More lefties learn the glory of the 15 dollar minimum wage....unemployment.....

[Brain357]

The naivete (or is it ignorance?) on this topic is stunning.

When wages artificially increase (and they will), the first thing most businesses with a significant amount of lower-wage workers will do is cut hours. They will not increase prices yet. They will obviously slow hiring or only hire people who are willing to work fewer hours. Maybe cut benefits. Then they'll watch for a while and see how this plays out.

If they are still squeezed, the next thing they will do is drop lower-end staff and look at either discovering or purchasing efficiencies, ways to produce more with less.

Only after they have done all of the above will they increase prices to any significant degree.

The workers on the lower end will just have to deal with fewer hours and/or look for a new job. Or they could start their own business. There are only so many moving parts here.

.

We have increased min wage many times. This has never lead to an increase in unemployment.

 

[Mac1958]

The naivete (or is it ignorance?) on this topic is stunning.

When wages artificially increase (and they will), the first thing most businesses with a significant amount of lower-wage workers will do is cut hours. They will not increase prices yet. They will obviously slow hiring or only hire people who are willing to work fewer hours. Maybe cut benefits. Then they'll watch for a while and see how this plays out.

If they are still squeezed, the next thing they will do is drop lower-end staff and look at either discovering or purchasing efficiencies, ways to produce more with less.

Only after they have done all of the above will they increase prices to any significant degree.

The workers on the lower end will just have to deal with fewer hours and/or look for a new job. Or they could start their own business. There are only so many moving parts here.

.

We have increased min wage many times. This has never lead to an increase in unemployment.

Link?

.

 

[Brain357]

The naivete (or is it ignorance?) on this topic is stunning.

When wages artificially increase (and they will), the first thing most businesses with a significant amount of lower-wage workers will do is cut hours. They will not increase prices yet. They will obviously slow hiring or only hire people who are willing to work fewer hours. Maybe cut benefits. Then they'll watch for a while and see how this plays out.

If they are still squeezed, the next thing they will do is drop lower-end staff and look at either discovering or purchasing efficiencies, ways to produce more with less.

Only after they have done all of the above will they increase prices to any significant degree.

The workers on the lower end will just have to deal with fewer hours and/or look for a new job. Or they could start their own business. There are only so many moving parts here.

.

We have increased min wage many times. This has never lead to an increase in unemployment.

Link?

.

The Impact of Increasing the Minimum Wage on Unemployment No Evidence of Harm An Economic Sense
Full time workers in minimum wage jobs are poor, despite their evident willingness to work. Even if the minimum wage is raised to $9.00 an hour from the current $7.25 an hour, as Obama has proposed, these working poor will still be earning well less than poverty line income. And bringing the minimum wage to $9.00 an hour will only bring it back to where it was more than a half century ago. Real GDP per capita has more than doubled over this period. Yet minimum wage workers are currently earning 20% less.

Rigorous empirical studies do not show that increasing the minimum wage by an amount such as this will lead to an increase in unemployment of such workers. Nor does one see such an increase in unemployment in a more casual examination of the evidence, such as in the graphs above. While the poor need more assistance than just from this, increasing the minimum wage as Obama has proposed would certainly be an important help.

 

[Mac1958]

The naivete (or is it ignorance?) on this topic is stunning.

When wages artificially increase (and they will), the first thing most businesses with a significant amount of lower-wage workers will do is cut hours. They will not increase prices yet. They will obviously slow hiring or only hire people who are willing to work fewer hours. Maybe cut benefits. Then they'll watch for a while and see how this plays out.

If they are still squeezed, the next thing they will do is drop lower-end staff and look at either discovering or purchasing efficiencies, ways to produce more with less.

Only after they have done all of the above will they increase prices to any significant degree.

The workers on the lower end will just have to deal with fewer hours and/or look for a new job. Or they could start their own business. There are only so many moving parts here.

.

We have increased min wage many times. This has never lead to an increase in unemployment.

Link?

.

The Impact of Increasing the Minimum Wage on Unemployment No Evidence of Harm An Economic Sense
Full time workers in minimum wage jobs are poor, despite their evident willingness to work. Even if the minimum wage is raised to $9.00 an hour from the current $7.25 an hour, as Obama has proposed, these working poor will still be earning well less than poverty line income. And bringing the minimum wage to $9.00 an hour will only bring it back to where it was more than a half century ago. Real GDP per capita has more than doubled over this period. Yet minimum wage workers are currently earning 20% less.

Rigorous empirical studies do not show that increasing the minimum wage by an amount such as this will lead to an increase in unemployment of such workers. Nor does one see such an increase in unemployment in a more casual examination of the evidence, such as in the graphs above. While the poor need more assistance than just from this, increasing the minimum wage as Obama has proposed would certainly be an important help.

That's precisely the type of evidence I was expecting, because raw, empirical evidence does not and cannot measure what does not happen. In other words, there is no way to measure cause and effect here, unless you can show me what a business would have done in a different environment.

Business react to higher employee costs in the way I described. They don't just "absorb" the costs - as I keep reading - the money has to come from somewhere, and I described the most likely process. The most obvious example of my point is automation. Like water in a stream, a business has to look for the easiest movement of its cash flow.

I'm not arguing against minimum wage or increases in it. My point is that empirical data completely misses/ignores business psychology, and that's where decisions are often made.

.

 

[Brain357]

Minimum Wage Mythbusters - U.S. Department of Labor
Myth: Increasing the minimum wage will cause people to lose their jobs.

Not true: A review of 64 studies on minimum wage increases found no discernable effect on employment. Additionally, more than 600 economists, seven of them Nobel Prize winners in economics, have signed onto a letter in support of raising the minimum wage to $10.10 by 2016.

 

[Brain357]

The naivete (or is it ignorance?) on this topic is stunning.

When wages artificially increase (and they will), the first thing most businesses with a significant amount of lower-wage workers will do is cut hours. They will not increase prices yet. They will obviously slow hiring or only hire people who are willing to work fewer hours. Maybe cut benefits. Then they'll watch for a while and see how this plays out.

If they are still squeezed, the next thing they will do is drop lower-end staff and look at either discovering or purchasing efficiencies, ways to produce more with less.

Only after they have done all of the above will they increase prices to any significant degree.

The workers on the lower end will just have to deal with fewer hours and/or look for a new job. Or they could start their own business. There are only so many moving parts here.

.

We have increased min wage many times. This has never lead to an increase in unemployment.

Link?

.

The Impact of Increasing the Minimum Wage on Unemployment No Evidence of Harm An Economic Sense
Full time workers in minimum wage jobs are poor, despite their evident willingness to work. Even if the minimum wage is raised to $9.00 an hour from the current $7.25 an hour, as Obama has proposed, these working poor will still be earning well less than poverty line income. And bringing the minimum wage to $9.00 an hour will only bring it back to where it was more than a half century ago. Real GDP per capita has more than doubled over this period. Yet minimum wage workers are currently earning 20% less.

Rigorous empirical studies do not show that increasing the minimum wage by an amount such as this will lead to an increase in unemployment of such workers. Nor does one see such an increase in unemployment in a more casual examination of the evidence, such as in the graphs above. While the poor need more assistance than just from this, increasing the minimum wage as Obama has proposed would certainly be an important help.

That's precisely the type of evidence I was expecting, because raw, empirical evidence does not and cannot measure what does not happen. In other words, there is no way to measure cause and effect here, unless you can show me what a business would have done in a different environment.

Business react to higher employee costs in the way I described. They don't just "absorb" the costs - as I keep reading - the money has to come from somewhere, and I described the most likely process. The most obvious example of my point is automation. Like water in a stream, a business has to look for the easiest movement of its cash flow.

I'm not arguing against minimum wage or increases in it. My point is that empirical data completely misses/ignores business psychology, and that's where decisions are often made.

.

You must be joking. So you want to ignore what has actually happened and just stick to your theory even though it is proven wrong by history? Sorry but we have increased minimum wage many times and we know it does not increase unemployment.

 

[rdean]

Here are more people being enlightened with basic economics.....

Seattle Minimum Wage Kills Jobs Hurts Students PJ Tatler

Students at the University of Washington in Tacoma are getting an object lesson in the value of a dollar. As economic dominoes fall in the wake of a municipal minimum wage hike to $15 per hour in Seattle, university students find themselves digging deeper into their pockets to cover higher prices resulting from the mandate.




Elsewhere, small-business employees initially thrilled by the “raise” granted them by the city have since learned that they’ll be losing their jobs later this year. Red Alert Politics reports:


[Z Pizza] owner Ritu Shah Burnham said she just can’t afford the city’s mandated wage hikes.


“I’ve let one person go since April 1, I’ve cut hours since April 1, I’ve taken them myself because I don’t pay myself,” she told Q13. “I’ve also raised my prices a little bit, there’s no other way to do it.”

What's your alternative? Slave wages with no benefits?

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

That only goes so far. If you jack up the min wage you now have to raise wages across the board driving up prices.
You pay oneway or another whether it's through higher prices or gov assistance.
Personally I'd rather not screw up the pay scale.

No, minimum wage increases doesn't necessarily mean across the board hikes in wages. In most businesses their aren't that many people making minimum wage. Employees that are just above minimum wage and working with minimum wage employees may see a small increase. Higher salary employees usually see no raise.

Not true. There are plenty of businesses that only hire min wage workers.
They'll raise prices and the people of seattle will leave the city limits to purchase those goods or they wont frequent them as often.

Give an example of a business you think would have to raise prices.

All fast food joints and any other place that hires teenagers as their main workforce.
I dont frequent fast food joints,but if they raise prices by a couple bucks for the crap food they serve I'll never set foot in one again.
And I know many people who feel the same. I want to see them stay in business when they lose a third of their customers and they have to pay artificially inflated wages.
They'll close in droves.

You know...the very people bitching and moaning about Wal Mart must actually work for wal mart....if they support this minimum wage...why? Because all those mom and pop stores these guys say they love are the ones who will close because they can't pay their workers 15 dollars an hour and stay in business...so who wins.....Wal Mart....who can absorb that cost......dittos any other big business vs. smaller competitors....you guys will drive out the very people you profess to love.............

Yep..and those mom&pop stores dont hire very many people anyway,and the ones they do hire generally get less pay and less benefits than walmart.

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

You could confiscate every dollar the rich posses and it wouldnt make a damn bit of difference.

I must disagree.

It would make a HUGE difference. Countless businesses would close and tens of thousands would become unemployed.

Beware the law of unintended consequences, lefties.

If it werent for unintended consequences liberals wouldnt achieve anything.

 

[pinqy]

I estimated my yearly gross on what the former owner claimed. I did 300% of that and ended up netting about 2%

Not horrible for the first year, but there's not a lot of room to cut costs and competition doesn't allow jacking up prices but maybe 50 cents on a 7 dollar shot.

Do your workers make tips?

No I'm a bastard and I clean out the tip jars and blow it all on fast cars and faster women...

You really are quite limited, aren't you?

Well min wage is much lower for tipped employees...

No, it's not. If paid wages plus tips are less than the state minimum wage, then the employer must make up the difference. the minimum wage is guaranteed.

 

[Mr Natural]

What's your alternative? Slave wages with no benefits?

It's not their alternative, it's their fondest wet dream.

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

The restaurant makes more money with more customers. Wage increases for customers increases sales for the restaurant.

The restaurant makes more money with more customers.

Typically, when you raise prices, you get fewer customers.
You could read an economics book. But then you might realize that liberals are idiots.

If they have more customers they don't need to raise prices. Increasing income of customers makes them go out to eat more often. Hence restaurant sales increase. Try not to get lost.

Is it the job losses among the lower income that will lead to the increasing sales?

There have never been job losses from a minimum wage increase. It has been increased many times and we know this.

Right. WHen wages go from $7.25 to $15.00, why would any sane business owner try to reduce staff? I'm sure the low skilled workers will suddenly double their productivity.

I dont know what it is with liberals and basic math.
Maybe it needs to be put in a manner that they can understand.
Okay liberals lets try this....
Say you get 600 bucks a month on your EBT card and your favorite weed doubles in price? What are you going to do?
Smoke less weed? Smoke cheaper weed? Or go rob a liquor store?

 

[Brain357]

I estimated my yearly gross on what the former owner claimed. I did 300% of that and ended up netting about 2%

Not horrible for the first year, but there's not a lot of room to cut costs and competition doesn't allow jacking up prices but maybe 50 cents on a 7 dollar shot.

Do your workers make tips?

No I'm a bastard and I clean out the tip jars and blow it all on fast cars and faster women...

You really are quite limited, aren't you?

Well min wage is much lower for tipped employees...

No, it's not. If paid wages plus tips are less than the state minimum wage, then the employer must make up the difference. the minimum wage is guaranteed.

The out of pocket for employer is less. Unless the employee gets no tips which seems unheard of. Most of a tipped employee wages come direct from customers.

 

[Brain357]

The restaurant makes more money with more customers.

Typically, when you raise prices, you get fewer customers.
You could read an economics book. But then you might realize that liberals are idiots.

If they have more customers they don't need to raise prices. Increasing income of customers makes them go out to eat more often. Hence restaurant sales increase. Try not to get lost.

Is it the job losses among the lower income that will lead to the increasing sales?

There have never been job losses from a minimum wage increase. It has been increased many times and we know this.

Right. WHen wages go from $7.25 to $15.00, why would any sane business owner try to reduce staff? I'm sure the low skilled workers will suddenly double their productivity.

I dont know what it is with liberals and basic math.
Maybe it needs to be put in a manner that they can understand.
Okay liberals lets try this....
Say you get 600 bucks a month on your EBT card and your favorite weed doubles in price? What are you going to do?
Smoke less weed? Smoke cheaper weed? Or go rob a liquor store?

You seem to ignore that customers are getting an increase just as employees are. That means increased sales.

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

If they have more customers they don't need to raise prices. Increasing income of customers makes them go out to eat more often. Hence restaurant sales increase. Try not to get lost.

Is it the job losses among the lower income that will lead to the increasing sales?

There have never been job losses from a minimum wage increase. It has been increased many times and we know this.

Right. WHen wages go from $7.25 to $15.00, why would any sane business owner try to reduce staff? I'm sure the low skilled workers will suddenly double their productivity.

I dont know what it is with liberals and basic math.
Maybe it needs to be put in a manner that they can understand.
Okay liberals lets try this....
Say you get 600 bucks a month on your EBT card and your favorite weed doubles in price? What are you going to do?
Smoke less weed? Smoke cheaper weed? Or go rob a liquor store?

You seem to ignore that customers are getting an increase just as employees are. That means increased sales.

And what customers would those be?
And you keep on leaving out the part where prices go up leading to less sales to pay the artificial wage hike. And of course those price hikes negate what raise they did get.

 

[pinqy]

I estimated my yearly gross on what the former owner claimed. I did 300% of that and ended up netting about 2%

Not horrible for the first year, but there's not a lot of room to cut costs and competition doesn't allow jacking up prices but maybe 50 cents on a 7 dollar shot.

Do your workers make tips?

No I'm a bastard and I clean out the tip jars and blow it all on fast cars and faster women...

You really are quite limited, aren't you?

Well min wage is much lower for tipped employees...

No, it's not. If paid wages plus tips are less than the state minimum wage, then the employer must make up the difference. the minimum wage is guaranteed.

The out of pocket for employer is less. Unless the employee gets no tips which seems unheard of. Most of a tipped employee wages come direct from customers.

Yes, but the minimum wage is still guaranteed. And there are a few states that don't allow employers to pay less to tipped employees.

 

[Brain357]

Is it the job losses among the lower income that will lead to the increasing sales?

There have never been job losses from a minimum wage increase. It has been increased many times and we know this.

Right. WHen wages go from $7.25 to $15.00, why would any sane business owner try to reduce staff? I'm sure the low skilled workers will suddenly double their productivity.

I dont know what it is with liberals and basic math.
Maybe it needs to be put in a manner that they can understand.
Okay liberals lets try this....
Say you get 600 bucks a month on your EBT card and your favorite weed doubles in price? What are you going to do?
Smoke less weed? Smoke cheaper weed? Or go rob a liquor store?

You seem to ignore that customers are getting an increase just as employees are. That means increased sales.

And what customers would those be?
And you keep on leaving out the part where prices go up leading to less sales to pay the artificial wage hike. And of course those price hikes negate what raise they did get.

What do you mean what customers? Most places that pay min wage have lots of low income customers who will be getting a pay increase. That is more sales which covers increased labor costs so prices don't have to increase.

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

Do your workers make tips?

No I'm a bastard and I clean out the tip jars and blow it all on fast cars and faster women...

You really are quite limited, aren't you?

Well min wage is much lower for tipped employees...

No, it's not. If paid wages plus tips are less than the state minimum wage, then the employer must make up the difference. the minimum wage is guaranteed.

The out of pocket for employer is less. Unless the employee gets no tips which seems unheard of. Most of a tipped employee wages come direct from customers.

Yes, but the minimum wage is still guaranteed. And there are a few states that don't allow employers to pay less to tipped employees.

Add the fact that tipped employees NEVER report the actual amount they receive.
When I bar tended NOBODY reported their actual tips,in fact half was pretty standard.
Damn those tax cheats not paying their fair share!!

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

There have never been job losses from a minimum wage increase. It has been increased many times and we know this.

Right. WHen wages go from $7.25 to $15.00, why would any sane business owner try to reduce staff? I'm sure the low skilled workers will suddenly double their productivity.

I dont know what it is with liberals and basic math.
Maybe it needs to be put in a manner that they can understand.
Okay liberals lets try this....
Say you get 600 bucks a month on your EBT card and your favorite weed doubles in price? What are you going to do?
Smoke less weed? Smoke cheaper weed? Or go rob a liquor store?

You seem to ignore that customers are getting an increase just as employees are. That means increased sales.

And what customers would those be?
And you keep on leaving out the part where prices go up leading to less sales to pay the artificial wage hike. And of course those price hikes negate what raise they did get.

What do you mean what customers? Most places that pay min wage have lots of low income customers who will be getting a pay increase. That is more sales which covers increased labor costs so prices don't have to increase.

So 4.3% of the population is going to make up the difference?

 

[Mac1958]

The naivete (or is it ignorance?) on this topic is stunning.

When wages artificially increase (and they will), the first thing most businesses with a significant amount of lower-wage workers will do is cut hours. They will not increase prices yet. They will obviously slow hiring or only hire people who are willing to work fewer hours. Maybe cut benefits. Then they'll watch for a while and see how this plays out.

If they are still squeezed, the next thing they will do is drop lower-end staff and look at either discovering or purchasing efficiencies, ways to produce more with less.

Only after they have done all of the above will they increase prices to any significant degree.

The workers on the lower end will just have to deal with fewer hours and/or look for a new job. Or they could start their own business. There are only so many moving parts here.

.

We have increased min wage many times. This has never lead to an increase in unemployment.

Link?

.

The Impact of Increasing the Minimum Wage on Unemployment No Evidence of Harm An Economic Sense
Full time workers in minimum wage jobs are poor, despite their evident willingness to work. Even if the minimum wage is raised to $9.00 an hour from the current $7.25 an hour, as Obama has proposed, these working poor will still be earning well less than poverty line income. And bringing the minimum wage to $9.00 an hour will only bring it back to where it was more than a half century ago. Real GDP per capita has more than doubled over this period. Yet minimum wage workers are currently earning 20% less.

Rigorous empirical studies do not show that increasing the minimum wage by an amount such as this will lead to an increase in unemployment of such workers. Nor does one see such an increase in unemployment in a more casual examination of the evidence, such as in the graphs above. While the poor need more assistance than just from this, increasing the minimum wage as Obama has proposed would certainly be an important help.

That's precisely the type of evidence I was expecting, because raw, empirical evidence does not and cannot measure what does not happen. In other words, there is no way to measure cause and effect here, unless you can show me what a business would have done in a different environment.

Business react to higher employee costs in the way I described. They don't just "absorb" the costs - as I keep reading - the money has to come from somewhere, and I described the most likely process. The most obvious example of my point is automation. Like water in a stream, a business has to look for the easiest movement of its cash flow.

I'm not arguing against minimum wage or increases in it. My point is that empirical data completely misses/ignores business psychology, and that's where decisions are often made.

.

You must be joking. So you want to ignore what has actually happened and just stick to your theory even though it is proven wrong by history? Sorry but we have increased minimum wage many times and we know it does not increase unemployment.

You completely ignored my point. That's okay, I'm used to it when dealing with partisans.

I live this stuff 24/7/365. I would not expect someone who does not to understand it.

.