Minimum Wage

[oldfart]

I tried to convey that very thought to someone a little while ago and got a nasty PM. It amazes me that people don't understand that concept. No one is going to pay you extra because you think you deserve it. They are going to pay you the value you bring to their business.

Another thing is being willing to work for free to gain experience. Internships and donating time can add up to extra $$ when going for a new job.

I have to disagree here. First, no business will pay any worker more than the value of their labor, but businesses make money by paying workers LESS than the value of their labor. In a perfectly competitive labor market, everyone would get pretty close to the value of their labor, but labor markets are not competitive, they are monopsonistic. The less power unions and labor has, the less the portion of the value of their labor will be received as wages.

The marked increase in income inequality in the United States tracks remarkably well with the decline of unions and the increasing concentration of certain industries. The small shopkeeper is gone, replaced by Walmart. Smaller construction firms are being driven out of business by larger firms who can negotiate better deals on materials and insurance. Economic concentration is no longer primarily industrial. There really is no lower limit to wages in an industry dominated by one or a few firms other than the Malthusian limit. Do you really want to live in a society where 95% of the population will have a declining standard of living over decades?

The recent trend of uncompensated "interns" is a good example of this principal. States are busting firms that have replaced workers with unpaid "interns" and then not even covered them with Workers Compensation. The insurance carriers are refusing claims and the trial lawyers are licking their chops. The businesses were too dumb to realize that WC laws favor the employer as they give immunity from civil claims. Now they get to have their asses sued and have far more liability than they would have under WC laws. The fact that the workers were unpaid makes it look a lot worse to a jury, and the insurers are not liable for the costs of defense. These smart businessmen fail to understand that when they get cute, they own the results. But hell, they declare bankruptcy and "go out of business" to be replaced by another LLC. When they find that executives of employers are personally liable for WC, I hope they have a nice new country picked out. Internships have turned into an illegal and ethically reprehensible scam.

Yes, I have used interns. All of them were paid the prevailing rate for their work time, which was always above minimum wage. I turned in grade reports and evaluations so they got appropriate academic credit and insured that they were receiving a learning experience. That's what internships are supposed to be, not a way to replace workers.

 

[Asclepias]

I tried to convey that very thought to someone a little while ago and got a nasty PM. It amazes me that people don't understand that concept. No one is going to pay you extra because you think you deserve it. They are going to pay you the value you bring to their business.

Another thing is being willing to work for free to gain experience. Internships and donating time can add up to extra $$ when going for a new job.

I have to disagree here. First, no business will pay any worker more than the value of their labor, but businesses make money by paying workers LESS than the value of their labor. In a perfectly competitive labor market, everyone would get pretty close to the value of their labor, but labor markets are not competitive, they are monopsonistic. The less power unions and labor has, the less the portion of the value of their labor will be received as wages.

The marked increase in income inequality in the United States tracks remarkably well with the decline of unions and the increasing concentration of certain industries. The small shopkeeper is gone, replaced by Walmart. Smaller construction firms are being driven out of business by larger firms who can negotiate better deals on materials and insurance. Economic concentration is no longer primarily industrial. There really is no lower limit to wages in an industry dominated by one or a few firms other than the Malthusian limit. Do you really want to live in a society where 95% of the population will have a declining standard of living over decades?

The recent trend of uncompensated "interns" is a good example of this principal. States are busting firms that have replaced workers with unpaid "interns" and then not even covered them with Workers Compensation. The insurance carriers are refusing claims and the trial lawyers are licking their chops. The businesses were too dumb to realize that WC laws favor the employer as they give immunity from civil claims. Now they get to have their asses sued and have far more liability than they would have under WC laws. The fact that the workers were unpaid makes it look a lot worse to a jury, and the insurers are not liable for the costs of defense. These smart businessmen fail to understand that when they get cute, they own the results. But hell, they declare bankruptcy and "go out of business" to be replaced by another LLC. When they find that executives of employers are personally liable for WC, I hope they have a nice new country picked out. Internships have turned into an illegal and ethically reprehensible scam.

Yes, I have used interns. All of them were paid the prevailing rate for their work time, which was always above minimum wage. I turned in grade reports and evaluations so they got appropriate academic credit and insured that they were receiving a learning experience. That's what internships are supposed to be, not a way to replace workers.

You have some very valid points. There is good and bad in every system. There are companies that pay what they should and there are companies that pay you just enough so you wont quit in order to bolster their profit margin. i believe this is were getting educated about the prevailing wage market for your particular job can help you make a decision to stay at these types of companies or leave for better pay.

Bravo to you for paying your interns. I just dont agree with it. I had not thought about the legal climate when I made that statement. So I will amend it to working after hours without requesting more pay.

 

[Two Thumbs]

I've served tables at a higher end restaurant that paid minimum wage plus tips, and currently i work as CNA shift lead in women's services at a hospital, and i make $9.10 an hour.

I think minimum wage has short term benefits but long term negative affects. Long term: companies will cut jobs and scale back services to save money, or prices will rise ultimately leading to inflation. Therefore, I am torn because i don't feel that workers deserve to be exploited, but I also understand that market economics have demonstrated that controlled wages do more harm in the long run. Most people only work low wage jobs through highschool and college. When I graduate next year in May, I will be making $40 to 60,000 a year starting salary as an RN. The same applies to the majority of low income wage earners.

I think you are missing the fair trade/tree trade effects on American wages.

I was in College doing post grad work and needed money so I took a high paid job in a warehouse lifting heavy objects and I igured I could make more there rather than doing research in a lab,,,and I liked lifting heavy objects.

I waas grandfathered in when they cut the wages pretty severely and the amount the company spent on training new employees because of the high turnover became a major problem ot the company and the quality of work went way down and the theft went way up and I ended up spending my time in meetings representing workers and resolving labor and discrimination disputes, a waste of my strong back.

$15/hr is not unreasonable. Wage earners are also consumers and that makes America strong.

I wasn't insulting you.

I listen to npr omw to work, and they were actually defending nafta.

laughed so hard at the bs they used I nearly died

 

[Two Thumbs]

We used to have immigrant workers that did jobs like crop picking for $2.00 an hour, when the minimum wage was $5.00 an hour. The cons got rid of those workers so that farmers had to pay minimum wage to American workers. So now American farmers can't compete with South American farmers, because those farmers pay 50cents an hour, and can charge less than half for their food. And those American workers can't do the job half as good, even getting three times the pay.

But the cons have created a banana republic job market. And they want to destroy the minimum wage, so they can get Americans to work for 50cents an hour.

wow

Not a single truth was told.

Not even close

 

[Two Thumbs]

I had a job as a summer camp counselor when I was 14 the pay was garbage and I have opened up my first tax/bookkeeping type business to augment lousy pay. Turned out to be the best thing I have ever done in my life. I did books for gas stations and mom-and-pop stores and I got other clients from the bars they were not the most responsible people in the world. That experience taught me a great many things including perseverance, thinking outside the box and having a positive attitude looking towards success.

Not everyone had your good fortune, skills, or ambition. There are some not so intelligent people out there and they, and more importantly, their kids, deserve the simple comforts and opportunities that a fair waged job provides. Poverty produces all kinds of social ills that you and I are going to pay for one way or another.

I made very good money too but when I watch my child and his friends struggling as they exercise their independence and make their way in the world it breaks my heart. They have their pride and deserve it.

there will always be poor people b/c there has always been poor people.

my ex is on welfare and has been for 13 years, even went to college, on our dime, but made sure the job didn't pay enough to be ejected from welfare. We also pay for her to live in a house with yard.

She's considered poor

 

[alan1]

I just don't understand why republican are so stupid as to not get on top of the min wage issue. They are letting dems box them in a corner again and there is no need for this. Was watching cnn(forgive me please) and the optics of a clueless Grover nor quits and a flame throwing librard is depressing. I say again I could turn this pr debacle around in a heartbeat and I can't be the smartest person in the world. Look for nor the min wage is not the total a business pays for employees there are payroll taxes for one, work men's comp, and unemployment insurance. But the bigger deal is for republican to come up with their own plans to address the issue, or you will forever be in the quicksand of not caring for the poor. Just come up with a damn plan. I can come up with one in one minute. As I posted earlier, pick a number, say 10 dollars an hour but make but make anyone getting min wage immune from employer and employee taxes. Therefore workers would get to take home more in ral terms and the extra employers have to pay goes to the worker and not the govt. the workers win and the business wins. How hard is it to support such a simple plan that shows you care. I am so tired of being a conservative having to follow the Pygmy brains of Washington and the national party. Almost every issue has a myriad of simple solutions but we have fossilized thinkers at the top. It is time to clean house. Lead, follow, or get out of the way

Your solution is for the government to get more involved (in your case, the republicans). The thing is, the government is already involved and it isn't working. The government has a really long track record of making things bad enough that they have to keep altering the laws to fix what they already broke.

 

[alan1]

After reading some of the arrogant and condensending responses here it is no wonder that low paid workers spit on your cheeseburgers.

According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, last year 1.566 million hourly workers earned the federal minimum of $7.25 an hour; nearly two million more earned less than that because they fell under one of several exemptions (tipped employees, full-time students, certain disabled workers and others), for a total of 3.55 million hourly workers at or below the federal minimum.

Who makes minimum wage? | Pew Research Center

Your linked article says that represents 2.8% of all workers. I'd hardly call 2.8% of any demographic a crisis, or a problem or an issue. It is statistically insignificant in the concept of wages so why is government intervention needed?

 

[alan1]

After reading some of the arrogant and condensending responses here it is no wonder that low paid workers spit on your cheeseburgers.

According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, last year 1.566 million hourly workers earned the federal minimum of $7.25 an hour; nearly two million more earned less than that because they fell under one of several exemptions (tipped employees, full-time students, certain disabled workers and others), for a total of 3.55 million hourly workers at or below the federal minimum.

Who makes minimum wage? | Pew Research Center

I find it interesting how the minimum wage debate, however superficial and pointless it may be in terms of policy, brings out the moralistic differences between the 'get a job' conservatives and the 'bleeding heart' liberals. Both sides seem preoccupied with what people 'deserve'. I guess I've just never seen wages in those terms. Wages reflect how valuable a given job is to society. Not much more to it than that.

Or how valuable a given job is to the individual at the moment.
If my toilet can't be flushed, a plumber is lot more valuable to me at that moment than a doctor. Regardless of that specific moment, doctors are generally more valuable to me.

 

[dreolin]

After reading some of the arrogant and condensending responses here it is no wonder that low paid workers spit on your cheeseburgers.



Who makes minimum wage? | Pew Research Center

I find it interesting how the minimum wage debate, however superficial and pointless it may be in terms of policy, brings out the moralistic differences between the 'get a job' conservatives and the 'bleeding heart' liberals. Both sides seem preoccupied with what people 'deserve'. I guess I've just never seen wages in those terms. Wages reflect how valuable a given job is to society. Not much more to it than that.

I tried to convey that very thought to someone a little while ago and got a nasty PM. It amazes me that people don't understand that concept. No one is going to pay you extra because you think you deserve it. They are going to pay you the value you bring to their business.
Another thing is being willing to work for free to gain experience. Internships and donating time can add up to extra $$ when going for a new job.

It sounds like the both of you (Asclepias and dblack) are sort of in a "pay what the labor market can bear" camp but, when it comes to American labor, I think you are ignoring a very big piece of the puzzle, and that is the effect of free trade. We are dealing with some very complex issues but I think, for this forum, it is best to keep it as simple and basic as possible. So I will make a very simple and factual statement and ask a couple of questions.

Ralph Lauren made a very good financial decision and, using donations from American workers and corporations, our United States Olympic athletes marched out in front of the world with uniforms made in China.

How did that make you feel?

Had those athletes decided not to wear those uniforms and buy Wrangler jeans, Pendleton shirts, Filson jackets and etc. would you have supported them?

Admittedly, this was pretty high profile news but it is illustrative of at least part of the problem and I think a big part. Every day, American workers, your neighbors, are losing their jobs and having to work for lower wages because they are being forced to compete with countries with sub-standard labor practices.

I think American workers DESERVE fair wages and work place protection. There is a lot more than the bottom line and that ol' "pie in the sky" thing won't feed hungry children.

I think we need to look or real solutions without selling our brothers and sisters out for tools that break and clothes that fall apart.

 

[dreolin]

After reading some of the arrogant and condensending responses here it is no wonder that low paid workers spit on your cheeseburgers.



Who makes minimum wage? | Pew Research Center

I find it interesting how the minimum wage debate, however superficial and pointless it may be in terms of policy, brings out the moralistic differences between the 'get a job' conservatives and the 'bleeding heart' liberals. Both sides seem preoccupied with what people 'deserve'. I guess I've just never seen wages in those terms. Wages reflect how valuable a given job is to society. Not much more to it than that.

Or how valuable a given job is to the individual at the moment.
If my toilet can't be flushed, a plumber is lot more valuable to me at that moment than a doctor. Regardless of that specific moment, doctors are generally more valuable to me.

There is a current trend beginning towards seeking medical treatment out of country and combining it with a vacation.

Your plumbing pretty much has to stay at home.

I would hate to see the day come when a child aspires to be a Doctor and his parents encouraage him to become a plumber instead, not that there is anything wrong with plumbers at all. It would also be a shame that a kid who might want to be a plumber is channeled into the medical field because it pays so well.

 

[HenryBHough]

More likely a child who'd like to become a plumber or pilot or pig farmer shows the slightest aptitude for anything medical and is forced into a government-run medical school in order to meet the quota for such occupations. You really don't think that can happen?

 

[initforme]

Never worked for minimum wage. Its for dupes. Working for someone else's business is a complete waste of time. Working for your own business is the way to go. Why would you want to help make someone else rich when you can do it for yourself?

 

[alan1]

There is a current trend beginning towards seeking medical treatment out of country and combining it with a vacation.

Your plumbing pretty much has to stay at home.

I would hate to see the day come when a child aspires to be a Doctor and his parents encouraage him to become a plumber instead, not that there is anything wrong with plumbers at all. It would also be a shame that a kid who might want to be a plumber is channeled into the medical field because it pays so well.

At times, parents guide their children, it's what parents do. Mine wanted me to be a court lawyer because I was so argumentative as a young boy and I kept them on their best defenses.

We're diverging from the OP, but that's ok.

 

[Casjah]

It's the asinine concept that the poor must be cared for. Why? Are they helpless? Are they household pets? Animals in a zoo are cared for. The entire nation cannot be turned into the caretakers of the poor.

I totally understand your point. But my concern are the children who didn't ask to be born to parents who cannot provide for them. Therefore, it is humane to have a safety net for them at least.

 

[Pop23]

Never worked for minimum wage. Its for dupes. Working for someone else's business is a complete waste of time. Working for your own business is the way to go. Why would you want to help make someone else rich when you can do it for yourself?

Sorry you consider me, and many others dupes.

When you're raised in near poverty, your choices are pretty limited

Some of my best memories were of the parties after closing time

Them dupes threw one Hell of a kegger!

 

[Indeependent]

More likely a child who'd like to become a plumber or pilot or pig farmer shows the slightest aptitude for anything medical and is forced into a government-run medical school in order to meet the quota for such occupations. You really don't think that can happen?

Don't worry; by the time both parties vote for S744 and HR2131, no non-Indian in the US will have a job or a career.
Of course, the Republicans will only vote for Immigration Reform when a Republican wins the White House.
Let's see...about 100 years from now?

And yes, Marco Rubio is COMPLETELY in favor of these bills.

 

[Asclepias]

I find it interesting how the minimum wage debate, however superficial and pointless it may be in terms of policy, brings out the moralistic differences between the 'get a job' conservatives and the 'bleeding heart' liberals. Both sides seem preoccupied with what people 'deserve'. I guess I've just never seen wages in those terms. Wages reflect how valuable a given job is to society. Not much more to it than that.

I tried to convey that very thought to someone a little while ago and got a nasty PM. It amazes me that people don't understand that concept. No one is going to pay you extra because you think you deserve it. They are going to pay you the value you bring to their business.
Another thing is being willing to work for free to gain experience. Internships and donating time can add up to extra $$ when going for a new job.

It sounds like the both of you (Asclepias and dblack) are sort of in a "pay what the labor market can bear" camp but, when it comes to American labor, I think you are ignoring a very big piece of the puzzle, and that is the effect of free trade. We are dealing with some very complex issues but I think, for this forum, it is best to keep it as simple and basic as possible. So I will make a very simple and factual statement and ask a couple of questions.

Ralph Lauren made a very good financial decision and, using donations from American workers and corporations, our United States Olympic athletes marched out in front of the world with uniforms made in China.

How did that make you feel?

Had those athletes decided not to wear those uniforms and buy Wrangler jeans, Pendleton shirts, Filson jackets and etc. would you have supported them?

Admittedly, this was pretty high profile news but it is illustrative of at least part of the problem and I think a big part. Every day, American workers, your neighbors, are losing their jobs and having to work for lower wages because they are being forced to compete with countries with sub-standard labor practices.

I think American workers DESERVE fair wages and work place protection. There is a lot more than the bottom line and that ol' "pie in the sky" thing won't feed hungry children.

I think we need to look or real solutions without selling our brothers and sisters out for tools that break and clothes that fall apart.

I was really unaware that the clothes were made in China but that is not surprising nor does it bother me as I will explain. I can only say that it is sad for nostalgic reasons. I have always prided myself on being able to see trends develop far in advance of those trends coming true. What I saw coming in the late 90's is here but even more so than I thought.

The biggest issue to me is the refusal of American workers to "move with the cheese". Big business has moved the goal post and has not told the segment of society that consists of the working class where they can find the American dream. Right now I see people living with an industrial age mindset when we have long since transitioned to the information age. The market place is global. We have to compete with people in nations that will take half of what you are currently getting and do the job without complaining. Physical jobs are dropping like flies to automation. Pretty soon minimum wage jobs are probably going to cease to exist as we now know it unless a human presence is absolutely required. There is just no future in minimum wage. Prices are going to go up and wipe out the gain in those wages if they are raised. It's the law of supply and demand. you put more money into the market place and raise the cost of doing business at the same time and it is going to result in higher prices.

Since we have a free market we cannot force companies to pay more without expecting to lose more jobs. The only place we can guarantee people get paid close to what they feel they should is going to be with government jobs. The fields that I would recommend going into now are the medical and engineering fields if you are looking for a stable somewhat high paying job. That requires people plan ahead and get skilled in those areas. Trade schools are a inexpensive alternative to college. People also need to learn to have multiple sources of income and at least one business entity. My grandpa told me to make sure I can be a producer more than a consumer. It is going to be tough for some people to change their mindset at first and that's why I have no problem paying my taxes for those that need assistance. To conclude our brothers and sisters need to open their eyes.

 

[Indeependent]

I tried to convey that very thought to someone a little while ago and got a nasty PM. It amazes me that people don't understand that concept. No one is going to pay you extra because you think you deserve it. They are going to pay you the value you bring to their business.
Another thing is being willing to work for free to gain experience. Internships and donating time can add up to extra $$ when going for a new job.

It sounds like the both of you (Asclepias and dblack) are sort of in a "pay what the labor market can bear" camp but, when it comes to American labor, I think you are ignoring a very big piece of the puzzle, and that is the effect of free trade. We are dealing with some very complex issues but I think, for this forum, it is best to keep it as simple and basic as possible. So I will make a very simple and factual statement and ask a couple of questions.

Ralph Lauren made a very good financial decision and, using donations from American workers and corporations, our United States Olympic athletes marched out in front of the world with uniforms made in China.

How did that make you feel?

Had those athletes decided not to wear those uniforms and buy Wrangler jeans, Pendleton shirts, Filson jackets and etc. would you have supported them?

Admittedly, this was pretty high profile news but it is illustrative of at least part of the problem and I think a big part. Every day, American workers, your neighbors, are losing their jobs and having to work for lower wages because they are being forced to compete with countries with sub-standard labor practices.

I think American workers DESERVE fair wages and work place protection. There is a lot more than the bottom line and that ol' "pie in the sky" thing won't feed hungry children.

I think we need to look or real solutions without selling our brothers and sisters out for tools that break and clothes that fall apart.

I was really unaware that the clothes were made in China but that is not surprising nor does it bother me as I will explain. I can only say that it is sad for nostalgic reasons. I have always prided myself on being able to see trends develop far in advance of those trends coming true. What I saw coming in the late 90's is here but even more so than I thought.

The biggest issue to me is the refusal of American workers to "move with the cheese". Big business has moved the goal post and has not told the segment of society that consists of the working class where they can find the American dream. Right now I see people living with an industrial age mindset when we have long since transitioned to the information age. The market place is global. We have to compete with people in nations that will take half of what you are currently getting and do the job without complaining. Physical jobs are dropping like flies to automation. Pretty soon minimum wage jobs are probably going to cease to exist as we now know it unless a human presence is absolutely required. There is just no future in minimum wage. Prices are going to go up and wipe out the gain in those wages if they are raised. It's the law of supply and demand. you put more money into the market place and raise the cost of doing business at the same time and it is going to result in higher prices.

Since we have a free market we cannot force companies to pay more without expecting to lose more jobs. The only place we can guarantee people get paid close to what they feel they should is going to be with government jobs. The fields that I would recommend going into now are the medical and engineering fields if you are looking for a stable somewhat high paying job. That requires people plan ahead and get skilled in those areas. Trade schools are a inexpensive alternative to college. People also need to learn to have multiple sources of income and at least one business entity. My grandpa told me to make sure I can be a producer more than a consumer. It is going to be tough for some people to change their mindset at first and that's why I have no problem paying my taxes for those that need assistance. To conclude our brothers and sisters need to open their eyes.

Engineering...Oh yeah, sure.
Why hire an American graduate when you can get the Best and the Brightest for 1/5th the price.

Try and get a business loan...try.

Free Market? It's called MNC written legislation...get rid of it.

 

[Indofred]

I have worked for low wages but, when I did that, there was no minimum wage.
That was just a stopgap until, a few months later, I found something better.

The trick is simple - try hard and never give up.
That always impresses potential employers.

Those who sit in a minimum wage job, moaning how hard done to they are, deserve nothing because they won't help themselves.

 

[Asclepias]

It sounds like the both of you (Asclepias and dblack) are sort of in a "pay what the labor market can bear" camp but, when it comes to American labor, I think you are ignoring a very big piece of the puzzle, and that is the effect of free trade. We are dealing with some very complex issues but I think, for this forum, it is best to keep it as simple and basic as possible. So I will make a very simple and factual statement and ask a couple of questions.

Ralph Lauren made a very good financial decision and, using donations from American workers and corporations, our United States Olympic athletes marched out in front of the world with uniforms made in China.

How did that make you feel?

Had those athletes decided not to wear those uniforms and buy Wrangler jeans, Pendleton shirts, Filson jackets and etc. would you have supported them?

Admittedly, this was pretty high profile news but it is illustrative of at least part of the problem and I think a big part. Every day, American workers, your neighbors, are losing their jobs and having to work for lower wages because they are being forced to compete with countries with sub-standard labor practices.

I think American workers DESERVE fair wages and work place protection. There is a lot more than the bottom line and that ol' "pie in the sky" thing won't feed hungry children.

I think we need to look or real solutions without selling our brothers and sisters out for tools that break and clothes that fall apart.

I was really unaware that the clothes were made in China but that is not surprising nor does it bother me as I will explain. I can only say that it is sad for nostalgic reasons. I have always prided myself on being able to see trends develop far in advance of those trends coming true. What I saw coming in the late 90's is here but even more so than I thought.

The biggest issue to me is the refusal of American workers to "move with the cheese". Big business has moved the goal post and has not told the segment of society that consists of the working class where they can find the American dream. Right now I see people living with an industrial age mindset when we have long since transitioned to the information age. The market place is global. We have to compete with people in nations that will take half of what you are currently getting and do the job without complaining. Physical jobs are dropping like flies to automation. Pretty soon minimum wage jobs are probably going to cease to exist as we now know it unless a human presence is absolutely required. There is just no future in minimum wage. Prices are going to go up and wipe out the gain in those wages if they are raised. It's the law of supply and demand. you put more money into the market place and raise the cost of doing business at the same time and it is going to result in higher prices.

Since we have a free market we cannot force companies to pay more without expecting to lose more jobs. The only place we can guarantee people get paid close to what they feel they should is going to be with government jobs. The fields that I would recommend going into now are the medical and engineering fields if you are looking for a stable somewhat high paying job. That requires people plan ahead and get skilled in those areas. Trade schools are a inexpensive alternative to college. People also need to learn to have multiple sources of income and at least one business entity. My grandpa told me to make sure I can be a producer more than a consumer. It is going to be tough for some people to change their mindset at first and that's why I have no problem paying my taxes for those that need assistance. To conclude our brothers and sisters need to open their eyes.

Engineering...Oh yeah, sure.
Why hire an American graduate when you can get the Best and the Brightest for 1/5th the price.

Try and get a business loan...try.

Free Market? It's called MNC written legislation...get rid of it.

So what are you going to do then? Lay down and die or keep going?