Millions Of Electric Car Batteries Retiring By 2030, Are We Ready To Deal With What Could Be Ticking Time Bombs?

[Dagosa]

Some good points. Chinese avarice is built into their genome, the eventual plan being to (buy [italics]) the Russian Far East and United States. Conversely, ev battery-swapping is a formidable idea to ponder. Price per kw compares with the youtube video showing the human moving at ~ 8mph on a level surface with no battery, only a motor and solar panel.

And too, as far as the consumer is concerned,
Capitalism works it’s way into every energy source regardless of how cheaply it is derived.
Unless regulated, electricity will be sold for a price as high as the market will bear.

 

[Dagosa]

There are some gains when switching from ICE to an electric motor...but not in anyway nearly enough to make up for the weight of the batteries.

Yup
This is why fuel cells are still on the table for some applications, like long haul trucking. Batteries may never be the answer because of energy density problems. But, getting an electric motor replacing an ice is an absolute no brainer.

 

[Dagosa]

On the other hand, a la Boebert, et al, Biden's handlers do want other sources than Chinese lithium, the $7,500 comes with a stipulation, which in no way should be construed as a Biden idea.

It isn’t China. It’s all foreign made SUVs.

 

[badger2]

The weight of batteries versus the power they produce is still much more substantial than the weight versus the power produced by diesel or gasoline.

There are some gains when switching from ICE to an electric motor...but not in anyway nearly enough to make up for the weight of the batteries.

And your battery swapping concept would work as a subscription service...but would still be fraught with issues (primarily logistics and shipping...petroleum products move by low cost pipeline)

Worthwhile talking points, though the swapping apparently happens wherever a gas station can happen: pre-charged vending.

 

[badger2]

It isn’t China. It’s all foreign made SUVs.

Before searching, are there articles recently published already in place about foreign SUVs you may be thinking of?

 

[Dagosa]

Before searching, are there articles recently published already in place about foreign SUVs you may be thinking of?

Ooops, EVs not SUVs
Yes, all foreign makers this year for non domestic EVs in total for tax credits and those from countries of concern beginning in 2024 for battery “ parts”. It seems like a reasonable foreign policy. At no time has Biden discussed with China digging up dirt on a relative of Trump as a prerequisite for foreign trade favors.

 

[JohnDB]

Worthwhile talking points, though the swapping apparently happens wherever a gas station can happen: pre-charged vending.

Correct...it would just require a substantial increase in power supplied to the station and an equipment makeover.

However the logistics of supplying the batteries to the various stations for malfunctioning batteries (huge variety of reasons) is going to require even more energy than is currently used in supplying the stations with fuel. Unless you make a battery manufacturer and refurbisher in EVERY large city. Even then the supplies for such industrial plants are going to be substantially more than are currently used for petroleum.
(Costs for infrastructure and $ per kilowatt are going to make batteries rather expensive and likely on par with petroleum)

The current electric grid is incapable of producing the electricity necessary to charge the batteries on a daily basis. Meaning that we will need a massive increase in the amount of electricity generated. We have actually dropped several coal burners off the grid as we have moved from an industrial economy to tech, entertainment, service, and food processing....so these sites are available for use for a variety of generating means that are economical (something other than nuclear because of the risks of nuclear power) This is doable...but going to require years to achieve. (Adding alternators to current generating facilities where possible and adding several new generating facilities)

Meanwhile peak petroleum is pushed further down the road past 2050.

So...where I don't mind the EV concept...it just doesn't work yet. It's going to take decades to move to a new type of independent travel and cargo hauling.

Once upon a time we used horses and mules to travel and haul goods. Seed and feed stores were everywhere as well as watering spots. But the manure piled up in the major cities and was a major issue to deal with on a daily basis.
We want to travel but didn't want the poop. Automobiles were laughed at and about. (Obviously things have changed)

And now we are discussing another change again...so I expect resistance.

 

[Dagosa]

Correct...it would just require a substantial increase in power supplied to the station and an equipment makeover.

However the logistics of supplying the batteries to the various stations for malfunctioning batteries (huge variety of reasons) is going to require even more energy than is currently used in supplying the stations with fuel. Unless you make a battery manufacturer and refurbisher in EVERY large city. Even then the supplies for such industrial plants are going to be substantially more than are currently used for petroleum.
(Costs for infrastructure and $ per kilowatt are going to make batteries rather expensive and likely on par with petroleum)

The current electric grid is incapable of producing the electricity necessary to charge the batteries on a daily basis. Meaning that we will need a massive increase in the amount of electricity generated. We have actually dropped several coal burners off the grid as we have moved from an industrial economy to tech, entertainment, service, and food processing....so these sites are available for use for a variety of generating means that are economical (something other than nuclear because of the risks of nuclear power) This is doable...but going to require years to achieve. (Adding alternators to current generating facilities where possible and adding several new generating facilities)

Meanwhile peak petroleum is pushed further down the road past 2050.

So...where I don't mind the EV concept...it just doesn't work yet. It's going to take decades to move to a new type of independent travel and cargo hauling.

Once upon a time we used horses and mules to travel and haul goods. Seed and feed stores were everywhere as well as watering spots. But the manure piled up in the major cities and was a major issue to deal with on a daily basis.
We want to travel but didn't want the poop. Automobiles were laughed at and about. (Obviously things have changed)

And now we are discussing another change again...so I expect resistance.

“

The current electric grid is incapable of producing the electricity necessary to charge the batteries on a daily basis.

Let’s do the math..
It takes 9 kWh to extract a gallon of distillate and 3 kWh to refine it into gasoline. Thats a total of 12 kWh of electricity per gallon of gasoline to make. An EV goes nearly 4 miles per kWh. That’s 48 miles per 12 kWh. So an EV goes much farther on 12 kWh then that amount takes To extract and refine a gallon of gasoline. So really, there is no need to worry about enough electricity . You’ll have more than enough just reducing consumption of gasoline. We keep forgetting it takes electricity to extract and refine crude into gasoline.

Look at the costs….
it costs .15 per kWh in our state. So, It costs .15 to go about 4 miles with electricity. Can you go 4 miles in a gasoline powered car for .15 ? Fk no. Not even close. EVs are here to stay.

 

[badger2]

A few points in comparing Musk's cybertruck with Badger 2's winter trike for the elderly:

1. Cybertruck is stainless steel, trike is steel and aluminum tubing, weighs less than cybertruck (under 150 pounds without the driver).

2. Cybertruck has 100s of miles range, trike is about 25 miles for electric assist.

3. Cybertruck $60,000 or so, trike cost of materials $1500-$2,000.

4. Cybertruck is stainless steel, trike is steel-aluminum frame, covered in clear vinyl; velcro attachments and folds to lock in the trunk to deter vandalism.

5. Trike may be warmer than the cybertruck even without a heater on sunny winter days, and has in-transit solar recharging.

30 Nov 2023 More Than 3K Car Dealers Urge Biden to Slow EV Mandates

Marco Rubio leads effort to block clean energy credits from automakers that offshore jobs

FIRST ON FOX: Senate Republicans are planning to introduce legislation early next week that would punish automakers that move to offshore production and jobs.

foxnews.com

 

[badger2]

“

Let’s do the math..
It takes 9 kWh to extract a gallon of distillate and 3 kWh to refine it into gasoline. Thats a total of 12 kWh of electricity per gallon of gasoline to make. An EV goes nearly 4 miles per kWh. That’s 48 miles per 12 kWh. So an EV goes much farther on 12 kWh then that amount takes To extract and refine a gallon of gasoline. So really, there is no need to worry about enough electricity . You’ll have more than enough just reducing consumption of gasoline. We keep forgetting it takes electricity to extract and refine crude into gasoline.

Look at the costs….
it costs .15 per kWh in our state. So, It costs .15 to go about 4 miles with electricity. Can you go 4 miles in a gasoline powered car for .15 ? Fk no. Not even close. EVs are here to stay.

"An EV goes nearly 4 miles per kWh." We will, then, experiment for miles per kWh for the trike, first with the solar recharge detached from the vehicle (no solar panel weight or power station weight), followed by these added weights to the system.

 

[toobfreak]

Let’s do the math..

Even assuming your static claims and figures are all correct, your conclusions are the biggest crock of shit I've ever seen that it makes me wonder if it all didn't just come off of some pro-EV website! Your conclusions are all based as if EVs just pop out of nowhere ready to run, ready to charge up and go with no mention of the vast deficit and impact on the earth mining, installing and building/replacing batteries.

To hear you talk, EVs will practically replace themselves for free with a surplus of energy!!!

For instance, you totally ignore the fact that for an EV to even operate, it will cost the user about $200 a month just to have the EV in terms of battery depreciation and replacement costs! And that is based just on CURRENT battery replacement costs which can only increase with time and inflation and demand.

I see a time when people's EVs fail needing a new battery and they are DOA sitting on a waiting list for another battery to become available.

Never mind if the battery shorts or catches fire due to getting wet, say, in a flood, etc. Then there is the problem of winter driving.

Maybe an EV is cheaper to operate UP FRONT once you have the EV and the charger and only look at the recharging costs per mile driven, but that totally ignores the fact that the EV is far more costly to operate in terms of even BUYING the EV in the first place, the cost of the charger, finding charging stations, time to recharge, and the cost of replacing the battery (half the cost and weight of the car) every ten years.

EV's are a good deal and cheaper to operate only so long as you can get someone else to buy it for you, then somehow dump it on someone else before needing a new battery. Add that $200 per month expense onto the electricity consumption, even if you hardly drive it---- just imagine if you had $200 in repairs to your ICE car each month, every month, year in, year out.

When you factor the increased costs of EVs and the cost of replacing the battery alone, up front, while it might save you money recharging it compared to gasoline, you only got there by paying an added $10,000 - $20,000 for the EV over a comparable ICE car (minimum) + the cost of battery wear, depreciation and replacement, so, driving an EV, enjoy your low recharging costs, because it came to you at about an added $400.00 a month cost over what it would have cost you to buy an ICE car, when you factor in these big, upfront expenditures.

 

[badger2]

Musk's cybertruck may not have battery warming. In the etrike, battery warming for sub-zero weather is done with a 120 volt AC heating pad wrapped around the battery inside a double compartment. A solar-rechargeable AC power station powers the heating pad and is very lightweight, ~ 5 pounds.

 

[JohnDB]

Even assuming your static claims and figures are all correct, your conclusions are the biggest crock of shit I've ever seen that it makes me wonder if it all didn't just come off of some pro-EV website! Your conclusions are all based as if EVs just pop out of nowhere ready to run, ready to charge up and go with no mention of the vast deficit and impact on the earth mining, installing and building/replacing batteries.

To hear you talk, EVs will practically replace themselves for free with a surplus of energy!!!

For instance, you totally ignore the fact that for an EV to even operate, it will cost the user about $200 a month just to have the EV in terms of battery depreciation and replacement costs! And that is based just on CURRENT battery replacement costs which can only increase with time and inflation and demand.

I see a time when people's EVs fail needing a new battery and they are DOA sitting on a waiting list for another battery to become available.

Never mind if the battery shorts or catches fire due to getting wet, say, in a flood, etc. Then there is the problem of winter driving.

Maybe an EV is cheaper to operate UP FRONT once you have the EV and the charger and only look at the recharging costs per mile driven, but that totally ignores the fact that the EV is far more costly to operate in terms of even BUYING the EV in the first place, the cost of the charger, finding charging stations, time to recharge, and the cost of replacing the battery (half the cost and weight of the car) every ten years.

EV's are a good deal and cheaper to operate only so long as you can get someone else to buy it for you, then somehow dump it on someone else before needing a new battery. Add that $200 per month expense onto the electricity consumption, even if you hardly drive it---- just imagine if you had $200 in repairs to your ICE car each month, every month, year in, year out.

When you factor the increased costs of EVs and the cost of replacing the battery alone, up front, while it might save you money recharging it compared to gasoline, you only got there by paying an added $10,000 - $20,000 for the EV over a comparable ICE car (minimum) + the cost of battery wear, depreciation and replacement, so, driving an EV, enjoy your low recharging costs, because it came to you at about an added $400.00 a month cost over what it would have cost you to buy an ICE car, when you factor in these big, upfront expenditures.

Then there's resale value....

Anyone up for buying a 10 year old EV?
Never in a million years!

How about a 10 year old chevy silverado pickup truck?
They literally can't keep them in stock. IOW you can't find one to purchase unless you get lucky.

 

[toobfreak]

Then there's resale value....
Anyone up for buying a 10 year old EV?
Never in a million years!
How about a 10 year old chevy silverado pickup truck?
They literally can't keep them in stock. IOW you can't find one to purchase unless you get lucky.

I have a 35 year old K1500 Silverado and have had people stop and make me offers on it.

 

[ding]

"An EV goes nearly 4 miles per kWh." We will, then, experiment for miles per kWh for the trike, first with the solar recharge detached from the vehicle (no solar panel weight or power station weight), followed by these added weights to the system.

Can you bang a chick on the back of your solar trike?

 

[JohnDB]

I have a 35 year old K1500 Silverado and have had people stop and make me offers on it.

You sure you don't want to sell it?

Totally jealous. I got a 2001 4 door Silverado with a new PP but original tyranny. And yeah it does the shimmy when it drops to 4 cylinder...nothing I can do about it either. But I love having my truck. Always wanted one like this and I got it...it's mine.

 

[Dagosa]

Even assuming your static claims and figures are all correct, your conclusions are the biggest crock of shit I've ever seen that it makes me wonder if it all didn't just come off of some pro-EV website! Your conclusions are all based as if EVs just pop out of nowhere ready to run, ready to charge up and go with no mention of the vast deficit and impact on the earth mining, installing and building/replacing batteries.

To hear you talk, EVs will practically replace themselves for free with a surplus of energy!!!

For instance, you totally ignore the fact that for an EV to even operate, it will cost the user about $200 a month just to have the EV in terms of battery depreciation and replacement costs! And that is based just on CURRENT battery replacement costs which can only increase with time and inflation and demand.

I see a time when people's EVs fail needing a new battery and they are DOA sitting on a waiting list for another battery to become available.

Never mind if the battery shorts or catches fire due to getting wet, say, in a flood, etc. Then there is the problem of winter driving.

Maybe an EV is cheaper to operate UP FRONT once you have the EV and the charger and only look at the recharging costs per mile driven, but that totally ignores the fact that the EV is far more costly to operate in terms of even BUYING the EV in the first place, the cost of the charger, finding charging stations, time to recharge, and the cost of replacing the battery (half the cost and weight of the car) every ten years.

EV's are a good deal and cheaper to operate only so long as you can get someone else to buy it for you, then somehow dump it on someone else before needing a new battery. Add that $200 per month expense onto the electricity consumption, even if you hardly drive it---- just imagine if you had $200 in repairs to your ICE car each month, every month, year in, year out.

When you factor the increased costs of EVs and the cost of replacing the battery alone, up front, while it might save you money recharging it compared to gasoline, you only got there by paying an added $10,000 - $20,000 for the EV over a comparable ICE car (minimum) + the cost of battery wear, depreciation and replacement, so, driving an EV, enjoy your low recharging costs, because it came to you at about an added $400.00 a month cost over what it would have cost you to buy an ICE car, when you factor in these big, upfront expenditures.

I’m figuring the costs of operating an EV. I’m accurate. I know my light bill and you know yours and like most modern cars, I can read the miles per kWh. Geesus, it’s not even close. 90% of EV Drivers charge at home, not at fast charge places.

Plus, the normal commuter can charge 60 miles on a 110w outlet over night. The majority of driving doesn’t even require a special fast charge…..just a 110.
You can read your light bill right ? The power draw on 110 is less than a small room air conditioner. Do the math. It taxes no one.

im only discussing operating costs. New battery prices are dealer installed prices, not after market. It’s hilarious how you inflate prices. You can get EVs for the average price of new ICE cars with the same performance….

Are they expensive ? You pay no more than an ICE car with the same capabilities…..You want a cheapo computer car, get a Chevy Bolt. Nearly everyone offers a variant in the mid price range.

 

[toobfreak]

You sure you don't want to sell it?

Nah. I'm the third owner. It's my baby. In 2008, I put some money into the body and it has zero rust, then I replaced the dash factory radio and cassette player with a very nice AM/FM CD player. It runs a 350 ci / 5L V-8 with auto and 4X4. The summer wheels are custom Ultras. I modded the valve body in the tranny and can shift it manually or let the auto do its thing.

 

[MarathonMike]

Yup they will use up all the water in the desert for the lithium mine, the Indians and farmers will be hung out to dry.

Funny thing is it still won’t be near enough lithium to make EV batteries for every American. There isn’t enough lithium and cobalt in the world. Most of it is owned by China too.

This is the biggest hoax, and we’re dumping so much money into it.

And the reason is for China to surpass the US as the world's number one super power.

 

[MarathonMike]

I’m figuring the costs of operating an EV. I’m accurate. I know my light bill and you know yours and like most modern cars, I can read the miles per kWh. Geesus, it’s not even close. 90% of EV Drivers charge at home, not at fast charge places.

Plus, the normal commuter can charge 60 miles on a 110w outlet over night. The majority of driving doesn’t even require a special fast charge…..just a 110.
You can read your light bill right ? The power draw on 110 is less than a small room air conditioner. Do the math. It taxes no one.

im only discussing operating costs. New battery prices are dealer installed prices, not after market. It’s hilarious how you inflate prices. You can get EVs for the average price of new ICE cars with the same performance….

Are they expensive ? You pay no more than an ICE car with the same capabilities…..You want a cheapo computer car, get a Chevy Bolt. Nearly everyone offers a variant in the mid price range.

Your post is a load of hooee. EVs are more expensive, less reliable, have MUCH less range and occasionally spontaneously combust resulting in a fire that burns for hours. Nobody wants them because the consumer is finally waking up to the insanity.