Making Gasoline/Diesel More Afforedable

[KissMy]

Let's keep it simple folks.
This was a sham from day one. Don't try to manicure the bullshit.

Please explain the 45 cent rise in gasoline when ethanol got a 45 cent tax hike.

Note the price spike in gasoline at the pump when taxes were raised on ethanol on December 31, 2011.

Me? Why?

I've followed this program from its infancy.

There is a singular purpose to this program- get that extra bushel of grain to market, and line the pockets of agriculture.

I like ya, Ms. My. But I have an intense disdain for the agriculture industry. They railroaded this bullshit based on shady science and lie after lie. Screw them and their cock-eyed schemes.

Rockefeller railroaded ethanol by paying congress to ban it with prohibition. Farmers can't force congress to do shit because we are less than 1% of the population & are not rich. The EPA found MTBE to be a threat to the public & mandated replacing it with ethanol. The farmer had nothing to do with that. We also had nothing to do with the "God Made A Farmer" Super-Bowel advertisement that you hate. That was all Dodge motor company.

 

[Mr. H.]

You are well aware of the power of farm-state votes, and farm-state legislators.
Political campaigns were made or broken based upon a candidate's stance on ethanol.

The EPA re-wrote emissions rules to accommodate ethanol blends. And I repeat- ethanol pollutes.
Ethanol plants pollute.

It's snake oil, it's based on bullshit, and it has accomplished one - and only one- of its intended goals... to create a new market for corn.

 

[KissMy]

You are well aware of the power of farm-state votes, and farm-state legislators.
Political campaigns were made or broken based upon a candidate's stance on ethanol.

The EPA re-wrote emissions rules to accommodate ethanol blends. And I repeat- ethanol pollutes.
Ethanol plants pollute.

It's snake oil, it's based on bullshit, and it has accomplished one - and only one- of its intended goals... to create a new market for corn.

The EPA fined the Tesoro oil refinery in Alaska $1.1 million dollars yesterday. Did farmers make that happen?

The EPA nails farmers just like they do oil companies. If pig shit washes into the ditch or your lagoon floods over in a storm, you can bet you will get fined at least $10,000 a day until it gets cleaned up. Same with farm fertilizer & chemicals. Hell the EPA fined Kansas cattle farmer Norbert Hornung $250,000 & threatened 3 years of jail time because his cattle lagoon overflowed.

The EPA enviro wackos do what ever the hell they want.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

You are wrong! Ethanol was lowering gasoline prices at the pump by 25% that equals $1 a gallon on $4 gas. We can't mandate 30% ethanol because shortage & imbalances will cause prices to rise. 10% ethanol was only mandated to replace MTBE because it contaminated the water supply.

There use to be lower taxes on ethanol at the pump. But since idiots in congress raised ethanol taxes December 31, 2011 the price you pay for gas & ethanol skyrocketed 45 cents a gallon. Enjoy bending over & taking it up the wallet even more at the pump. Ethanol held gasoline prices down over $1 a gallon. If you idiots keep on believing the garbage the oil companies keep spewing & ban ethanol, gas price will increase another $1 a gallon to stay permanently over $5 a gallon.

Note the price spike in gasoline at the pump when taxes were raised on ethanol on December 31, 2011. Enjoy the higher prices you tax & spend idiots!

We produce enough ethanol to supply 15% of the gasoline in this country. That means E85 sales were over 5% of pump sales & that competition was holding gasoline prices down. Since the ethanol tax increase made it less competitive it caused the ethanol storage to swell & production falling since 1/1/2012. Gasoline demand has increased by 5% since that time.

Ethanol is still replacing 10% of gasoline so it still holds down prices but ending the ethanol tax break most certainly increased the price by 45 cents at the pump. I do know it was holding gas prices down by at least 25%. Here is how I can prove it.

In the winter the demand for heating-oil/diesel-fuel is high & gasoline is low. That makes gasoline a bi-product from the barrels of crude oil they refine into heating oil. So the gas price dropped below & heating-oil/diesel-fuel would rise above gasoline every winter.

The exact opposite happened every summer.

In the summer the demand for gasoline is high & heating-oil/diesel-fuel is low. That makes heating-oil/diesel-fuel a bi-product from the barrels of crude oil they refine into gasoline. So the heating-oil/diesel-fuel price dropped below & gasoline would rise above heating-oil/diesel-fuel every winter.

Before the big rise in Ethanol production this translated into gasoline being at least 25% higher than diesel-fuel at the pump in the summer & diesel-fuel costing at least 25% more than gasoline in the winter.

Now in the past 4 years since ethanol production ramped up gasoline prices never even get as high as diesel-fuel even in the summer. At current prices that means Ethanol is holding Gasoline prices at the pump down by at least a $1 a gallon. Last years drought plus this years corn seed shortage & to cold & wet planting season has stopped ethanol exports & triggered importing for the first time. Gas prices are higher because of less ethanol competition.

You are wrong! Ethanol was lowering gasoline prices at the pump by 25% that equals $1 a gallon on $4 gas.

How does adding 10% ethanol lower the price 25%? Show me your math.

There use to be lower taxes on ethanol at the pump. But since idiots in congress raised ethanol taxes December 31, 2011 the price you pay for gas & ethanol skyrocketed 45 cents a gallon.

If ethanol rose 45 cents, that would raise the price of E10, 4.5 cents.

We produce enough ethanol to supply 15% of the gasoline in this country.

Why not make it easier to drill for oil, and eat our food, instead of burning it?

At current prices that means Ethanol is holding Gasoline prices at the pump down by at least a $1 a gallon.

That's an awesome theory! Let's end the mandate, if it makes sense economically, they'll still use it.

Show your math? What a retard! Prices & percentage change in supply are not linear.

If 100 people want 100 gallons of gas but suddenly there is only 95 gallons available, prices don't just rise 5%. They rise until 5% can't afford gas.

A 45 cent tax hike on a competitors product means demand will drive your price up 45 cents before consumers demand the competition product again. The 4.5 cent increase was only for the 10% mixed in the gas, the rest was from E85 being completive until gas rose 40 cents.

Corn Ethanol creates more food than Corn alone does. Prior to ethanol the corn was just fed to livestock. Livestock evolved as foragers, not raw corn eaters. Animals eating corn emit methane gas & pass most of the nourishment of the corn out into manure that emits methane & pollutes water. Methane is 15 times worse on the environment as CO2. Ethanol plants grind, cook & use enzymes to breakdown corn into energy & protein. Ethanol plants turn all the starch in corn that animals emit into the atmosphere as methane, into Ethanol before feeding it. All the corn protein (that builds muscle steak & hamburger in animals) remains as a highly digestible ethanol plant by-product called DDG livestock feed that grows animals 25% faster on 30% less feed than corn or grass does. The fact is if you are in livestock production, you can not be competitive unless you are feeding Ethanol DDG Feed! Also ethanol plants run on waste heat from power plants & steel mills. They do not consume raw energy to generate Ethanol. The real EROEI for Corn Ethanol is 3 to 1 which is higher than Oil from Canada's Tar Sands.

Steel refineries waste heat create steam that spins a turbine that generates electricity that powers the grid & ethanol plant. The exhaust from the steam turbine heats the mash at the ethanol plant. The waste heat from the ethanol plant heats greenhouses that grow food. The ethanol mash is only heated for fermentation & no longer heated to a boil to distill it. Ethanol is evacuated from the mash. Other ethanol plants are built next to a Natural Gas Turbine Power plant. The waste heat from the Power plants NG Turbine went to a boiler & made steam to power a steam turbine that generated power for the grid & power plant. The heat from boiler vent stack & exhausted steam from turbine heated the mash for fermentation & ethanol was evacuated from the mash. Heat from the mash heated buildings.

If 100 people want 100 gallons of gas but suddenly there is only 95 gallons available, prices don't just rise 5%. They rise until 5% can't afford gas.

When is there only 95 gallons available?
The only time I can think of such a thing is when government disrupts supply.

Corn Ethanol creates more food than Corn alone does.

That is awesome. Then you don't need government forcing the market to do something that makes so much sense.

Methane is 15 times worse on the environment as CO2.

Since CO2 isn't bad for the environment, 15 times zero equals zero.

The real EROEI for Corn Ethanol is 3 to 1 which is higher than Oil from Canada's Tar Sands.

Excellent! End the mandate. It's obviously not needed.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Let's keep it simple folks.
This was a sham from day one. Don't try to manicure the bullshit.

Please explain the 45 cent rise in gasoline when ethanol got a 45 cent tax hike. Please explain why gasoline used to be 25% higher than diesel this time of year prior to ethanol, but is now lower than diesel.

Note the price spike in gasoline at the pump when taxes were raised on ethanol on December 31, 2011.

Please explain why gasoline used to be 25% higher than diesel this time of year prior to ethanol, but is now lower than diesel.


Probably doesn't have anything to do with new government rules on diesel. LOL!

 

[Mr. H.]

The EPA enviro wackos do what ever the hell they want.

... like green-light the ethanol nonsense.

Agriculture has fouled our environment for a hundred years, and it will continue to do so in perpetuity. The Mississississississippi is a shit hole, the Gulf of Mexico is a big dead zone, and the Ogallala aquifer is polluted and drained.

But oh noze, we can't have the Keystone XL pipeline crossing the Ogallala for fear that it MIGHT spring a leak.

Ag gets the pass, the special treatment, the exemptions and deferments.
Ethanol was never needed, but it was WANTED by the ag industry. Now they want 15% ETOH blended with gasolines? Hell, they can't EXPORT that shit fast enough.

No, ethanol is a cottage industry created by special interest and political jockeying.

 

[KissMy]

The EPA enviro wackos do what ever the hell they want.

... like green-light the ethanol nonsense.

Agriculture has fouled our environment for a hundred years, and it will continue to do so in perpetuity. The Mississississississippi is a shit hole, the Gulf of Mexico is a big dead zone, and the Ogallala aquifer is polluted and drained.

But oh noze, we can't have the Keystone XL pipeline crossing the Ogallala for fear that it MIGHT spring a leak.

Ag gets the pass, the special treatment, the exemptions and deferments.
Ethanol was never needed, but it was WANTED by the ag industry. Now they want 15% ETOH blended with gasolines? Hell, they can't EXPORT that shit fast enough.

No, ethanol is a cottage industry created by special interest and political jockeying.

US farmers get the blame every time city people or companies dump their crap into the rivers & cause a dead zone. Big retailers like Walmart, HomeDepot, Lowes, etc. park skid loads of chemicals, fertilizers, herbicides & pesticides out in parking lots & garden centers at these retailers. Rain washes that stuff from leaking & broken bags down into the storm drain & out into the Mississippi River.

Also business & residents use way more of this stuff per acre than farmers ever do. All this washes off their yards, parking lots, sidewalks & streets down into the storm drain & out into the Mississippi River. But who gets blamed? The Farmers.

 

[Mr. H.]

Yes, dear. Whatever you say.

 

[Mr. H.]

A half-billion acres of cropland in the U.S. and you bark about pallets at Wal Mart.

 

[Mr. H.]

I personally know many farmers. I've worked side-by-side with them for the last 36 years.
Most are extremely hard-working honest dependable reliable trustworthy individuals.
But I've run across some mighty unscrupulous fuckers too.

Yet that industry as a whole is one of smoke and mirrors that will stop at nothing to push that incremental bushel of grain to market.

Pork, the other white meat. Beef, it's what's for dinner. God made a farmer.

It's just so much marketing bullshit. Getting paid for fallow ground, getting paid when the weather goes south, getting paid when prices crater. So many buffers and safety nets, it's hard to fail.

You are in the 21st century and it's time you were treated as such. Grow up and grow out of it.

 

[Glensather]

Just a thought, because I'm an eternal optimist.

When/If solar power or wind power or whatever becomes affordable enough that entire states can run on it without fear of blackouts, and gets to a state where they can compete with fossil fuels... would that lower the cost of oil? If less people need it, would it lower it, or would the prices raise due to lack of demand?

This isn't some environmentalist "save the forests" bullshit - I want the Keystone XL pipeline used so bad I can't stand it, mostly because I want the country off of foreign oil - but without that option, I feel that other forms of energy will be required.

I know this isn't relevant to the ethanol debate currently at hand, but at the same time, it may be: If alternative energy became highly affordable, and downright competitive with the oil companies, what would happen to the price of oil?

 

[Mr. H.]

If alternative energy became highly affordable, and downright competitive with the oil companies, what would happen to the price of oil?

The U.S. imports 11 million barrels of oil per day.
Do the math, Charlie.

 

[Glensather]

If alternative energy became highly affordable, and downright competitive with the oil companies, what would happen to the price of oil?

The U.S. imports 11 million barrels of oil per day.
Do the math, Charlie.

Its why I say "If".
I know we import a fuckton of oil.

 

[Mr. H.]

Thank you, Dr. fuckton.

 

[Glensather]

Thank you, Dr. fuckton.

That's right, just call me Doctor.

 

[itfitzme]

- I want the Keystone XL pipeline... because I want the country off of foreign oil

Surely you know, that Canadanis a foreign country, that evem without Stage III. we are already shipping it to Oklahoma. The Keystone XL stage three just adds an additional leg to Texas

It will not increass US supply or drop prices. It is a global market.

 

[edthecynic]

- I want the Keystone XL pipeline... because I want the country off of foreign oil

Surely you know, that Canadanis a foreign country, that evem without Stage III. we are already shipping it to Oklahoma. The Keystone XL stage three just adds an additional leg to Texas

It will not increass US supply or drop prices. It is a global market.

It will actually do the opposite. The Canadian tar sand that is piped to the Midwest can only be sold in the USA. But the tar sand piped into Texas can be exported thus reducing the US supply of Canadian tar sand and increasing gas prices here.

 

[editec]

Cap regular unleaded and diesel prices to 40 cents above taxes at the pump nationwide.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

- I want the Keystone XL pipeline... because I want the country off of foreign oil

Surely you know, that Canadanis a foreign country, that evem without Stage III. we are already shipping it to Oklahoma. The Keystone XL stage three just adds an additional leg to Texas

It will not increass US supply or drop prices. It is a global market.

It will actually do the opposite. The Canadian tar sand that is piped to the Midwest can only be sold in the USA. But the tar sand piped into Texas can be exported thus reducing the US supply of Canadian tar sand and increasing gas prices here.

The Canadian tar sand that is piped to the Midwest can only be sold in the USA.

What about the stuff that gets shipped to the west coast of Canada and then to China?

 

[KissMy]

Never mind that government must force private land owners to surrender their property through eminent domain for the Keystone XL Pipeline.

Oil supporters cried like babies & blocked it when Poet Ethanol wanted eminent domain for their Ethanol Pipeline. Plus oil companies won't allow ethanol in their pipeline. Oil pukes force ethanol to be trucked to force less competition & more public resistance to it's production.