Marines charged in Iraqi deaths

[Dirt McGirt]

Marines charged in Iraqi civilian deaths
By THOMAS WATKINS, Associated Press Writer 8 minutes ago
CAMP PENDLETON, Calif. - Eight Marines were charged Thursday in the killings of 24 Iraqi civilians last year during a bloody, door-to-door sweep in the town of Haditha that came after one of their comrades was killed by a roadside bomb. In the biggest U.S. criminal case involving civilian deaths to come out of the Iraq war, four of the Marines — all enlisted men — were charged with unpremeditated murder. The other four were officers who were not there during the killings but were accused of failures in investigating and reporting the deaths.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061221/ap_on_re_us/marines_haditha

 

[Gunny]

Marines charged in Iraqi civilian deaths
By THOMAS WATKINS, Associated Press Writer 8 minutes ago
CAMP PENDLETON, Calif. - Eight Marines were charged Thursday in the killings of 24 Iraqi civilians last year during a bloody, door-to-door sweep in the town of Haditha that came after one of their comrades was killed by a roadside bomb. In the biggest U.S. criminal case involving civilian deaths to come out of the Iraq war, four of the Marines — all enlisted men — were charged with unpremeditated murder. The other four were officers who were not there during the killings but were accused of failures in investigating and reporting the deaths.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061221/ap_on_re_us/marines_haditha

They broke the rules and now they're going to suffer the consequences.

 

[USMCDevilDog]

They broke the rules and now they're going to suffer the consequences.

It's only fair.

 

[Gunny]

It's only fair.

I have no sympathy for warriors who wage war against noncombatants. That is NOT what we are all about. Noncombatant deaths are a tragic result of war, considered acceptable if the military goal is considered a greater value.

Waging war against noncombatants themselves is murder. That is what the bad guys are doing, and what we are supposed to be fighting against, not supporting.

 

[Dirt McGirt]

I have no sympathy for warriors who wage war against noncombatants. That is NOT what we are all about. Noncombatant deaths are a tragic result of war, considered acceptable if the military goal is considered a greater value.

Waging war against noncombatants themselves is murder. That is what the bad guys are doing, and what we are supposed to be fighting against, not supporting.

As a former veteran, I agree with Gunny. But I am going to withhold judgment on the Marines in the Haditha case until they have their trial, present their defense, and all the facts come out. However, the case presented by the MSM so far doesn't look good. May the Marines charged with this crime get a fair trial and justice be served accordingly.

On a side note, I heard that 3 Soldiers died today in Baghdad. My deepest sympathies go out to the families who had to receive this tragic and terrible news the day before Christmas. I couldn't imagine receiving news like this during the holiday season, it'd ruin Christmas for me forever.

 

[Gunny]

As a former veteran, I agree with Gunny. But I am going to withhold judgment on the Marines in the Haditha case until they have their trial, present their defense, and all the facts come out. However, the case presented by the MSM so far doesn't look good. May the Marines charged with this crime get a fair trial and justice be served accordingly.

On a side note, I heard that 3 soldiers died today in Baghdad. My deepest sympathies go out to the families who had to receive this tragic and terrible news the day before Christmas. I couldn't imagine receiving news like this during the holiday season, it'd ruin Christmas for me forever.

My judgement of course is contingent on their guilt, but the case presented IS about as damning as it gets. If the Corps put this much time and effort into investigating the allegations, and indicted pretty-much the entire chain-of-command, I'd say they would not bring charges without a pretty-much iron-clad case.

I also think any chance at fairness went out the window with the MSM's treatement of the incident and rush to judgement last year.

 

[Dirt McGirt]

My judgement of course is contingent on their guilt, but the case presented IS about as damning as it gets. If the Corps put this much time and effort into investigating the allegations, and indicted pretty-much the entire chain-of-command, I'd say they would not bring charges without a pretty-much iron-clad case.

Totally agreed. What's most damning to me seemed to be the statements of the medics about the women and children and the forensic evidence suggesting that they were "executed" at point blank range. I haven't heard much about the alleged "cover up" though.

I also think any chance at fairness went out the window with the MSM's treatement of the incident and rush to judgement last year.

I hear ya. But if I'm not mistaken, they are going to be tried by their peers and with a military judge through the Military courts so it will be more fair than if they had received a civilian trial with a civilian jury.

 

[Gunny]

Totally agreed. What's most damning to me seemed to be the statements of the medics about the women and children and the forensic evidence suggesting that they were "executed" at point blank range. I haven't heard much about the alleged "cover up" though.


I hear ya. But if I'm not mistaken, they are going to be tried by their peers and with a military judge through the Military courts so it will be more fair than if they had received a civilian trial with a civilian jury.

This one has a more detailed account and a timeline.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=6663367

 

[pegwinn]

IF the Marines are guilty of war crimes then they should be maxed out.

If the chain of command failed, then they too should get hammered.

IF, as the defense alleges, the Marines responded per training and SOP and then the chain of command covered it because of appearances then the chain of command should be hammered.

Too bad that [sarcasm] The Honorable Mr. Murtha [/sarcasm] saw fit to try them in the media. I wrote the Col a letter. Of course there wasn't any response. Typical.

 

[Gunny]

IF the Marines are guilty of war crimes then they should be maxed out.

If the chain of command failed, then they too should get hammered.

IF, as the defense alleges, the Marines responded per training and SOP and then the chain of command covered it because of appearances then the chain of command should be hammered.

Too bad that [sarcasm] The Honorable Mr. Murtha [/sarcasm] saw fit to try them in the media. I wrote the Col a letter. Of course there wasn't any response. Typical.

Murtha's one of those people that are the living argument for the term "EX-Marine." He's in fitting company ..... Charles Whitman, Lee Harvey Oswald ....

Doesn't this stink a little to you? Where are the senior SNCO's in all this?

 

[pegwinn]

Murtha's one of those people that are the living argument for the term "EX-Marine." He's in fitting company ..... Charles Whitman, Lee Harvey Oswald ....

Doesn't this stink a little to you? Where are the senior SNCO's in all this?

It stinks a lot. Everything I have read from the defense indicates that the clearing op was done per the MOUT SOP. I've also read about the fudged after actions. I've tried to find something showing the First Sergeant or Sergeant Major and drawn a blank. I can only hope that the court martial isn't influenced by the media and the right things get done.

 

[Gunny]

It stinks a lot. Everything I have read from the defense indicates that the clearing op was done per the MOUT SOP. I've also read about the fudged after actions. I've tried to find something showing the First Sergeant or Sergeant Major and drawn a blank. I can only hope that the court martial isn't influenced by the media and the right things get done.

I hesitated to point fingers at specific ranks because I still havne't seen anything that says what size unit was in the field, who was actually engaged, and where they were in relation to support. From all appearances from the media, it looks like a single fire team is running amock in Iraq.

Why don't I believe THAT?

 

[pegwinn]

I hesitated to point fingers at specific ranks because I still havne't seen anything that says what size unit was in the field, who was actually engaged, and where they were in relation to support. From all appearances from the media, it looks like a single fire team is running amock in Iraq.

Why don't I believe THAT? Now you know Marines would never, ever, micromanage a small unit in the field

Actually since the purported ringleader is a SSgt (then Sgt) I would be expecting a squad sized element. Still, there is the PltSgt the CoGy etc. Not a blessed word.

 

[Gunny]

Actually since the purported ringleader is a SSgt (then Sgt) I would be expecting a squad sized element. Still, there is the PltSgt the CoGy etc. Not a blessed word.

Well, that explains THAT. I was trying to figure out how a SSgt was a squad leader.

We're on the same sheet of music with the caveat that I still don't know what size unit was in the field. But there is a curious lack of personnel in positions of leadership that's REAL obvious to me. You would think the Marines sitting on a court martial would be asking the same questions.