MN Faces Idea Of Lower Drinking Age, Again

[Agnapostate]

There are exceptions to everything, but in general, youths tend to have poorer judgment than adults. Part of that is just lack of life experience.

That's still not a causative link to age itself; that's just a consequence of the infantilization of youth caused through the social construct of adolescence.

 

[random3434]

Actually, I think age can affect driving skills, although, that would be in the other direction. Some of the worst drivers on the road are the elderly.

I suppose that's a valid point, considering that reflexes reach their highest point during youth.

More of the issue with young drivers is their lack of judgment more so than a lack of skill.

I've seen no evidence that that's causatively linked to youth either.

There are exceptions to everything, but in general, youths tend to have poorer judgment than adults. Part of that is just lack of life experience.

Off Topic, but:

How many states have outlawed texting while driving? I can't believe it's not a National Law!

And teens aren't the only ones I see doing this!

 

[Agnapostate]

That's a more legitimate concern, but the mass media and the punditry are insistent on peddling biased slanders about alleged youth calamities, and the political mainstream is entirely willing to cater to their whims.

 

[alan1]

There are exceptions to everything, but in general, youths tend to have poorer judgment than adults. Part of that is just lack of life experience.

That's still not a causative link to age itself; that's just a consequence of the infantilization of youth caused through the social construct of adolescence.

I'll agree with you, it's probably not causative. However, I still think my point stands (as a general statement).

I personally started treating my own children similar to the way I treated adults about the time they reached 12 years of age. I found no reason to treat them as children at that point, and it paid off, they are both now responsible adults with excellent critical thinking skills.

 

[Agnapostate]

I'll agree with you, it's probably not causative. However, I still think my point stands (as a general statement).

I'll re-post something I wrote in another thread in regards to that:

My contention is that, contrary to popular belief, the commonly accepted claim that adolescents are incapable of exercising rational judgment abilities is not an indisputably correct one. Supporters of this position frequently cite studies conducted with the use of magnetic resonance imaging or functional magnetic resonance imaging that illustrate that the teenage brain is “underdeveloped,” and that adolescents are thus often incapable of making rational or well informed decisions about significant issues. Yet, as Dr. Robert Epstein, former editor of Psychology Today, notes in an article published in Scientific American Mind, thought there is some semblance of a correlation between adolescence and brain development illustrated in these scans, there is no evidence of causation by a natural stage of adolescence. His chief counter-argument references the fact that adolescents have been severely infantilized in modern society, in contrast to the important adult role they played in past times, and it may be this factor that has led to the lack of brain development so commonly assumed to be a natural byproduct of adolescence. As such, it would not be intellectually honest to declare the infallibility of these scans just yet.

There are several studies that have been conducted on the basis of measuring the actual competency of adolescents to make informed decisions, as opposed to highly speculative guesswork based on snapshots of the brain.

An important one is that of Lois A. Weithorn and Susan B. Campbell, which tested four groups of people, aged 9, 14, 18, and 21. The study, entitled The Competency of Children and Adolescents to Make Informed Treatment Decisions, came to the conclusion that 14 year olds were capable of making medical decisions with a level of competence equivalent to that of legal adults. As partially summarized by Weithorn and Campbell:

"In general, minors aged 14 were found to demonstrate a level of competency equivalent to that of adults, according to four standards of competency (evidence of choice, reasonable outcome, rational reasons, and understanding), and for four hypothetical dilemmas (diabetes, epilepsy, depression and enuresis.)…The findings of this research do not lend support to policies which deny adolescents the right of self-determination in treatment situations on the basis of a presumption of incapacity to provide informed consent. The ages of eighteen or twenty-one as the “cutoffs” below which individuals are presumed to be incompetent to make determinations about their own welfare do not reflect the psychological capacities of most adolescents."

The earlier study of researchers Grisso and Vierling, Minors’ Consent to Treatment: A Developmental Perspective, came to a similar conclusion, the authors stating that “existing evidence provides no legal assumption that minors aged 15 years and above cannot provide competent consent.”

Researchers Bruce Ambuel and Julian Rappaport discovered similar results in a study intended to specifically focus on this topic, entitled Developmental trends in adolescents' psychological and legal competence to consent to abortion. The study confirmed the fact that the rational judgment and decision making capacities of adolescents, (particularly those at or beyond mid-adolescence), were often on par with those of adults.

In a wide-ranging review of the developmental literature on adolescents’ abilities to make rational decisions about medical treatment, researchers Kuther and Posada confirmed that, “the literature in developmental psychology has shown that adolescents are able to make meaningful decisions and advocates for youth have argued that researchers must respect the autonomy rights of children and adolescents,” thus confirming the legitimacy and validity of the previous studies to a great degree.

I personally started treating my own children similar to the way I treated adults about the time they reached 12 years of age. I found no reason to treat them as children at that point, and it paid off, they are both now responsible adults with excellent critical thinking skills.

I'm glad to hear it. We could all stand to benefit from adopting similar courses of action.

 

[pete]

The gov't will take away their highway funding if they do this.

Then in 3 ... 5 or what ever the number of years ends up being the government will pay 3 ... 5 times the amount to bring them back up so although its a strong arm tactic it doesn't help.

 

[pete]

I suppose that's a valid point, considering that reflexes reach their highest point during youth.



I've seen no evidence that that's causatively linked to youth either.

There are exceptions to everything, but in general, youths tend to have poorer judgment than adults. Part of that is just lack of life experience.

Off Topic, but:

How many states have outlawed texting while driving? I can't believe it's not a National Law!

And teens aren't the only ones I see doing this!

Small dogs on laps ...

 

[auditor0007]

One thing that would not be good is to have only certain states reduce the drinking age. That would cause younger people to travel out of state to drink, and then try to drive home. This happened a lot when the drinking age was 18 in Wisconsin but 21 in Illinois. Come the weekends, you'd have thousands of 18 year olds driving to Wisconsin to get drunk, then drive back home to Chicago.

 

[Agnapostate]

That's the consequence of this federal guideline. It should be repealed.

 

[Avatar4321]

I dont care what age they put it to. Neither I nor my children are going to be drinking.

 

[Agnapostate]

Then neither you nor your children are going to be receving the health benefits that moderate alcohol consumption brings.

 

[Avatar4321]

Then neither you nor your children are going to be receving the health benefits that moderate alcohol consumption brings.

Yeah, we will just be living on average 10 years longer than the rest of you.

 

[jgbkab]

Then neither you nor your children are going to be receving the health benefits that moderate alcohol consumption brings.

Yeah, we will just be living on average 10 years longer than the rest of you.

So as long as you live longer, it doesn't matter the quality of life? If I'm suffering and in pain for 10 years of my life, me and God are going to have a talk.

 

[Zoom-boing]

The human brain is not fully developed until into the twenties. Lowering the drinking age to 18 is asking for trouble - now and possibly down the road. It's a mistake and I hope those in charge will actually look at the serious consequences of lowering the drinking age.

Underage Drinking and Its Effect on the Brain

"Recent research shows that the brain continues to develop well beyond childhood — and throughout adolescence. This research raises concerns that underage drinking may affect short-term and long-term cognitive functioning, and may change the brain in ways that can lead to future alcohol dependence." – Former Acting Surgeon General Kenneth P. Moritsugu, M.D., M.P.H.

The brain is still developing in to the early 20s and alcohol use impedes that important progress, possibly irreparably.
We must work to make sure that alcohol can not get into the hands of youth.

Adolescent brain development
Research has shown that the brain continues to develop into the early twenties. (Kuhn, Swartzwelder, and Wilson, 1998; White, 2001; Giedd, et al, 1999; Giedd, 2004) The pre-frontal cortex, the part that controls reasoning and cognitive ability takes the longest to mature. This is why drinking, especially heavy drinking, before the brain finishes development affects memory and damages this pre-frontal cortex regions (Crews et al. 2000; Spear and Varlinskaya 2005; White and Swartzwelder 2005). Since this region is responsible for ability to learn complex tasks, control impulses and organizing, this is a significant loss. And, while the research on this is still in its early phases, there are some studies that indicate that this damage may be permanent. (Brown and Tapert, 2004)

- Mothers Against Drunk Driving - Parents

 

[Agnapostate]

The human brain is not fully developed until into the twenties. Lowering the drinking age to 18 is asking for trouble - now and possibly down the road. It's a mistake and I hope those in charge will actually look at the serious consequences of lowering the drinking age.

Underage Drinking and Its Effect on the Brain

"Recent research shows that the brain continues to develop well beyond childhood — and throughout adolescence. This research raises concerns that underage drinking may affect short-term and long-term cognitive functioning, and may change the brain in ways that can lead to future alcohol dependence." – Former Acting Surgeon General Kenneth P. Moritsugu, M.D., M.P.H.

The brain is still developing in to the early 20s and alcohol use impedes that important progress, possibly irreparably.
We must work to make sure that alcohol can not get into the hands of youth.

Adolescent brain development
Research has shown that the brain continues to develop into the early twenties. (Kuhn, Swartzwelder, and Wilson, 1998; White, 2001; Giedd, et al, 1999; Giedd, 2004) The pre-frontal cortex, the part that controls reasoning and cognitive ability takes the longest to mature. This is why drinking, especially heavy drinking, before the brain finishes development affects memory and damages this pre-frontal cortex regions (Crews et al. 2000; Spear and Varlinskaya 2005; White and Swartzwelder 2005). Since this region is responsible for ability to learn complex tasks, control impulses and organizing, this is a significant loss. And, while the research on this is still in its early phases, there are some studies that indicate that this damage may be permanent. (Brown and Tapert, 2004)

- Mothers Against Drunk Driving - Parents

Actually, the conclusions about harm caused to the "adolescent brain" are essentially based on studies of adolescent rats and severe alcohol abusers: "Drinking Alcohol Damages Teenagers’ Brains"

What's more, the rats in the study were given about 5 grams of alcohol per aboud 1000 grams of body weight, which amounts to about 6 beers for a human. A case of beer is obviously not a valid example of moderate alcohol consumption. (Incidentally, the rats were also starved for about 12 hours prior to the administration of alcohol, which obviously increases their metabolism of the alcohol.) Nor are severe alcohol abusers reliable test subjects.

But if you consider the rat studies valid, you should note that the adolescent rats were able to resist alcohol's sedating effects better than the adult rats were.

 

[Agnapostate]

Anyway; saw the 60 minutes report just now. It was good.

 

[KittenKoder]

I dont care what age they put it to. Neither I nor my children are going to be drinking.

Never say never ...

 

[KittenKoder]

The human brain is not fully developed until into the twenties. Lowering the drinking age to 18 is asking for trouble - now and possibly down the road. It's a mistake and I hope those in charge will actually look at the serious consequences of lowering the drinking age.

Underage Drinking and Its Effect on the Brain

"Recent research shows that the brain continues to develop well beyond childhood — and throughout adolescence. This research raises concerns that underage drinking may affect short-term and long-term cognitive functioning, and may change the brain in ways that can lead to future alcohol dependence." – Former Acting Surgeon General Kenneth P. Moritsugu, M.D., M.P.H.

The brain is still developing in to the early 20s and alcohol use impedes that important progress, possibly irreparably.
We must work to make sure that alcohol can not get into the hands of youth.

Adolescent brain development
Research has shown that the brain continues to develop into the early twenties. (Kuhn, Swartzwelder, and Wilson, 1998; White, 2001; Giedd, et al, 1999; Giedd, 2004) The pre-frontal cortex, the part that controls reasoning and cognitive ability takes the longest to mature. This is why drinking, especially heavy drinking, before the brain finishes development affects memory and damages this pre-frontal cortex regions (Crews et al. 2000; Spear and Varlinskaya 2005; White and Swartzwelder 2005). Since this region is responsible for ability to learn complex tasks, control impulses and organizing, this is a significant loss. And, while the research on this is still in its early phases, there are some studies that indicate that this damage may be permanent. (Brown and Tapert, 2004)

- Mothers Against Drunk Driving - Parents

Actually, the conclusions about harm caused to the "adolescent brain" are essentially based on studies of adolescent rats and severe alcohol abusers: "Drinking Alcohol Damages Teenagers’ Brains"

What's more, the rats in the study were given about 5 grams of alcohol per aboud 1000 grams of body weight, which amounts to about 6 beers for a human. A case of beer is obviously not a valid example of moderate alcohol consumption. (Incidentally, the rats were also starved for about 12 hours prior to the administration of alcohol, which obviously increases their metabolism of the alcohol.) Nor are severe alcohol abusers reliable test subjects.

But if you consider the rat studies valid, you should note that the adolescent rats were able to resist alcohol's sedating effects better than the adult rats were.

Anti-drinking groups like to make stuff up, just like all the other anti- groups (anti-smoking, anti-pot, etc).

 

[dilloduck]

The human brain is not fully developed until into the twenties. Lowering the drinking age to 18 is asking for trouble - now and possibly down the road. It's a mistake and I hope those in charge will actually look at the serious consequences of lowering the drinking age.

Underage Drinking and Its Effect on the Brain

"Recent research shows that the brain continues to develop well beyond childhood — and throughout adolescence. This research raises concerns that underage drinking may affect short-term and long-term cognitive functioning, and may change the brain in ways that can lead to future alcohol dependence." – Former Acting Surgeon General Kenneth P. Moritsugu, M.D., M.P.H.

The brain is still developing in to the early 20s and alcohol use impedes that important progress, possibly irreparably.
We must work to make sure that alcohol can not get into the hands of youth.

Adolescent brain development
Research has shown that the brain continues to develop into the early twenties. (Kuhn, Swartzwelder, and Wilson, 1998; White, 2001; Giedd, et al, 1999; Giedd, 2004) The pre-frontal cortex, the part that controls reasoning and cognitive ability takes the longest to mature. This is why drinking, especially heavy drinking, before the brain finishes development affects memory and damages this pre-frontal cortex regions (Crews et al. 2000; Spear and Varlinskaya 2005; White and Swartzwelder 2005). Since this region is responsible for ability to learn complex tasks, control impulses and organizing, this is a significant loss. And, while the research on this is still in its early phases, there are some studies that indicate that this damage may be permanent. (Brown and Tapert, 2004)

- Mothers Against Drunk Driving - Parents

Actually, the conclusions about harm caused to the "adolescent brain" are essentially based on studies of adolescent rats and severe alcohol abusers: "Drinking Alcohol Damages Teenagers’ Brains"

What's more, the rats in the study were given about 5 grams of alcohol per aboud 1000 grams of body weight, which amounts to about 6 beers for a human. A case of beer is obviously not a valid example of moderate alcohol consumption. (Incidentally, the rats were also starved for about 12 hours prior to the administration of alcohol, which obviously increases their metabolism of the alcohol.) Nor are severe alcohol abusers reliable test subjects.

But if you consider the rat studies valid, you should note that the adolescent rats were able to resist alcohol's sedating effects better than the adult rats were.

Drink up---we need your tax money. May as well start early.

 

[Zoom-boing]

Just because a person reaches the age of 18 and is considered an adult does not mean that their brains are 'adult'. Much change and growth takes place between the ages of 18-25 or so. In light of this, lowering the drinking age to 18 from 21 would be a huge mistake, imo.

Catalyst: Teen Brain - ABC TV Science