Lost Cause: What Were They Thinking?

[oldfart]

You have that wrong. The immorality resided entirely within the mind of the tyrant...Dishonest Abe.

No, it rested with the traitors who would tear the Union asunder for the sake of the evil institution of slavery; an institution by which very few of the men who gave their lives in gallant battle ever directly benefited.


"One of them would make war rather than let the nation survive; and the other would accept war rather than let it perish."

Then you must conclude that Americans who fought for and believed in independence from Great Britain were traitors too....just as Dishonest Abe must have believed.

To make that argument you would have to compare the justification which makes up virtually all of the Declaration of Independence with the similar listing provided in the Ordinances of Succession. Good luck with that one. I haven't seen any whiney-ass Southern apologist even give it a try. "They won't stop talking about our slavekeeping" doesn't seem to rise to the level of Locke's Rights of Man.

 

[oldfart]

Calling generals of the war traitors is quite disgusting.

The fact that they turned traitor is what is disgusting.

Next he will be telling us what fine fellows the German and Japanese generals running the POW camps were.

 

[Old Rocks]

Calling generals of the war traitors is quite disgusting. Some of those who served the confederate army did so out of love for their home states, and were not entirely on board with the notions of the state body. But they fought and fought honorably for that in which they believed. And some later returned to union positions and govt. posts. It's extremely ignorant to call anyone of the southern civil war time persuasion, traitors.

That's all

They took an oath to the United States when they accepted a position in the Army of the United States. When they broke that oath and fought for the Confederacy, they were traitors. Had Lincoln been interested in carrying out the letter of the law, he could have had them hung as such. But Lincoln was interested in healing the nation.

As far as the fortunes of the war, the issue never was in doubt. Sam Houston of Texas stated exactly what was going to happen. The South, because of the institution of slavery, lacked any kind of industrial capacity. They had far less people than the northern states. And the average educational level was far lower. They simply could not win. As soon as the North got serious, they simply drove them into the ground.

 

[MuadDib]

One of the only advantages the Southern traitors had when they instigated the long-brewing American Civil War was the benefit of some brilliant military minds. They had to know that they had little to no chance of prevailing. Sure, both sides initially envisioned a very brief struggle, but when it became clear after Bull Run that it wouldn't be a quick one-and-done for either side the Confederate traitors had to know they had little to no hope over the long run. The British and the French may have gotten their hopes up about recognition, but surely calmer heads in the South had to know how thin that hope really was.

They essentially performed human sacrifice in outrageous number for a hopeless, immoral, untenable cause. A waste of so many courageous, honorable men for the vainglorious obstinacy of a few.

Rebels...Confederates...
They were pardoned as the common criminals they were

If you're talking about common criminals, that would be William T. Sherman. His "bummers" ravaged through Georgia burning homes, raping the women, destroying the crops, killing their livestock, stealing their food, and stealing their personal possessions. Blacks got it worse than the whites did.

Frankly, Sherman, who was certifiably crazy, "Spoons" Butler, and a number of other Union generals should have been hanged for the war crimes they committed.

The Confederates were neither traitors nor criminals. They were patriots who lost a war trying to prevent the mess we're in now.

 

[Unkotare]

The Confederates were neither traitors nor criminals. They were patriots who lost a war trying to prevent the mess we're in now.

Many of them were gallant and brave, but it cannot be avoided that they were ultimately traitors.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

No, and you have just proven yourself "dishonest" with the above post.

I am well aware of your weak debating skills, but when one makes a valid point, responding with you are "dishonest," only further confirms my low opinion of you.

Can you please explain why my post is dishonest? If not, I understand entirely.

You introduced the word "dishonest" into this discussion, and you did so in the course of asserting something that Lincoln "must have believed" without a shred of evidence that he did or would have thought so. That is dishonest.

Before 1861 were did it say a state could not remove itself from the union?
southerners traitors? Gipper was right you should also call these men traitors they at one time held an allegiance to the crown as subjects

Signers of the Declaration of Independence
John Adams
Samuel Adams
Josiah Bartlett
Carter Braxton
Charles Carroll
Samuel Chase
Abraham Clark
George Clymer
William Ellery
William Floyd
Benjamin Franklin
Elbridge Gerry
Button Gwinnett
Lyman Hall
John Hancock (presiding)
Benjamin Harrison
John Hart
Joseph Hewes
Thomas Heyward, Jr.
William Hooper
Stephen Hopkins
Francis Hopkinson
Samuel Huntington
Thomas Jefferson
Francis Lightfoot Lee
Richard Henry Lee
Francis Lewis
Philip Livingston
Thomas Lynch, Jr.
Thomas McKean
Arthur Middleton
Lewis Morris
Robert Morris
John Morton
Thomas Nelson, Jr.
William Paca
Robert Treat Paine
John Penn
George Read
Caesar Rodney
George Ross
Benjamin Rush
Edward Rutledge
Roger Sherman
James Smith
Richard Stockton
Thomas Stone
George Taylor
Charles Thomson, Secretary (attesting)
Matthew Thornton
George Walton
William Whipple
William Williams
James Wilson
John Witherspoon
Oliver Wolcott
George Wythe

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Patriots and traitors are dictated by the victor.

 

[Meathead]

The OP labels them traitors ignorant of the fact that since the beginning of the Republic the allegiance to the states trumped that of the Federation. In their minds they were in fact patriots, and that self-righteous dupes don't understand that 150 years on is not going to change that.

 

[paperview]

Unless something decisive is done, I again ask, What is to stop this agitation before the great and final object at which it aims--the abolition of slavery in the States--is consummated? Is it, then, not certain that if something is not done to arrest it, the South will be forced to choose between abolition and secession?"

- John C. Calhoun, March 4, 1850

Source: John C. Calhoun on the Clay Compromise Measures - 1850

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Unless something decisive is done, I again ask, What is to stop this agitation before the great and final object at which it aims--the abolition of slavery in the States--is consummated? Is it, then, not certain that if something is not done to arrest it, the South will be forced to choose between abolition and secession?"

- John C. Calhoun, March 4, 1850

Source: John C. Calhoun on the Clay Compromise Measures - 1850

Straw man
What does one of the cause for the civil war have to do with southerns being traitors or patriots?

 

[Unkotare]

southerners traitors?

Yes, traitors. And your referencing the American Revolution is an obvious and transparent Red Herring, LARPer.

 

[Unkotare]

The OP labels them traitors ignorant of the fact that since the beginning of the Republic the allegiance to the states trumped that of the Federation.

The American Civil War did not take place at the beginning of the Republic, nor were we governed under the Articles of Confederation at that point. Playing the apologist for traitors only demeans you.

 

[Meathead]

The OP labels them traitors ignorant of the fact that since the beginning of the Republic the allegiance to the states trumped that of the Federation.

The American Civil War did not take place at the beginning of the Republic, nor were we governed under the Articles of Confederation at that point. Playing the apologist for traitors only demeans you.

I am not an apologist. There is no reason to be. They identified with their states and were patriotic to them. It is akin to calling Washington and those who fought alongside him traitors.

You are the one demeaned.

 

[Unkotare]

It is akin to calling Washington and those who fought alongside him traitors...

Red Herring, apologist.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

southerners traitors?

Yes, traitors. And your referencing the American Revolution is an obvious and transparent Red Herring, LARPer.

Red Herring? If stating the obvious is a Red Herring, your traitorous claim is a knee jerk reaction used by trolls.
Plus your deleting my comment, as if no one can click on the arrow and see that I posted this

Before 1861 were did it say a state could not remove itself from the union?
southerners traitors? Gipper was right you should also call these men traitors they at one time held an allegiance to the crown as subjects

Signers of the Declaration of Independence
John Adams
Samuel Adams
Josiah Bartlett
Carter Braxton
Charles Carroll
Samuel Chase
Abraham Clark
George Clymer
William Ellery
William Floyd
Benjamin Franklin
Elbridge Gerry
Button Gwinnett
Lyman Hall
John Hancock (presiding)
Benjamin Harrison
John Hart
Joseph Hewes
Thomas Heyward, Jr.
William Hooper
Stephen Hopkins
Francis Hopkinson
Samuel Huntington
Thomas Jefferson
Francis Lightfoot Lee
Richard Henry Lee
Francis Lewis
Philip Livingston
Thomas Lynch, Jr.
Thomas McKean
Arthur Middleton
Lewis Morris
Robert Morris
John Morton
Thomas Nelson, Jr.
William Paca
Robert Treat Paine
John Penn
George Read
Caesar Rodney
George Ross
Benjamin Rush
Edward Rutledge
Roger Sherman
James Smith
Richard Stockton
Thomas Stone
George Taylor
Charles Thomson, Secretary (attesting)
Matthew Thornton
George Walton
William Whipple
William Williams
James Wilson
John Witherspoon
Oliver Wolcott
George Wythe

The bold is what you left out.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

The OP labels them traitors ignorant of the fact that since the beginning of the Republic the allegiance to the states trumped that of the Federation.

The American Civil War did not take place at the beginning of the Republic, nor were we governed under the Articles of Confederation at that point. Playing the apologist for traitors only demeans you.

I am not an apologist. There is no reason to be. They identified with their states and were patriotic to them. It is akin to calling Washington and those who fought alongside him traitors.

You are the one demeaned.

He can't comprehend what you're saying.

 

[paperview]

The OP labels them traitors ignorant of the fact that since the beginning of the Republic the allegiance to the states trumped that of the Federation.

The American Civil War did not take place at the beginning of the Republic, nor were we governed under the Articles of Confederation at that point. Playing the apologist for traitors only demeans you.

I am not an apologist. There is no reason to be. They identified with their states and were patriotic to them. It is akin to calling Washington and those who fought alongside him traitors.

You are the one demeaned.

Secession =/= Revolution.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

The American Civil War did not take place at the beginning of the Republic, nor were we governed under the Articles of Confederation at that point. Playing the apologist for traitors only demeans you.

I am not an apologist. There is no reason to be. They identified with their states and were patriotic to them. It is akin to calling Washington and those who fought alongside him traitors.

You are the one demeaned.

Secession =/= Revolution.

Patriots and traitors are dictated by the victor.

 

[Unkotare]

southerners traitors?

Yes, traitors. And your referencing the American Revolution is an obvious and transparent Red Herring, LARPer.

Red Herring?

Yes, Red Herring. Faulty analogy if you prefer.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Yes, traitors. And your referencing the American Revolution is an obvious and transparent Red Herring, LARPer.

Red Herring?

you prefer.

You are correct I prefer that you are wrong.