Monte and Shusha Negotiate a Solution

[Shusha]

If we agree, more or less on the two maps in terms of a boundary, I see the contentious issues as being:

Jerusalem (and its holy places)
Hebron (and its holy places)
the Jerusalem-Jericho corridor
the Jordan border area (including some large Jewish neighborhoods there)

 

[Phoenall]

What about the Northern District (Nazareth) where the Arabs are the majority?

How much of it did they steal from Jewish landowners in 1949 ?

 

[Shusha]

How much of it did they steal from Jewish landowners in 1949 ?

Doesn't matter. All the eggs are going to remain broken. This thread is for moving forward, not looking backward.

 

[RoccoR]

Monte and Shusha, et al

In most negotiations, each side has something the other side wants. It has value.

What does the Arab Palestinian have that the Israelis are not going to have invest in all manner of security concerns. Those security concerns and the countermeasures to match them cost money. The Israelis are not going to risk anything unless THE RISK = THE BENEFIT.

The status quo actually does not look all that bad to me... I have not heard a good argument as to why the Israelis would make any agreement with the Arab Palestinians.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[MJB12741]

Monte and Shusha, et al

In most negotiations, each side has something the other side wants. It has value.

What does the Arab Palestinian have that the Israelis are not going to have invest in all manner of security concerns. Those security concerns and the countermeasures to match them cost money. The Israelis are not going to risk anything unless THE RISK = THE BENEFIT.

The status quo actually does not look all that bad to me... I have not heard a good argument as to why the Israelis would make any agreement with the Arab Palestinians.

Most Respectfully,
R

I agree. No peace can be achieved by Israel doing all the giving. When Israel granted the Pali's their Jew free Gaza, Israel was thanked with rocket missiles from terrorist bases. And now the Pali's want Israel to return to the 67 borders & grant the refugees a right of return.??? I don't think so.

 

[MJB12741]

I agree. No peace can be achieved by Israel doing all the giving. When Israel granted the Pali's their Jew free Gaza, Israel was thanked with rocket missiles from terrorist bases. And now the Pali's want Israel to return to the 67 borders & grant the refugees a right of return.??? I don't think so.

 

[montelatici]

Shusa, I'm afraid that most Israelis think like these two clowns. And, the Apartheid state solution is acceptable to most Israelis. They can control the three Bantustans (Gaza, WB and EJ) without much criticism for several more years, maybe decades and keep the non-Jews under subjugation. Eventually of course, given the demographics of the region and within the land controlled by Israel there will be a point at which the Jews will not be able to maintain control, as the Boers found out. At that point the chickens will come home to roost, I'm afraid.

 

[Shusha]

Monte and Shusha, et al

In most negotiations, each side has something the other side wants. It has value.

What does the Arab Palestinian have that the Israelis are not going to have invest in all manner of security concerns. Those security concerns and the countermeasures to match them cost money. The Israelis are not going to risk anything unless THE RISK = THE BENEFIT.

The status quo actually does not look all that bad to me... I have not heard a good argument as to why the Israelis would make any agreement with the Arab Palestinians.

Most Respectfully,
R

Fair question. And I agree that Palestine doesn't have much to offer the Israelis at this point.

Its actually what Israel doesn't want. Israel doesn't want another 4 million Arabs, many of them harbouring hostility towards Israel and Jews IN Israel. Israel also doesn't want another extremist terrorist group like Hamas running the West Bank. And Israel sure doesn't want ISIS taking a joy ride through the West Bank.

Israel also does want its Holy Places. (Before any of you decide to jump on me -- not exclusively).

So the question is whether or not self-determination and co-operation with Israel will benefit the Palestinians enough that it will encourage the moderates (if we can find any) to squash down the extremist elements in their own society. And if the benefit of that outweighs the risks. OR if it is better to maintain tight control over the West Bank and deal with their low level terrorism. Risk vs. benefit there.

 

[Shusha]

Shusa, I'm afraid that most Israelis think like these two clowns. And, the Apartheid state solution is acceptable to most Israelis. They can control the three Bantustans (Gaza, WB and EJ) without much criticism for several more years, maybe decades and keep the non-Jews under subjugation. Eventually of course, given the demographics of the region and within the land controlled by Israel there will be a point at which the Jews will not be able to maintain control, as the Boers found out. At that point the chickens will come home to roost, I'm afraid.

The concern for me would be that extremism takes hold in the West Bank. And the question is how best to avoid that. I think you have a valid point that offering up some perceived justice might go a long way to reducing that risk. The question is whether or not the justice is best served in the form of a bi-national state or two states or letting the "status quo" drift for a few more decades.

Israel really does have the choice in the matter. She holds the cards. So which is the least risky proposition?

 

[Shusha]

Eventually of course, given the demographics of the region and within the land controlled by Israel there will be a point at which the Jews will not be able to maintain control

Actually, there are some convincing arguments that this is not the case -- that the demographics favor the Jews in Israel and in any land they would choose to annex.

 

[montelatici]

You know that is just wishful thinking unless American Jews (the last large Diaspora population) decide to migrate en masse. Already non-Jews outnumber Jews and the gap is growing.

"Comparing the annual Rosh Hashanah population report from Israel’s Central Bureau of Statistics, released September 2, with the midyear (July 1) population figures for the West Bank and Gaza in the CIA World Factbook, it turns out that Jews are now (as of Rosh Hashanah) outnumbered by Arabs under Israeli sovereignty by a grand total of 50,827. So the question is no longer whether or when the Jewish state will feature a minority ruling a majority. The question now is what to do about it."
Jews Now Minority in Israel and Territories

 

[Shusha]

Yes, but that assumes Israel will have to contend with all of the Arabs of the West Bank and Gaza under Israeli rule. Not going to happen at this rate.

 

[Phoenall]

How much of it did they steal from Jewish landowners in 1949 ?

Doesn't matter. All the eggs are going to remain broken. This thread is for moving forward, not looking backward.

Until the arab muslims start demanding what was never theirs, and threatening violence if they dont get it. What no one is doing is looking at the attitude and mental processes of the arab muslim, the same mistake we made in WW2 with the Japanese. That is why so many POW's were treated as slaves and pariah's because the Japanese have no concept of surrender and fair treatment.

 

[Phoenall]

Shusa, I'm afraid that most Israelis think like these two clowns. And, the Apartheid state solution is acceptable to most Israelis. They can control the three Bantustans (Gaza, WB and EJ) without much criticism for several more years, maybe decades and keep the non-Jews under subjugation. Eventually of course, given the demographics of the region and within the land controlled by Israel there will be a point at which the Jews will not be able to maintain control, as the Boers found out. At that point the chickens will come home to roost, I'm afraid.

You just lost the argument and all credibility by resorting to your claims of apartheid and bantustans when the argument is being taken away from you. As for demographics why has it failed since 1948, because the arab muslims will always be outnumbered by the Jews. Even with a 1 million to 1 advantage the arab muslims are outnumbered because they dont have the mental capacity to use the advantage.


STOP GOING OF TOPIC EVERY TIME YOU START LOSING THE ARGUMENT AND USING SOUTH AFRICA

 

[Phoenall]

You know that is just wishful thinking unless American Jews (the last large Diaspora population) decide to migrate en masse. Already non-Jews outnumber Jews and the gap is growing.

"Comparing the annual Rosh Hashanah population report from Israel’s Central Bureau of Statistics, released September 2, with the midyear (July 1) population figures for the West Bank and Gaza in the CIA World Factbook, it turns out that Jews are now (as of Rosh Hashanah) outnumbered by Arabs under Israeli sovereignty by a grand total of 50,827. So the question is no longer whether or when the Jewish state will feature a minority ruling a majority. The question now is what to do about it."
Jews Now Minority in Israel and Territories

Not in Israel they dont and the Jews will defend Israel with all their might. The arab muslims will kill each other in the process of getting to Israel and the numbers will drop in the process. Forget the west bank and gaza as they are not part of Israel, they are not bantustans or any other word you want to use, they are lands illegally occupied by arab muslims. But do explain how it is that the arab muslims ( the force that the "palestinians" are just a tiny part of ) that outnumber the Jews 1 million to one and they have failed to make an impact on the Jews. In 1948 when they had the upper hand they faced a rag tag army of farmers and housEwives and were beaten back and humiliated. The same in 1967 and 1973, proving that your demographics claims are just smoke and mirrors.


AND ISRAEL DOES NOT RULE THE WEST BANK AND GAZA, THEY ONLY OCCUPY PARTS OF THE WEST BANK UNDER THE TERMS OF INTERNATIONAL LAW. GAZA IS FREE OF ALL ISRAELI OCCUPATION AND IS ABLE TO SHOW SELF DETERMINATION

 

[montelatici]

Yes, but that assumes Israel will have to contend with all of the Arabs of the West Bank and Gaza under Israeli rule. Not going to happen at this rate.

Even so, take away the 1.7 million of Gaza and what do you get, another generation or two of Jewish of a slight Jewish majority?

 

[Phoenall]

Yes, but that assumes Israel will have to contend with all of the Arabs of the West Bank and Gaza under Israeli rule. Not going to happen at this rate.

Even so, take away the 1.7 million of Gaza and what do you get, another generation or two of Jewish of a slight Jewish majority?

And still it wont work as the Jews are not as stuoid as the arab muslims or you and will make provisions to counter such actions

 

[Shusha]

Yes, but that assumes Israel will have to contend with all of the Arabs of the West Bank and Gaza under Israeli rule. Not going to happen at this rate.

Even so, take away the 1.7 million of Gaza and what do you get, another generation or two of Jewish of a slight Jewish majority?

Well, assuming that Israel takes in all of the West Bank and none of the refugees, the birthrates are evening out, and will probably continue to do so. It would probably be a slight Jewish majority for some time. But none of this is established yet.

Did we come up with a solution for Northern Israel?

 

[montelatici]

No, we were interrupted by troublemakers. The Northern District has a slight Arab majority, it's probably 55% Arab. Again, though I think a two-state solution is not viable, from an historical perspective it could be made a semi-autonomous region, like Trentino-Alto Adige (Sud Tirol) in Italy.

 

[Shusha]

No, we were interrupted by troublemakers. The Northern District has a slight Arab majority, it's probably 55% Arab. Again, though I think a two-state solution is not viable, from an historical perspective it could be made a semi-autonomous region, like Trentino-Alto Adige (Sud Tirol) in Italy.

I think its higher than 55% in some neighborhoods. The problem is that those neighborhoods are not contiguous with the rest of Palestine.

We could just have them remain as part of Israel, unless you feel the need for more square footage due to Israel taking areas like Ma'ale Adumim and Gush Etzion. Or a referendum for that area? Or a build a corridor or private road?