Many Faiths, One Truth

[ABikerSailor]

You know Sky, there is another story similar to that..........

There was a young apprentice to a philosopher who was told that every time someone insulted him, he was to pay them a dollar.

This went on for several years. Every time someone insulted the apprentice, he was obligated to give them a dollar.

One day, his teacher came out to him and told him that he no longer had to pay people when they insulted him, and told his student to go sit at the gates to the city.

Many passerby would notice his clothing which was patched and soiled. Some would stop to insult his lack of riches and fine clothing.

He then laughed at them and told them" what I once had to pay dearly for, you now give me for free!"

Yeah..........n00barf serves a purpose.

 

[Avatar4321]

Very excellent post, Sky Dancer. 100% correct. I'll admit, Neubarth's fire and brimstone annoys me more easily than say, someone ragging on the Kuran.

really? Why?

I'd be more bothered if someone i respected annoyed me than by some troll I don't know from an internet message board. On the flip side, it's rather sad that id be less patient with people I care about than those I don't.

 

[Madeline]

Well of course I'd be more upset if someone I cared about IRL was ragging on me, Avatar. I guess my point is, when I read Neubarth's posts I recall painful or at least unpleasant moments from my past. I wasn't raised Muslim and so I don't have that connection to the Kuran.

The Light, twas nice of you to pos rep me. It is just astounding the gulf between people that can be closed if both are willing.

 

[THE LIGHT]

Well of course I'd be more upset if someone I cared about IRL was ragging on me, Avatar. I guess my point is, when I read Neubarth's posts I recall painful or at least unpleasant moments from my past. I wasn't raised Muslim and so I don't have that connection to the Kuran.

The Light, twas nice of you to pos rep me. It is just astounding the gulf between people that can be closed if both are willing.

Just don't read my other post I made in Neubarth's thread... You won't like me for it.

but you will like me for the other one.

 

[logical4u]

I'm surprised at some of the responses on this thread. I wanted to talk about the importance of respecting other peoples spiritual paths even while we walk our own. What is happening is people are coming out of the woodwork condemning others. It's an interesting phenomena given the OP. Perhaps respect for others isn't possible.

How can respect for others be possible? We kill the unborn. We turn our heads when children are raised by drug addicts and abused. We ignore the pornography industry's side effects of drug addicts, sexual diseases, broken families and wasted lives. We embrace homosexuality that breaks families and dismisses family obligations and responsibilities. We celebrate law breakers. We laugh at those that think morals are important. We don't require our leaders to have integrity (or even common sense).

These are society breakers. The people that do these things are found under every religion and in every nation. Spirituality is a personal choice and is reflected in every action and reaction each person makes.

There is only one way for everyone to get along: one person gets their way and everyone else is a servant or slave to their wishes.

Respect is earned thru strength (mental or physical). Many have no respect for those that have learned from those that came before them; they believe you can have everything the easy way or by killing your parents (Bill Ayers idea). Now if you are one of those that has learned historical and life's lessons, why would you respect someone that tells you everything you have learned is BS? You look at their life; you see they are not happy, and they still want to 'have control' over your life. Are you willing to respect those that you can clearly see are on the 'wrong' track?

 

[Madeline]

When values are so widely divergent as yours and mine are, logical4u, then yes respect is hard. Civility, patience and a willingness to listen might still be possible, however. With time, respect may come to exist as a result.

 

[Sky Dancer]

I'm surprised at some of the responses on this thread. I wanted to talk about the importance of respecting other peoples spiritual paths even while we walk our own. What is happening is people are coming out of the woodwork condemning others. It's an interesting phenomena given the OP. Perhaps respect for others isn't possible.

How can respect for others be possible? We kill the unborn. We turn our heads when children are raised by drug addicts and abused. We ignore the pornography industry's side effects of drug addicts, sexual diseases, broken families and wasted lives. We embrace homosexuality that breaks families and dismisses family obligations and responsibilities. We celebrate law breakers. We laugh at those that think morals are important. We don't require our leaders to have integrity (or even common sense).

These are society breakers. The people that do these things are found under every religion and in every nation. Spirituality is a personal choice and is reflected in every action and reaction each person makes.

There is only one way for everyone to get along: one person gets their way and everyone else is a servant or slave to their wishes.

Respect is earned thru strength (mental or physical). Many have no respect for those that have learned from those that came before them; they believe you can have everything the easy way or by killing your parents (Bill Ayers idea). Now if you are one of those that has learned historical and life's lessons, why would you respect someone that tells you everything you have learned is BS? You look at their life; you see they are not happy, and they still want to 'have control' over your life. Are you willing to respect those that you can clearly see are on the 'wrong' track?

I'm not suggesting that we respect bad behavior. What I am suggesting is that we respect the common values that most of us who are on a spiritual path have. We may come up with different conclusions due to our respective views on the world. We can learn to honor those and appreciate our differences.

You mentioning 'killing the unborn'. I would say that as a Buddhist, I notice that some people who are outraged about abortions still support capital punishment. That would be wrong for me, as a Buddhist, but I don't make someone else wrong for their heartfelt beliefs. I disagree with the view that it's ok to murder anyone regardless of how vile the person's behavior is. IMO, all life is sacred because we all have Buddha nature within us. We all have the potential to awaken to enlightenment.

When I see someone who I think is on the wrong track, I ask myself whether I have any influence on that person or not? If that person is open to me, I try and have a positive influence on his or her mind and heart. If that person is not open to me I pray for him or her and I acknowledge my own helplessness. I pray to develop more skillfulness so that I can be of greater benefit.

I disagree with you that we, as a collective, celebrate law breakers. Americans are not supportive of condemned criminals--in fact, we have a rather collective harsh view these days. Read the forum and you'll see what I mean.

I don't laugh at those who think morals are important. I laugh at those who think they can impose their morality on others. It doesn't work. It's folly, IMO.

As far as 'embracing homosexuality' I don't see that happening at all. What I see is a growing recognition that homosexuals aren't much different from anyone else. We have people who are devoted to and faithful to their mates and people who aren't. That phenomena is the same with heterosexuals. Whatever we can do as a society to support fidelity in relationships (marriage equality is a step in that direction IMO) is the right direction to move.

We have enough room in our country for differing views. We have religious freedom. What that means to me, is that I can oppose the death penalty and abortion and be able to converse with someone whose views are the opposite. It means that I can be against abortion without being an anti-abortion activist. I can support marriage equality and my neighbor can vehemently oppose it. We can still be respectful to those who disagree with us even while we ardently defend our passionate views.

Respect is earned by practicing it. It's giving the other person the benefit of the doubt. For me, it's giving a guy like Neubarth the space to condemn me to hell even while I trust that he does so out of altruism. I don't have to like or agree with his views. I just have to breathe the same air as every other being on the planet. I am prepared to respect Neubarth even though he doesn't respect me. I respect that he is entitled to his opinion. Would I prefer that he respect me? Sure. But I accept that my practice is to be patient and kind whatever he says or does.

I'm the one who has to live up to and respect Buddhist ideals. He does not.

 

[Sky Dancer]

You know Sky, there is another story similar to that..........

There was a young apprentice to a philosopher who was told that every time someone insulted him, he was to pay them a dollar.

This went on for several years. Every time someone insulted the apprentice, he was obligated to give them a dollar.

One day, his teacher came out to him and told him that he no longer had to pay people when they insulted him, and told his student to go sit at the gates to the city.

Many passerby would notice his clothing which was patched and soiled. Some would stop to insult his lack of riches and fine clothing.

He then laughed at them and told them" what I once had to pay dearly for, you now give me for free!"

Yeah..........n00barf serves a purpose.

Let's hear it for Neubarth--universal patience teacher.

Here's another story.

There was a monk who was very impatient. You may wonder, why would a monk be impatient? Don't they become monks so that they don't have to deal with the world? Yes, that's true. So imagine how impatient this monk was...

The more he tried, the more impatient he became, so he decided that he must get away altogether, to learn to be patient. So he built himself a little home deep in the woods, far away from civilization.

Years later, a man was traveling in those woods and met him. The man was amazed to find anyone living so far away from the rest of the world, so he asked the monk why he was there all by himself.

The monk said that he was there to learn to be patient.

The traveler asked how long he had been there, and the monk replied: seven ( 7 ) years.

Stunned, the traveler asked, "If there is no one around to bother you, how will you know when you are patient?"

Annoyed, the monk replied, "Get away from me, I have no time for you."

 

[logical4u]

Quote: Originally Posted by Sky Dancer
I'm surprised at some of the responses on this thread. I wanted to talk about the importance of respecting other peoples spiritual paths even while we walk our own. What is happening is people are coming out of the woodwork condemning others. It's an interesting phenomena given the OP. Perhaps respect for others isn't possible.
.

logical4u:

How can respect for others be possible? We kill the unborn. We turn our heads when children are raised by drug addicts and abused. We ignore the pornography industry's side effects of drug addicts, sexual diseases, broken families and wasted lives. We embrace homosexuality that breaks families and dismisses family obligations and responsibilities. We celebrate law breakers. We laugh at those that think morals are important. We don't require our leaders to have integrity (or even common sense).

These are society breakers. The people that do these things are found under every religion and in every nation. Spirituality is a personal choice and is reflected in every action and reaction each person makes.

There is only one way for everyone to get along: one person gets their way and everyone else is a servant or slave to their wishes.

Respect is earned thru strength (mental or physical). Many have no respect for those that have learned from those that came before them; they believe you can have everything the easy way or by killing your parents (Bill Ayers idea). Now if you are one of those that has learned historical and life's lessons, why would you respect someone that tells you everything you have learned is BS? You look at their life; you see they are not happy, and they still want to 'have control' over your life. Are you willing to respect those that you can clearly see are on the 'wrong' track?

When values are so widely divergent as yours and mine are, logical4u, then yes respect is hard. Civility, patience and a willingness to listen might still be possible, however. With time, respect may come to exist as a result.

You made my point very well: you speak of respect, but you refuse to acknowlege the honesty of my statement about societal breakers. You want to speak of 'divergent' like it is a good thing. There is the truth, and there is falsehood; let us speak honestly.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Quote: Originally Posted by Sky Dancer
I'm surprised at some of the responses on this thread. I wanted to talk about the importance of respecting other peoples spiritual paths even while we walk our own. What is happening is people are coming out of the woodwork condemning others. It's an interesting phenomena given the OP. Perhaps respect for others isn't possible.
.

logical4u:

How can respect for others be possible? We kill the unborn. We turn our heads when children are raised by drug addicts and abused. We ignore the pornography industry's side effects of drug addicts, sexual diseases, broken families and wasted lives. We embrace homosexuality that breaks families and dismisses family obligations and responsibilities. We celebrate law breakers. We laugh at those that think morals are important. We don't require our leaders to have integrity (or even common sense).

These are society breakers. The people that do these things are found under every religion and in every nation. Spirituality is a personal choice and is reflected in every action and reaction each person makes.

There is only one way for everyone to get along: one person gets their way and everyone else is a servant or slave to their wishes.

Respect is earned thru strength (mental or physical). Many have no respect for those that have learned from those that came before them; they believe you can have everything the easy way or by killing your parents (Bill Ayers idea). Now if you are one of those that has learned historical and life's lessons, why would you respect someone that tells you everything you have learned is BS? You look at their life; you see they are not happy, and they still want to 'have control' over your life. Are you willing to respect those that you can clearly see are on the 'wrong' track?

When values are so widely divergent as yours and mine are, logical4u, then yes respect is hard. Civility, patience and a willingness to listen might still be possible, however. With time, respect may come to exist as a result.

You made my point very well: you speak of respect, but you refuse to acknowlege the honesty of my statement about societal breakers. You want to speak of 'divergent' like it is a good thing. There is the truth, and there is falsehood; let us speak honestly.

Let's see if I understand you. If I agree with you, I show you respect? What if I don't agree with you? How can I disagree with you respectfully?

I'm not kidding. I really want to know because I value discussing this topic with you.

 

[logical4u]

[r;quote=logical4u;2450595]

I'm surprised at some of the responses on this thread. I wanted to talk about the importance of respecting other peoples spiritual paths even while we walk our own. What is happening is people are coming out of the woodwork condemning others. It's an interesting phenomena given the OP. Perhaps respect for others isn't possible.

How can respect for others be possible? We kill the unborn. We turn our heads when children are raised by drug addicts and abused. We ignore the pornography industry's side effects of drug addicts, sexual diseases, broken families and wasted lives. We embrace homosexuality that breaks families and dismisses family obligations and responsibilities. We celebrate law breakers. We laugh at those that think morals are important. We don't require our leaders to have integrity (or even common sense).

These are society breakers. The people that do these things are found under every religion and in every nation. Spirituality is a personal choice and is reflected in every action and reaction each person makes.

There is only one way for everyone to get along: one person gets their way and everyone else is a servant or slave to their wishes.

Respect is earned thru strength (mental or physical). Many have no respect for those that have learned from those that came before them; they believe you can have everything the easy way or by killing your parents (Bill Ayers idea). Now if you are one of those that has learned historical and life's lessons, why would you respect someone that tells you everything you have learned is BS? You look at their life; you see they are not happy, and they still want to 'have control' over your life. Are you willing to respect those that you can clearly see are on the 'wrong' track?

I'm not suggesting that we respect bad behavior. What I am suggesting is that we respect the common values that most of us who are on a spiritual path have. We may come up with different conclusions due to our respective views on the world. We can learn to honor those and appreciate our differences.

It sounds like you are suggesting we 'tolerate' and 'accept' bad behavior. You have your 'ideals' of right and wrong, but will not interfer with someone that chooses to do wrong (it is okay if someone else stops them, but you would 'respect' their choice and 'try to understand').

You mentioning 'killing the unborn'. I would say that as a Buddhist, I notice that some people who are outraged about abortions still support capital punishment. That would be wrong for me, as a Buddhist, but I don't make someone else wrong for their heartfelt beliefs. I disagree with the view that it's ok to murder anyone regardless of how vile the person's behavior is. IMO, all life is sacred because we all have Buddha nature within us. We all have the potential to awaken to enlightenment.

If life is so 'sacred' to you, what do you do to someone that takes others' lives, or injures them in such a' vile way' that you would never want to see the act repeated?
Are you 'disrespecting' the choice of women to kill their unborn children?

When I see someone who I think is on the wrong track, I ask myself whether I have any influence on that person or not? If that person is open to me, I try and have a positive influence on his or her mind and heart. If that person is not open to me I pray for him or her and I acknowledge my own helplessness. I pray to develop more skillfulness so that I can be of greater benefit.

At what point do you take action? Do you say something to them, or do you sit in the shadows and pray, without ever taking a stand, to demonstrate 'your beliefs'?

I disagree with you that we, as a collective, celebrate law breakers. Americans are not supportive of condemned criminals--in fact, we have a rather collective harsh view these days. Read the forum and you'll see what I mean.

I said nothing about 'condemmed prisoners'. Many politicians break the law and are voted back into office. Bill Clinton was defended for his perjury. Illegal immigrants are given 'sancuary cities' (do you know where that originated?) Hollywood regulars openly support dictators. People that scam the 'system' are accepted, and welcomed into most circles.

I don't laugh at those who think morals are important. I laugh at those who think they can impose their morality on others. It doesn't work. It's folly, IMO.

And yet, isn't that what this discussion is about: respect others to 'share' ideas and bring them around. I have been listening to this arguement since the '60s. It does nothing but hurt society in the long run. I have yet to find anyone that can find 'evil' in the ten Commandments; yet everyone thinks it would be terrible to use them as a life guide. Isn't that intellectually dishonest?

As far as 'embracing homosexuality' I don't see that happening at all. What I see is a growing recognition that homosexuals aren't much different from anyone else. We have people who are devoted to and faithful to their mates and people who aren't. That phenomena is the same with heterosexuals. Whatever we can do as a society to support fidelity in relationships (marriage equality is a step in that direction IMO) is the right direction to move.

What benefit does homosexuality bring to society? Would the same benefits be achieved by other unorthodox sexual choices? Aren't you ignoring the harm done to families by 'loosing' a member to homosexuality? Aren't you ignoring the losses of children due to the reduction of the 'gene pool'?

We have enough room in our country for differing views. We have religious freedom. What that means to me, is that I can oppose the death penalty and abortion and be able to converse with someone whose views are the opposite. It means that I can be against abortion without being an anti-abortion activist. I can support marriage equality and my neighbor can vehemently oppose it. We can still be respectful to those who disagree with us even while we ardently defend our passionate views.

This sounds like two people blowing hot air. If you are calling 'respect' listening politely, you may want to check the definition. There is a lot of evidence that 'listening politely' ends in a conquered people. When do you stand up for your beliefs?

Respect is earned by practicing it. It's giving the other person the benefit of the doubt. For me, it's giving a guy like Neubarth the space to condemn me to hell even while I trust that he does so out of altruism. I don't have to like or agree with his views. I just have to breathe the same air as every other being on the planet. I am prepared to respect Neubarth even though he doesn't respect me. I respect that he is entitled to his opinion. Would I prefer that he respect me? Sure. But I accept that my practice is to be patient and kind whatever he says or does.

I'm the one who has to live up to and respect Buddhist ideals. He does not.

Respect is not earned by practicing it. Respect is earned when others see your abilities. Are you good at your profession? Co-workers will respect you. Can you manage money? The people you deal with will respect you. Is your spiritual life in order? Are you a living example of spirituality? The people you speak to will notice and respect you for it? Can you protect yourself? The people that would harm the harmless will respect you. The people that want protection will respect you. Will you fight for your beliefs? The people that would subjugate will learn to respect you.

Manners and politeness are an entirely different matter. Many of the people that 'believe they are on the right path' will listen attentively, knowing there is nothing the person speaking can do for them (they do not respect them). It is an easy way to avoid a conftontation and get back to their personal lives.

 

[Sky Dancer]

[r;quote=logical4u;2450595]

I'm surprised at some of the responses on this thread. I wanted to talk about the importance of respecting other peoples spiritual paths even while we walk our own. What is happening is people are coming out of the woodwork condemning others. It's an interesting phenomena given the OP. Perhaps respect for others isn't possible.

How can respect for others be possible? We kill the unborn. We turn our heads when children are raised by drug addicts and abused. We ignore the pornography industry's side effects of drug addicts, sexual diseases, broken families and wasted lives. We embrace homosexuality that breaks families and dismisses family obligations and responsibilities. We celebrate law breakers. We laugh at those that think morals are important. We don't require our leaders to have integrity (or even common sense).

These are society breakers. The people that do these things are found under every religion and in every nation. Spirituality is a personal choice and is reflected in every action and reaction each person makes.

There is only one way for everyone to get along: one person gets their way and everyone else is a servant or slave to their wishes.

Respect is earned thru strength (mental or physical). Many have no respect for those that have learned from those that came before them; they believe you can have everything the easy way or by killing your parents (Bill Ayers idea). Now if you are one of those that has learned historical and life's lessons, why would you respect someone that tells you everything you have learned is BS? You look at their life; you see they are not happy, and they still want to 'have control' over your life. Are you willing to respect those that you can clearly see are on the 'wrong' track?

It sounds like you are suggesting we 'tolerate' and 'accept' bad behavior. You have your 'ideals' of right and wrong, but will not interfer with someone that chooses to do wrong (it is okay if someone else stops them, but you would 'respect' their choice and 'try to understand').

NO. I'm not suggesting that at all. I don't respect bad behavior. Neither do I feel it's within my ken to tell everyone who is behaving badly that they need to live up to my standards. If they've broken the law, they pay the consequences, and they earn the negative karma. Can you imagine anyone listening to me if all I do is go around judging others and telling them how they should live their lives

If life is so 'sacred' to you, what do you do to someone that takes others' lives, or injures them in such a' vile way' that you would never want to see the act repeated?
Are you 'disrespecting' the choice of women to kill their unborn children?

If someone takes another persons life or committs a heinous act then they forfeit their own. LWOP is an appropriate sentence. They are heirs to their karma. Some people earn hell realms. I don't feel that abortion is appropriate unless the life of the mother is endangered. Nonetheless, it is legal to get abortion in our country and if a woman makes that choice at least she will live. If abortion is illegal then she is more likely to die with the fetus. Loss of two lives is not better than loss of one life. At least if the womans lives she can have an epiphany about her misdeed and work to save lives in the future.

At what point do you take action? Do you say something to them, or do you sit in the shadows and pray, without ever taking a stand, to demonstrate 'your beliefs'?
I take action every day in how I spend my time, energy and money. I take stands all the time. Just because I choose different priorities than you do doesn't make my choices wrong for me.


I said nothing about 'condemmed prisoners'. Many politicians break the law and are voted back into office. Bill Clinton was defended for his perjury. Illegal immigrants are given 'sancuary cities' (do you know where that originated?) Hollywood regulars openly support dictators. People that scam the 'system' are accepted, and welcomed into most circles.
Yes. That is the reality. We all have to deal with it. I don't agree with you that getting enraged and ranting is the way to change cultural or societal values.You have an extremely cynical view of human nature. Pay attention to the goodness in human beings and you may see more of it.


And yet, isn't that what this discussion is about: respect others to 'share' ideas and bring them around. I have been listening to this arguement since the '60s. It does nothing but hurt society in the long run. I have yet to find anyone that can find 'evil' in the ten Commandments; yet everyone thinks it would be terrible to use them as a life guide. Isn't that intellectually dishonest?
I don't think the Ten Commandments is a bad guide, nor do I find any evil in the ten commandments. I just find the five precepts of Buddhism work better for me. I also think in terms of purifying the mind of anger, attachment, jealoousy, pride and ignorance as worthwhile goals. Don't you.


What benefit does homosexuality bring to society? Would the same benefits be achieved by other unorthodox sexual choices? Aren't you ignoring the harm done to families by 'loosing' a member to homosexuality? Aren't you ignoring the losses of children due to the reduction of the 'gene pool'?

[]

[COLOR="Blue"Homosexuality brings benefit to homosexuals, who are human beings. Why? Because it makes them happy to be fully themselves. I know plenty of families who turn their backs on their homosexual relatives and disown them because they are who they are. It is those judgemental and narrow minded individuals who do the harm to the family--not two adults loving each other and being committed to each other's well being.

We have more than enough babies born on this earth I seriously doubt there is loss to the gene pool. Where have you been? Don't you know gay families have children too./COLOR][B[/B]

[COLOR="Blue"We have enough room in our country for differing views. We have religious freedom. What that means to me, is that I can oppose the death penalty and abortion and be able to converse with someone whose views are the opposite. It means that I can be against abortion without being an anti-abortion activist. I can support marriage equality and my neighbor can vehemently oppose it. We can still be respectful to those who disagree with us even while we ardently defend our passionate views.

This sounds like two people blowing hot air. If you are calling 'respect' listening politely, you may want to check the definition. There is a lot of evidence that 'listening politely' ends in a conquered people. When do you stand up for your beliefs?

I stand up for my beliefs. I just don't go around telling people to go to hell.
]

Respect is not earned by practicing it. Respect is earned when others see your abilities. Are you good at your profession? Co-workers will respect you. Can you manage money? The people you deal with will respect you. Is your spiritual life in order? Are you a living example of spirituality? The people you speak to will notice and respect you for it? Can you protect yourself? The people that would harm the harmless will respect you. The people that want protection will respect you. Will you fight for your beliefs? The people that would subjugate will learn to respect you.

Manners and politeness are an entirely different matter. Many of the people that 'believe they are on the right path' will listen attentively, knowing there is nothing the person speaking can do for them (they do not respect them). It is an easy way to avoid a conftontation and get back to their personal lives.

[COLOR="Blue"Respect comes from being respectful to others. It also comes from demonstrating skills. I think it's better to demonstrate my ability to argue my view than it is to call someone a demon or some vile name. Don't you? I do my best to live my Buddhist practice. It's not necessary to get angry and blast someone to smithereens for having a different opinion. You seem angry to me. What allows you to have peace of mind? What allows me to have peace of mind is to work on myself--my own flaws--and not demand that others live up to my ideals. Does it make more sense to put on a pair of shoes or to cover the whole earth in leather to protect your feet?

My posts are hopefully either in bold or blue.][/COLOR]]

 

[logical4u]

[r;quote=logical4u;2450595]

How can respect for others be possible? We kill the unborn. We turn our heads when children are raised by drug addicts and abused. We ignore the pornography industry's side effects of drug addicts, sexual diseases, broken families and wasted lives. We embrace homosexuality that breaks families and dismisses family obligations and responsibilities. We celebrate law breakers. We laugh at those that think morals are important. We don't require our leaders to have integrity (or even common sense).

These are society breakers. The people that do these things are found under every religion and in every nation. Spirituality is a personal choice and is reflected in every action and reaction each person makes.

There is only one way for everyone to get along: one person gets their way and everyone else is a servant or slave to their wishes.

Respect is earned thru strength (mental or physical). Many have no respect for those that have learned from those that came before them; they believe you can have everything the easy way or by killing your parents (Bill Ayers idea). Now if you are one of those that has learned historical and life's lessons, why would you respect someone that tells you everything you have learned is BS? You look at their life; you see they are not happy, and they still want to 'have control' over your life. Are you willing to respect those that you can clearly see are on the 'wrong' track?

It sounds like you are suggesting we 'tolerate' and 'accept' bad behavior. You have your 'ideals' of right and wrong, but will not interfer with someone that chooses to do wrong (it is okay if someone else stops them, but you would 'respect' their choice and 'try to understand').

NO. I'm not suggesting that at all. I don't respect bad behavior. Neither do I feel it's within my ken to tell everyone who is behaving badly that they need to live up to my standards. If they've broken the law, they pay the consequences, and they earn the negative karma. Can you imagine anyone listening to me if all I do is go around judging others and telling them how they should live their lives

If life is so 'sacred' to you, what do you do to someone that takes others' lives, or injures them in such a' vile way' that you would never want to see the act repeated?
Are you 'disrespecting' the choice of women to kill their unborn children?

If someone takes another persons life or committs a heinous act then they forfeit their own. LWOP is an appropriate sentence. They are heirs to their karma. Some people earn hell realms. I don't feel that abortion is appropriate unless the life of the mother is endangered. Nonetheless, it is legal to get abortion in our country and if a woman makes that choice at least she will live. If abortion is illegal then she is more likely to die with the fetus. Loss of two lives is not better than loss of one life. At least if the womans lives she can have an epiphany about her misdeed and work to save lives in the future.

At what point do you take action? Do you say something to them, or do you sit in the shadows and pray, without ever taking a stand, to demonstrate 'your beliefs'?
I take action every day in how I spend my time, energy and money. I take stands all the time. Just because I choose different priorities than you do doesn't make my choices wrong for me.


I said nothing about 'condemmed prisoners'. Many politicians break the law and are voted back into office. Bill Clinton was defended for his perjury. Illegal immigrants are given 'sancuary cities' (do you know where that originated?) Hollywood regulars openly support dictators. People that scam the 'system' are accepted, and welcomed into most circles.
Yes. That is the reality. We all have to deal with it. I don't agree with you that getting enraged and ranting is the way to change cultural or societal values.You have an extremely cynical view of human nature. Pay attention to the goodness in human beings and you may see more of it.


And yet, isn't that what this discussion is about: respect others to 'share' ideas and bring them around. I have been listening to this arguement since the '60s. It does nothing but hurt society in the long run. I have yet to find anyone that can find 'evil' in the ten Commandments; yet everyone thinks it would be terrible to use them as a life guide. Isn't that intellectually dishonest?
I don't think the Ten Commandments is a bad guide, nor do I find any evil in the ten commandments. I just find the five precepts of Buddhism work better for me. I also think in terms of purifying the mind of anger, attachment, jealoousy, pride and ignorance as worthwhile goals. Don't you.


What benefit does homosexuality bring to society? Would the same benefits be achieved by other unorthodox sexual choices? Aren't you ignoring the harm done to families by 'loosing' a member to homosexuality? Aren't you ignoring the losses of children due to the reduction of the 'gene pool'?

[]

[COLOR="Blue"Homosexuality brings benefit to homosexuals, who are human beings. Why? Because it makes them happy to be fully themselves. I know plenty of families who turn their backs on their homosexual relatives and disown them because they are who they are. It is those judgemental and narrow minded individuals who do the harm to the family--not two adults loving each other and being committed to each other's well being.

We have more than enough babies born on this earth I seriously doubt there is loss to the gene pool. Where have you been? Don't you know gay families have children too./COLOR][B[/B]



This sounds like two people blowing hot air. If you are calling 'respect' listening politely, you may want to check the definition. There is a lot of evidence that 'listening politely' ends in a conquered people. When do you stand up for your beliefs?

I stand up for my beliefs. I just don't go around telling people to go to hell.
]

Respect is not earned by practicing it. Respect is earned when others see your abilities. Are you good at your profession? Co-workers will respect you. Can you manage money? The people you deal with will respect you. Is your spiritual life in order? Are you a living example of spirituality? The people you speak to will notice and respect you for it? Can you protect yourself? The people that would harm the harmless will respect you. The people that want protection will respect you. Will you fight for your beliefs? The people that would subjugate will learn to respect you.

Manners and politeness are an entirely different matter. Many of the people that 'believe they are on the right path' will listen attentively, knowing there is nothing the person speaking can do for them (they do not respect them). It is an easy way to avoid a conftontation and get back to their personal lives.

[COLOR="Blue"Respect comes from being respectful to others. It also comes from demonstrating skills. I think it's better to demonstrate my ability to argue my view than it is to call someone a demon or some vile name. Don't you? I do my best to live my Buddhist practice. It's not necessary to get angry and blast someone to smithereens for having a different opinion. You seem angry to me. What allows you to have peace of mind? What allows me to have peace of mind is to work on myself--my own flaws--and not demand that others live up to my ideals. Does it make more sense to put on a pair of shoes or to cover the whole earth in leather to protect your feet?

My posts are hopefully either in bold or blue.][/COLOR]]

Did I call you any names? Did I tell anyone to go to hell?
I feel your 'discussion' is a passive aggressive style that commits you to nothing, and hold no one responsible for their own actions. It is like you just want a REACTION (attention).

 

[Sky Dancer]

It sounds like you are suggesting we 'tolerate' and 'accept' bad behavior. You have your 'ideals' of right and wrong, but will not interfer with someone that chooses to do wrong (it is okay if someone else stops them, but you would 'respect' their choice and 'try to understand').

NO. I'm not suggesting that at all. I don't respect bad behavior. Neither do I feel it's within my ken to tell everyone who is behaving badly that they need to live up to my standards. If they've broken the law, they pay the consequences, and they earn the negative karma. Can you imagine anyone listening to me if all I do is go around judging others and telling them how they should live their lives

If life is so 'sacred' to you, what do you do to someone that takes others' lives, or injures them in such a' vile way' that you would never want to see the act repeated?
Are you 'disrespecting' the choice of women to kill their unborn children?

If someone takes another persons life or committs a heinous act then they forfeit their own. LWOP is an appropriate sentence. They are heirs to their karma. Some people earn hell realms. I don't feel that abortion is appropriate unless the life of the mother is endangered. Nonetheless, it is legal to get abortion in our country and if a woman makes that choice at least she will live. If abortion is illegal then she is more likely to die with the fetus. Loss of two lives is not better than loss of one life. At least if the womans lives she can have an epiphany about her misdeed and work to save lives in the future.

At what point do you take action? Do you say something to them, or do you sit in the shadows and pray, without ever taking a stand, to demonstrate 'your beliefs'?
I take action every day in how I spend my time, energy and money. I take stands all the time. Just because I choose different priorities than you do doesn't make my choices wrong for me.


I said nothing about 'condemmed prisoners'. Many politicians break the law and are voted back into office. Bill Clinton was defended for his perjury. Illegal immigrants are given 'sancuary cities' (do you know where that originated?) Hollywood regulars openly support dictators. People that scam the 'system' are accepted, and welcomed into most circles.
Yes. That is the reality. We all have to deal with it. I don't agree with you that getting enraged and ranting is the way to change cultural or societal values.You have an extremely cynical view of human nature. Pay attention to the goodness in human beings and you may see more of it.


And yet, isn't that what this discussion is about: respect others to 'share' ideas and bring them around. I have been listening to this arguement since the '60s. It does nothing but hurt society in the long run. I have yet to find anyone that can find 'evil' in the ten Commandments; yet everyone thinks it would be terrible to use them as a life guide. Isn't that intellectually dishonest?
I don't think the Ten Commandments is a bad guide, nor do I find any evil in the ten commandments. I just find the five precepts of Buddhism work better for me. I also think in terms of purifying the mind of anger, attachment, jealoousy, pride and ignorance as worthwhile goals. Don't you.


What benefit does homosexuality bring to society? Would the same benefits be achieved by other unorthodox sexual choices? Aren't you ignoring the harm done to families by 'loosing' a member to homosexuality? Aren't you ignoring the losses of children due to the reduction of the 'gene pool'?

[]

[COLOR="Blue"Homosexuality brings benefit to homosexuals, who are human beings. Why? Because it makes them happy to be fully themselves. I know plenty of families who turn their backs on their homosexual relatives and disown them because they are who they are. It is those judgemental and narrow minded individuals who do the harm to the family--not two adults loving each other and being committed to each other's well being.

We have more than enough babies born on this earth I seriously doubt there is loss to the gene pool. Where have you been? Don't you know gay families have children too./COLOR][B[/B]



This sounds like two people blowing hot air. If you are calling 'respect' listening politely, you may want to check the definition. There is a lot of evidence that 'listening politely' ends in a conquered people. When do you stand up for your beliefs?

I stand up for my beliefs. I just don't go around telling people to go to hell.
]


Respect is not earned by practicing it. Respect is earned when others see your abilities. Are you good at your profession? Co-workers will respect you. Can you manage money? The people you deal with will respect you. Is your spiritual life in order? Are you a living example of spirituality? The people you speak to will notice and respect you for it? Can you protect yourself? The people that would harm the harmless will respect you. The people that want protection will respect you. Will you fight for your beliefs? The people that would subjugate will learn to respect you.

Manners and politeness are an entirely different matter. Many of the people that 'believe they are on the right path' will listen attentively, knowing there is nothing the person speaking can do for them (they do not respect them). It is an easy way to avoid a conftontation and get back to their personal lives.

[COLOR="Blue"Respect comes from being respectful to others. It also comes from demonstrating skills. I think it's better to demonstrate my ability to argue my view than it is to call someone a demon or some vile name. Don't you? I do my best to live my Buddhist practice. It's not necessary to get angry and blast someone to smithereens for having a different opinion. You seem angry to me. What allows you to have peace of mind? What allows me to have peace of mind is to work on myself--my own flaws--and not demand that others live up to my ideals. Does it make more sense to put on a pair of shoes or to cover the whole earth in leather to protect your feet?

My posts are hopefully either in bold or blue.][/COLOR]]

Did I call you any names? Did I tell anyone to go to hell?
I feel your 'discussion' is a passive aggressive style that commits you to nothing, and hold no one responsible for their own actions. It is like you just want a REACTION (attention).

In that case, I withdraw my interest in discussing the topic with you. You just labeled me as passive aggressive after I spent alot of time on that post answering your questions. I thought you were sincere. I'm sorry if I misjudged your enthusiasm.

I am quite committed to my beliefs and point of view. I'm amazed that you could read my post and not see that.

It's not very Buddhist of me, lol.

 

[bruzz]

That previous exchange is proof of how being passive and accepting accomplishes nothing. It allows the scondrels of the earth to do as they wish, because followers of this life philosophy have no spine or beliefs in what may be right or wrong, ie there is no moral guidance. This contrast with the controlling religious fundamentalists. What is needed is to stike a middle ground of acceptance for people who are different from us, but an iron fist for more extreme immorality. Right now, the new agers seem unable to seperate people who are just different (religion, race/ethnicity, gender) vs people who are truly immoral and in need of guidance from society (male homosexuals, pedophiles).

 

[Sky Dancer]

That previous exchange is proof of how being passive and accepting accomplishes nothing. It allows the scondrels of the earth to do as they wish, because followers of this life philosophy have no spine or beliefs in what may be right or wrong, ie there is no moral guidance. This contrast with the controlling religious fundamentalists. What is needed is to stike a middle ground of acceptance for people who are different from us, but an iron fist for more extreme immorality. Right now, the new agers seem unable to seperate people who are just different (religion, race/ethnicity, gender) vs people who are truly immoral and in need of guidance from society (male homosexuals, pedophiles).

Buddhists are not 'new agers'. I have no problem separating someone who is just different from someone who is truly immoral. Do you?

 

[bruzz]

That previous exchange is proof of how being passive and accepting accomplishes nothing. It allows the scondrels of the earth to do as they wish, because followers of this life philosophy have no spine or beliefs in what may be right or wrong, ie there is no moral guidance. This contrast with the controlling religious fundamentalists. What is needed is to stike a middle ground of acceptance for people who are different from us, but an iron fist for more extreme immorality. Right now, the new agers seem unable to seperate people who are just different (religion, race/ethnicity, gender) vs people who are truly immoral and in need of guidance from society (male homosexuals, pedophiles).

Buddhists are not 'new agers'. I have no problem separating someone who is just different from someone who is truly immoral. Do you?

No i do not. I try not to discrimanate against people of a different religion (i am secular), race or ethnicity or against women. I can see people who are truly immoral based on my own experiences and thoughts.

 

[Madeline]

What's immoral about male homosexuals?

 

[HUGGY]

What's immoral about male homosexuals?

From the standpoint of a woman it may seem a valid question. From the point of view of a "normal" hetrosexual man it is a questionable lifestyle. I wouldn't characterise homosexuality as immoral as much as abhorant. Playing the role as a female of having a penis in your mouth and being penetrated by a penis as a natural funtion of your sexuality probably does not make you uncomfortable. What you fail to recognise is a "man" rejects acivity associated with another mans penis. If you cannot understand that then you are not being "open" ... you are being insensitive to men.

 

[bruzz]

What's immoral about male homosexuals?

Jesus h christ on a trampoline, not another one. I already have a thread on this subject, i'm not going into it again here.