Minimum wage is already “livable”

[Anomalism]

Yeah, I do. I’m a realist. We can provide free education to poor people so they won’t be dependent on other people’s money their entire life, but some people are either unmotivated or just dumb. Thus, we have to provide a bare-bones existence for them to keep them from living on the streets.

I think it would be good for our nation if we did whatever we can think of to get more capable young people educated. And I don't just mean normal college. Trade schools too. We need educated and professional Americans that will be able to compete with China.

 

[Lisa558]

The minimum wage is not a living wage, nor should it be. Rather, it was meant to be a "learning wage"and a wage for students in the summer months. Somehow, it has morphed into a "living wage" issue, and it is hardly that.

As I said in my OP, “livable” is subjective. It is “living” to rent a room in someone’s house, have a little fridge and microwave in there, and make do.

But I like your idea of “training wage.” of the 2% of MW employees, half are teens or college kids working part-time jobs. So we are really talking about 1% of the workforce who are adults and still pulling up the bottom.

 

[Harpy Eagle]

You ascribe all sorts of wonderful traits to poor people who find themselves in their situation - along with excuses. Never their own fault, eh.

What traits have I ascribed to poor people? Please list them. Also, show me where I ever said nothing was their own fault.

Well, when I worked a couple of summers in a financial aid office at the local CC, kids who qualified for Pell didn’t want to complete the forms!

Of course you did, was this before or after your trips to Europe?

 

[Lisa558]

$300 per month per kid doesn't equate to all that much. If that exceeds job pay we have a big time wage issue

Jeez, do I have to go over the same stuff all the time? That‘s almost $1000 a month if you have three kids, and that’s about what wives working part-time to supplement the family income earn. Now the leftists are just handing them that money, so many have quit.

 

[SweetTea]

You really are not informed. I’m not talking about the UE benefits. I’m talking about the new government child support checks. They used to go to people who owed taxes, but now they go to EVERYONE. Plus, they raised it.

So the wife working part-time for $300 a week to supplement the family income now finds that she is getting $300 per month, per child, from taxpayers, and quits her job. Now multiply that by 10 million, and you have a problem.

I have been talking about this for months. The MSM hides this information as did the Biden Administration. They kept the name Child Tax Credit because it has been in place for quite some time and it doeesn’t raise any eyebrows. They figured they could slip in the little tidbit of a change that makes it fully refundable, meaning people that do not pay ANY federal income taxes get the “credit”. That is no longer a credit, it is a handout for those that pay less taxes than the credit.

I would be willing to bet that 75% of the leftists on this board weren’t aware of this change and that means that 95% of the average votes is in the dark.

 

[DudleySmith]

Companies don't use government programs--workers do.

This is not a new concept of any kind. When I was young yes, people had low paying jobs. But because there was little in the way of welfare back then, when people couldn't make ends meet, they worked a lot of overtime or got a second job. There were several times in my life I had two jobs, and at one point three. You did whatever it took to keep the lights on and a roof over your head.

Government took that drive out of people with their stupid social programs that pay people who could otherwise make it on their own. In many cases they discourage people from working harder because making more money reduces their government goodies. I've seen it repeatedly.

Wrong. They use green cards, and they use right to work laws, they use transportation subsidies, limited liability laws to limit their losses, bankruptcy courts, USAID to build infrastructure for their factories in foreign countries, military and civilian contracts, police services, etc. and that is just the tip of the iceberg.

When I was in high school minimum wage was a $1.60; you could buy a lot with that wage rate in those years. Full time would get you a $40 a month garage apt. and make a $35 a month payment on a relatively new car and plenty left over for food and entertainment. 20 hours a week and living at home while going to school got you a nice used car and plenty of money for clothes and whatever. I worked a 'crappy' job at a new Skaggs/Albertson's store as a sacker for that from 9th grade on and that was back when people tipped sack boys for carrying the groceries to their cars, so we made as much or more than that on tips as well. Pumping gas was another 'kids' job, same thing with tips and other bennies, like getting to use the lifts and stuff after hours on weekends to build your hot rod or whatever. Nobody cried about fake 'labor shortages' and how it sucked that Americans wont work for 25 cents an hour like they do in China n stuff.

 

[Harpy Eagle]

I think it would be good for our nation if we did whatever we can think of to get more capable young people educated. And I don't just mean normal college. Trade schools too. We need educated and professional Americans that will be able to compete with China.

We need to push trade schools while they are still in High School, but instead most counselors push everyone to a 4 year college so they get a better rating.

Also, many trade schools have gotten more expensive than actual college. Our son recently went to Lineman school to learn how to be an Electrical lineman. It was expensive as hell and would have been near impossible for anyone to do without taking on a lot of debt if they did not have parents or someone with the means to help them. There were no "poor kids" at his school.

 

[Lisa558]

What traits have I ascribed to poor people? Please list them. Also, show me where I ever said nothing was their own fault.



Of course you did, was this before or after your trips to Europe?

You effectively say that nothing is ever their fault because you excuse them for everything.

And not sure what nasty implication you are making about my vacations to Europe, other than to insinuate I’m a liar. And that’s what leftists do: whenever a conservative gives facts that prove the libs are wrong, they just say “you lie,” FYI, I have been to Israel, England, Italy, Switzerland, France, the Greek islands, Athens, and Istanbul. I even toured a small town in Africa on one of my cruises.

 

[Polishprince]

Not everyone can get a Pell Grant, and a Pell grant will not pay for all of school.

Things are not as neat and simple as you make them out to be. There are many more things involved but in your little pollyannaish world none of those things exist. You seem to have no grasp of reality.



It is nice how you assume every poor person is also a drunk or an alcoholic. Or that everyone knows someone else in a different town they can just go stay with for a few months.

You're right, not everyone can get a pell grant. But not everyone should be attending a university to begin with, either.

How many capable Americans are denied the ability to borrow money to go to school if they are actually able and motivated to, is the question.

 

[Polishprince]

We need to push trade schools while they are still in High School, but instead most counselors push everyone to a 4 year college so they get a better rating.

Also, many trade schools have gotten more expensive than actual college. Our son recently went to Lineman school to learn how to be an Electrical lineman. It was expensive as hell and would have been near impossible for anyone to do without taking on a lot of debt if they did not have parents or someone with the means to help them. There were no "poor kids" at his school.

Maybe , if you didn't want to borrow the money he could have picked a different trade?

Professions like custodian or shoe repair are needed and cost a lot less. In recent years, a number of cobblers in this region have retired or died, young people aren't picking up the mantle.

 

[Harpy Eagle]

You effectively say that nothing is ever their fault because you excuse them for everything.

No, I am not effectively saying that at all, I am pointing out that things are not a neat and simple as you pretend/think they are.

 

[Anomalism]

No, I am not effectively saying that at all, I am pointing out that things are not a neat and simple as you pretend/think they are.

She defended the existence of social safety nets for people that can't succeed. That's pretty significant I think.

 

[Lisa558]

I have been talking about this for months. The MSM hides this information as did the Biden Administration. They kept the name Child Tax Credit because it has been in place for quite some time and it doeesn’t raise any eyebrows. They figured they could slip in the little tidbit of a change that makes it fully refundable, meaning people that do not pay ANY federal income taxes get the “credit”. That is no longer a credit, it is a handout for those that pay less taxes than the credit.

I would be willing to bet that 75% of the leftists on this board weren’t aware of this change and that means that 95% of the average votes is in the dark.

You are correct. The leftists keep bringing up how the excess UE has stopped, and are clueless about the government child support - which is what it is. The leftists hide it under the name “child tax credit,” but it’s welfare, plain and simple.

Fully half of all Americans pay nothing in federal tax, and they just were out on welfare. Those with three kids are getting a handout of almost $1000 a month!

 

[Lisa558]

No, I am not effectively saying that at all, I am pointing out that things are not a neat and simple as you pretend/think they are.

I never said they were ”neat.” It’s just that their being difficult is no reason to excuse them and hand out more money.

 

[SweetTea]

$300 per month per kid doesn't equate to all that much. If that exceeds job pay we have a big time wage issue

What incentive to work does a family with 3 kids who get a tax free $900/mth in addition to SNAP, welfare, soon to be free pre-school, free school lunches and free housing? Keep in mind, most of these folks aren’t qualified for top salaries, so they choose to stay home and do nothing vs working for a very negligible gain. If they were smart, the would utilize their free time to learn a skill, but the freebies limit their motivation to do much of anything. The Democrat’s solution is to give them even more freebees or to expect businesses to pick up the tab by overpaying for menial work.

 

[Harpy Eagle]

Maybe , if you didn't want to borrow the money he could have picked a different trade?

We did not borrow the money, but most that went to the school had to.

Or perhaps we should not make our trade schools so expensive that only the well off can get into the trades that pay well.

Professions like custodian or shoe repair are needed and cost a lot less.

The average salary for a custodian is 25 grand a year. Seems to kind of miss the mark for getting out of the minimum wage jobs as it is barely above that.

 

[Lisa558]

You're right, not everyone can get a pell grant. But not everyone should be attending a university to begin with, either.

How many capable Americans are denied the ability to borrow money to go to school if they are actually able and motivated to, is the question.

The beauty of Pell Grants is that they can be used for other educational opportunities besides college. You can enroll in a six-month vocational program - maybe some basic computer skills - and the taxpayers would cover it. Why not lean Powerpoint and Exel (or whatever the youngins’ use nowadays) and get an office job paying $20 an hour instead of stocking shelves at Walmart for $12?

 

[SweetTea]

Jeez, do I have to go over the same stuff all the time? That‘s almost $1000 a month if you have three kids, and that’s about what wives working part-time to supplement the family income earn. Now the leftists are just handing them that money, so many have quit.

That $1000 is tax free. They would need to earn $1200 or so to net $1000 in income. If they were making $15/hr they would need to work ~1.5 weeks for that money. That is significant especially when you add in all the other benefits they receive, including free housing.

 

[Lisa558]

What incentive to work does a family with 3 kids who get a tax free $900/mth in addition to SNAP, welfare, soon to be free pre-school, free school lunches and free housing? Keep in mind, most of these folks aren’t qualified for top salaries, so they choose to stay home and do nothing vs working for a very negligible gain. If they were smart, the would utilize their free time to learn a skill, but the freebies limit their motivation to do much of anything. The Democrat’s solution is to give them even more freebees or to expect businesses to pick up the tab by overpaying for menial work.

Yup. A welfare mother with three kids is getting subsidized housing, free medical, food stamps, free breakfasts and lunches for her kids, and now almost $1000 cash* on top of that! She is living as well, and probably has more disposable income, than a woman without children, who took some classes to learn basic computer skills, and now earns $40,000 in an office.

A sign of socialism is when you give so much to the unproductive that they live as well, or almost as well, as productive people working a job.

* tax-free, as DBA points out

 

[Anomalism]

So here's where I start to have issues with the left on social safety nets.

I agree that some people need help. I think a lot of those people that need help have issues with making responsible decisions in their lives. If they're going to survive on the public's generosity then the public should get a say in how that money is used. Maybe some poor person with drug issues shouldn't just get a check for cash, you know? Maybe we should guarantee them a roof and some food instead. Maybe you shouldn't be able to buy coke and candy with food stamps. There's an obesity epidemic among poor people. Could it be related to their difficulty in making responsible decisions?

When you want other people to take care of you it's not unreasonable for the person doing the caring to want to have an element of control in the matter. Irresponsible people that need help from the public should be treated in a patronizing way with the money they get from the public. It's justified. They have demonstrated that they can't do it on their own. They need other people to help them.

The left won't accept how much of it is simply bad decision making. People are irresponsible. They need a responsible person to help them.