The politically correct diplomacy of American presidents throughout the generations ... is painfully naive."

Israel shocked by Obama's betrayal of Mubarak | Reuters

 

[saveliberty]

Come on Obama, just give Mubarak the season courtside Lakers tickets and let's be done with this.

Mubarak wants his own box, fuck the courtside tickets lol.

The delay in leaving and counter protestors lead me to believe he will get a box. Pine and slightly larger than his current height.