CDZ "Lolita complex"

[Indofred]

I've posted this in CDZ because I don't want to see the usual comments regarding any given group, but get a serious discussion regarding this topic.

Paedophilia is usually suggested to be the domain of a very few perverts with serious mental problems, but this piece by the BBC has confirmed my belief, it's far more than a tiny minority.

BBC News - Why hasn t Japan banned child-porn comics

Japan's comics and cartoons - known as manga and anime - are a huge cultural industry and famous around the world. But some are shocking, featuring children in sexually explicit scenarios.

"Everyone knows that child abuse is not a good thing," Hide (one of the event organisers) says. "But having that kind of emotion is free, enjoying imagining some sexual situation with a child is not prohibited."

"I like young-girl sexual creations, Lolicon is just one hobby of my many hobbies," he says.

I've been aware of the child sex trade in much of SE Asia for many years, but was surprised at the numbers of tourists thought to go to places such as Cambodia and Thailand to engage in sex with children.
Those numbers led to to suspect this problem is far worse than many people imagine; this confirms my hypothesis.

As a note, I'm not knocking the Japanese with this thread, as this site shows, the events are attracting men from many countries.

Tokyo Anime Group Tokyo Otaku Unite Tokyo - Meetup

You've moved to the holy land of anime, manga and games, but maybe you're like me with only limited Japanese skills. Wouldn't it be nice to sit around and talk about the latest anime, upcoming conventions and games in English?

This isn't limited to Japan but, with credit to many other countries, it is toned down a lot, but still features young girls in clearly images clearly designed to create sexual interest in teens or younger, all be it cartoons of kids.

Now to get controversial, but we must first define paedophilia.

It's normally defined as,

noun
1.
the condition of being sexually attracted to children"

But most go on to

psychosexual disorder in which an adult's arousal and sexual gratification occur primarily through sexual contact with prepubescent children.

The latter definition is clearly perversion as attraction to very young children is clearly very odd, and against anything in nature.
The first, most common version, concerns children of all ages, usually up to school leaving age.
I'm unsure that's actually perverted as a sexually nature person's body is designed by nature to be attractive, but I believe it to be socially unacceptable; this being for a variety of reasons, mostly concerned with the welfare of the child, and her inability to handle both a sexual relationship, and any results of that.

From a personal point of view - I simply don't find kids interesting.
When I engage in a sexual relationship, even a very short term one, I'm as interested in the personality and ability to converse, as am the sex.
I just don't find teens attractive, my interest usually starting post university age.
Perhaps my particular interest in intelligent fresh grads is perversion (or at least a fetish) in itself, but I find the ability to hold a deep, well thought out conversation interesting, and gives me far greater interest in her body, and the pleasures it hold for me.
My perfect date was always a meeting with a lady, a serious conversation over dinner, then some serious sinning for the rest of the night.
That's why teens don't do it for me - much as many have sexually developed bodies, they can't compete with my ideal.
Of course, I'm old, fat and married now, so I'm down to old memories, activity being consigned to the past.

To the topic.
What is your opinion of this industry, do you think it should be banned, and what are your thoughts on cartoons of children clearly designed to sexually attract men?
What about the men that attend these things, and collect these cartoons; perhaps they're a potential danger to children - thoughts?

 

[Lipush]

There is no connection between Paedophilia and Mental Problems. Paedophilia is a perversion, and those who watch child porn won't just rise one day and rape minors. Blocking child porn doesn't and won't influence rapists or perverts.

 

[iamwhatiseem]

There is very little difference in what Japanese do, and what Americans do...just not openly.
Only difference is this truly strange thing about middle aged Japanese women who have a strong fetish to teenage "girl boys". They buy books by the millions of teen gay sex books, teen gay sex comics and movies. Truly odd.
Not defending it - but it is not pedophilia. Pedophilia is the sexual attraction/gratification to pre-nubile children. In other words children before they have developed.
Both Japanese and American culture aggrandize nubile teens. Americans just do it behind the scenes.
That is not pedophilia. It is wrong, but not a sickness.

 

[Indofred]

Whilst girls (and maybe boys), post puberty may mean it isn't pedophilia as such, it is odd.
There are 11 year old girls at my school with breasts and all the right curves, but I don't give them a second look except in relation to academic matters.
I find it a little odd that a man can be sexually attracted to them.
That's what gets me about 50 year old men in Pakistan that marry 11 year old girls - I have no clue why they'd want to, unless they're sick in the head.
Of course, that also applies to men in Japan, getting excited over a cartoon child in a short skirt with her underwear showing.
I've seen that stuff, but I have no clue what a man would get turned on by it.
Can anyone enlighten me?

 

[airplanemechanic]

You do realize that humans are the only species on EARTH that makes a rule, a law, when someone can find someone attractive or when they can mate. In all other species, as soon as one is capable of reproducing they do, as it maximizes the chances of successful continuation of the species. For all other species, an "11yo with breasts and all the right curves" is ideal for mating and procreation, as she is young and healthy and capable of being a mother. But for humans, that gets you locked in a cage for decades. I'm not saying that it should be legal, but I do believe the whole scenario is misunderstood. Adults who are attracted to pre-pubecent children are against nature, however. But whatever age puberty happens, for all other species, that's all that is necessary. In fact, in human history, children got married and had kids because people died so young. But just because modern medicine has extended human lifespans doesn't turn off natural triggers in ones head.

While one might argue humans are more "sophisticated" on that level, we are still animals with animal instincts. There is a reason that you aren't a pedophile if you're attracted to pubescent people under age 18. Because sexually speaking, there is no difference between a 13 year old with an adult body and an 18 year old. Knowing her birthday doesn't turn off mother nature. The difference is humans can stop themselves from acting. Because I can promise you I can show you a photo of a sexually dressed and sexually developed 18 year old and 13 year old and you'd be hard pressed to identify which was which.

I think society is pressing children to act and look sexually. Just look at that video posted of those 3 girls and how many people came to the defense of their miniskirts. One girls skirt was literally inches below her crotch and people were defending it until their dying day. It's really sad.

Dress like a slut and be called a pervert for being attracted to them because mother nature, going back 10,000 years, says its normal. My grandmother got married at 13, her mother got married at 11. Their husbands were 22 and 24 respectfully, and nobody accused my grandpa of being a pedophile.

 

[iamwhatiseem]

You say sophisticated, I say civilized. And that is a big difference.
After Women's suffrage in the late 1800's, and after the "first sexual revolution" in the 1920's - women were finally becoming liberated, that is, becoming an equal member of society. A big step forward in civilizing western culture.
And a part of that was an end of men exploiting young girls. And that is the key word here - EXPLOITATION.
Sexual contact with a prepubescent child is pedophilia, a perversion.
Sexual contact with a minor who is post puberty is exploitation.
An adult man or woman can easily seduce a child 13 to 16 years old. Almost 100% of the time if there is an opportunity, and the child has a crush on you.
That child believes there is a deep emotional bond between you, and of course the adult will use this to their advantage. It is after the sex takes place, and the adult abandons them, they are emotionally damaged. Most of these kids have had rough childhoods, many times a father who is AWOL. The child is desperately needing an adult in their lives that have their best interest at heart - and what they get is an adult that just wants to bang them.
That is terribly wrong. And therefore there needs to be a criminal disincentive to stop it from happening.

 

[airplanemechanic]

And herein lies the issue. You call them a child at 16, yet in America, there are dozens of states with age of consent laws at 16. There are entire civilized nations with AOC laws at or below 16. Australia is 16, Russia is 16, most of Europe is 14 or 15, Mexico is 12. So this raises another question, if a 15 year old in America (incapable of consenting to sex according to our laws) flies to Europe and can suddenly consent to sex on that piece of dirt, why is it exploitation in America and just regular sex in Europe?

What's the deal? Either you're raping them or you're not. Being able to step across state lines and its suddenly not a crime makes for arguably grey areas in the law. It also raises questions about it being rape. If she can consent in Europe she can consent in America. That being said, I disagree with them dressing like sluts. I think as teens they need to worry about school, but I was a teen boy at one time and teens have two things on their mind, sleep and sex.

 

[iamwhatiseem]

Anywhere in the world an adult who uses a child’s immature emotional/intellectual state to get down her pants is wrong. Regardless of laws.That is not grey.
To me, the difference is parenting. A child who is raised in a good family, had a "normal" upgrading, loving parentS. etc. Makes it less likely for her to seek adult companionship. And if she is exploited, she will have a solid support system to deal with the pain.

 

[airplanemechanic]

Who says an adult sleeping with a teen is exploitation? I knew MANY girls in high school sleeping with adults, and believe me, hearing those girls gossip on Monday morning about their weekend "exploits" made it readily apparent they were consenting.

 

[iamwhatiseem]

Who says an adult sleeping with a teen is exploitation? I know MANY girls in high school sleeping with adults, and believe me, hearing those girls gossip on Monday morning about their weekend "exploits" made it readily apparent they were consenting.

Depends on their definition of "adults".
High School 16, 17 yo's having sex with a 19 year old is all too common. But not the same as having sex with a 40 year old.
I have a 24 year old daughter (and a 20 yo son)
Over the years more than one of her friends were a bit too chummy with me. One in particular which was scary and a touchy situation to say the least. Teenage girls are very dangerous. Set one off and you may find yourself accused of something you didn't do. Happens a lot. I made DAMN sure I was never alone with her at any time.
Anyhow, the exploitation involves, again, the adult taking advantage of the young girls immature state of being. Many of the girls who are exploited have had rough childhoods - truly needing a trusting adult in heir lives for guidance and support. Instead they get f*cked. Physically yes, but worse "mind fucked".
Mind fucking is when a person has thoroughly messed with someone's emotions to point where they are near suicide. Many of these girls are already messed up, or obviously they wouldn't be seeking someone old enough to be there father in the first place. Then when trashed by the only person they might have felt love for - they are in shambles.
And THAT is exploitation.

 

[007]

Who says an adult sleeping with a teen is exploitation? I knew MANY girls in high school sleeping with adults, and believe me, hearing those girls gossip on Monday morning about their weekend "exploits" made it readily apparent they were consenting.

Darn right... I knew this person here from casual conversation long ago in the bars, then one day he was gone. News got out that he had had sex with two 13 year old girls. He was arrested, charged and convicted on multiple counts of differing sex with minors charges, and has spent the last 8 some years already in prison, this, even though both girls in court admitted in testimony that they drew him into it and had full consensual sex with him. Aside from the law being what it is and he should have known he was dealing with fire, I think to sentence him to all that prison time is just wrong beyond words.

 

[airplanemechanic]

You seem to be making excuses or painting with a broad brush. Not all teen girls who like older guys have had a hard upbringing. In fact, growing up, every little girl I knew who dated an older boy (a college boy when she was in high school) her parents were happily married and the one girl whose dad died when young didn't really even date boys at all. One girl did sleep around and her parents were divorced. But by no means is it all.

So stop making excuses for sexually active teen girls. They're not all broken families. Hold onto your hats: teen girls can get horny too.

You ever heard of "correlation does not equal causation?" For example, if 100 girls are in a group, 50 of them come from 2 parent homes, the other 50 from one parent and half the girls in each group sleep with older boys, you can't blame the broken families for the girls sleeping around. Basically, just because their parents are divorced and they slept with older boys doesn't mean that is WHAT CAUSED them to sleep with older boys. They very well could just be horny teens.

You say no mention of girls in their 20's sleeping with high school boys. So that's perfectly ok with you? Nobody thinks it hurts a 15yo boy to bang a college cheerleader.

 

[iamwhatiseem]

Damn right... I knew this person here from casual conversation long ago in the bars, then one day he was gone. News got out that he had had sex with two 13 year old girls. He was arrested, charged and convicted on multiple counts of differing sex with minors charges, and has spent the last 8 some years already in prison, this, even though both girls in court admitted in testimony that they drew him into it and had full consensual sex with him. Aside from the law being what it is and he should have known he was dealing with fire, I think to sentence him to all that prison time is just wrong beyond words.

And why in my post I stated teen girls are DAMN dangerous. And why I never allowed myself to be alone with the couple that I had "problems" with.
Last summer someone I knew through an acquaintance, I spoke to him maybe 2-3 times was arrested for kidnapping/criminal restraint with a deadly weapon and rape of a 14 year old girl. At first I was dumbfounded, I though my God what a f*cking monster...that is...until I read the story. Hmmm...I think he is the one that got fucked.
What happened was the girl was a friend of his daughters. She had spent the night a couple times and on one night they flirted with each other and light petting. Both admitted to this.
The facts are they had sex in the woods behind his house late one night. This we know. The girl later the next day told her mother than the man led her into the woods to "show her something" and took out a knife and forced her to have sex.
Does that sound believable?? It is possible, but more likely it was consensual and she felt guilty and abused afterwords and made up the knife.
The guy vehemently denied the accusation, but at no time denied they had sex.
She didn't have a scratch on her, and neither did he.
ANOTHER REASON - adults and young teens have ZERO business in this kind of relationship.

 

[iamwhatiseem]

You seem to be making excuses or painting with a broad brush. Not all teen girls who like older guys have had a hard upbringing. In fact, growing up, every little girl I knew who dated an older boy (a college boy when she was in high school) her parents were happily married and the one girl whose dad died when young didn't really even date boys at all. One girl did sleep around and her parents were divorced. But by no means is it all.

So stop making excuses for sexually active teen girls. They're not all broken families. Hold onto your hats: teen girls can get horny too.

You ever heard of "correlation does not equal causation?" For example, if 100 girls are in a group, 50 of them come from 2 parent homes, the other 50 from one parent and half the girls in each group sleep with older boys, you can't blame the broken families for the girls sleeping around. Basically, just because their parents are divorced and they slept with older boys doesn't mean that is WHAT CAUSED them to sleep with older boys. They very well could just be horny teens.

You say no mention of girls in their 20's sleeping with high school boys. So that's perfectly ok with you? Nobody thinks it hurts a 15yo boy to bang a college cheerleader.

What?
Put words in people's mouth much?
Sorry, I thought you were at least of average intelligence and sincerity in your thoughts. I see I was mistaken.
Bye bye. Have a nice life after you grow up.

 

[airplanemechanic]

Yea I know, the truth hurts. Run quickly, before someone asks you to back up what you claim.

 

[007]

Damn right... I knew this person here from casual conversation long ago in the bars, then one day he was gone. News got out that he had had sex with two 13 year old girls. He was arrested, charged and convicted on multiple counts of differing sex with minors charges, and has spent the last 8 some years already in prison, this, even though both girls in court admitted in testimony that they drew him into it and had full consensual sex with him. Aside from the law being what it is and he should have known he was dealing with fire, I think to sentence him to all that prison time is just wrong beyond words.

And why in my post I stated teen girls are DAMN dangerous. And why I never allowed myself to be alone with the couple that I had "problems" with.
Last summer someone I knew through an acquaintance, I spoke to him maybe 2-3 times was arrested for kidnapping/criminal restraint with a deadly weapon and rape of a 14 year old girl. At first I was dumbfounded, I though my God what a f*cking monster...that is...until I read the story. Hmmm...I think he is the one that got fucked.
What happened was the girl was a friend of his daughters. She had spent the night a couple times and on one night they flirted with each other and light petting. Both admitted to this.
The facts are they had sex in the woods behind his house late one night. This we know. The girl later the next day told her mother than the man led her into the woods to "show her something" and took out a knife and forced her to have sex.
Does that sound believable?? It is possible, but more likely it was consensual and she felt guilty and abused afterwords and made up the knife.
The guy vehemently denied the accusation, but at no time denied they had sex.
She didn't have a scratch on her, and neither did he.
ANOTHER REASON - adults and young teens have ZERO business in this kind of relationship.

About 10 years ago I used to drive a school bus. I was hired on with a bunch that had driven for years so I was given what they all considered the worst route there was. I was warned that the kids were all hellions and to be careful how I handled them. Well, yes, they were hellions, but I'm kind of a kindred spirit in that regard, so after some tumultuous early times, things calmed down and I actually enjoyed it. But, there were the several little girls that were mature past their years, and one in particular that was either 11 or 12 and, how to say this nicely, just very physically mature for her age, that was one of my last drop offs. I would never put myself in a position where I was alone with her on my bus. I would alter my route and drop her off early. No way would I ever let one of them accuse me of something that regardless as to whether or not it was true, you'd be guilty until proven innocent, and the accusation would follow you for life.

 

[airplanemechanic]

007, you're a very smart man.

 

[Indofred]

You do realize that humans are the only species on EARTH that makes a rule, a law, when someone can find someone attractive or when they can mate. In all other species, as soon as one is capable of reproducing they do, as it maximizes the chances of successful continuation of the species. For all other species, an "11yo with breasts and all the right curves" is ideal for mating and procreation

There goes intelligence.Yes, of course tat is true, but life for humans is different, so it just doesn't fit.
I think there are two distinct issues here, sex pre and post puberty.

Working on what nature 'intended', sex with someone pre-puberty would be perverted - with someone post puberty would not.
Most societies use puberty as the border of acceptable sex, or did in the past.
I see the former as some sort of mental disorder.
The latter is different, and ruled by the norms in society.

“Any preoccupation with ideas of what is right or wrong in conduct shows an arrested intellectual development.” - Oscar Wilde.

I suspect the chap's inspiration for that quote was homosexuality, but it works just as well for this issue..

Many cultures accept sex with post post puberty females as perfectly normal.
The Mosuo have no concept of marriage, girls taking lovers as soon as they wish after their first period, regardless of age. That is their society and, much as I find it strange, I have no objection to it.

Yemen is a little different. Their laws allow for very young sex (must be within marriage), but the girl as little say in the matter, so I would consider that to be rape.
The Nujood Ali case is the perfect example of this mix of stupidity and ignorance.

Indonesia also has problems, but very different to those in Yemen. There is child marriage here, usually between 13 and 15 years old, but the husband and wife are commonly of similar age, the husband normally being 17 to 20 years old. These marriages are semi arranged, but the partners decide if they want to go ahead - no one is forced.
I've been to wedding of such kids but, whilst I'm hardly happy at the idea, I see the reasons.
These marriages are forced by poverty, not perversion.

In western society, very young marriage and/or sex is considered unacceptable.
Odd in some ways as Ecclesiastical Law only stipulated puberty as the age of consent.
More developed societies insist on a full education for girls, and generally consider a young girl to be a child, so sex is unacceptable.
My opinion is slightly different - I believe (in such a society) it is outside the girl's best interest to engage in sex as there is little hope of her coping with such a relationship and the likely resulting offspring. That isn't a moral judgement, more a practical one.
I would suggest the UK's terrible teen pregnancy rate and declining social conditions to be a level of proof my assertion is true.

 

[Indofred]

Over the years more than one of her friends were a bit too chummy with me. One in particular which was scary and a touchy situation to say the least. Teenage girls are very dangerous. Set one off and you may find yourself accused of something you didn't do. Happens a lot. I made DAMN sure I was never alone with her at any time.

Bloody hell - tell me about it.
A kid at my school started flashing her knickers off to me in class, when she was in grade 5.
She would turn in her seat, pointing her body towards me, then open her legs, exposing her knickers.
I thought it was an accident at first, but ended up requesting advice from the principal, and asking her to have a quiet word with the girl.
That same girl has been attempting advances ever since, even turning up at the house a few weeks ago. As luck has it, my wife and I were at the hospital visiting our new born in his incubator, so I missed her.
She's 14 or 15 now, so it was off to the junior high school principal to report the matter.

There's a big child sex case here at the moment involving the Jakarta international school (one of the accused is a Canadian) so schools are jittery.
We lost one teacher because of this, when he was wrongly accused of messing with a kid. In fact all he did was rub the kid's head, but the parents twisted the story out of any reality, so that was that.
Any suggestion of messing with kids sees you out on your ear, so that girl's antics have to be reported immediately and her parents informed of her actions.

 

[Lipush]

You don't need to be judge of Mid-East society to believe there should be nothing attractive of little girls to older men, most of them aren't even fully developed yet.