Legalize It!

[Midnight Marauder]

You don't know what you're talking about.
Were there just as many arrests for bootlegging after Prohibition was repealed?

Of course not. Illegal drug dealers would pretty much be put out of business by legal drug dealers, who'd be able to undercut the prices of illegal drug dealers.

Wrong. You don't ever hear about bootlegging arrests because they're not "sexy." It's boring, blase ATF stuff. But it happens daily. And it's stiff FEDERAL FELONY charges, not misdemeanor pay your ticket crap like we have now for weed possession.

You really think there won't be a black market? Folks will be growing their own weed because it will be legal to do so. But just like booze, they will start selling it, without the tax stamp, and that's where the hammer will be coming down.

Right now, I can brew my own beer at home. It's legal to do so. What do you think would happen to me if I got caught selling my home brew to friends, neighbors, anyone who wanted it?

Use your noggin.

Well, this is the way I see it. Why would I buy beer from a bootlegger when I can just walk to the corner store? I feel that the same would apply for weed.

To avoid the massive, punative taxation and buy the shit for about half or more what you would pay in the store.

We have a massive black market on cigarettes too, always have, and they bust folks for that too.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

If we took out all nonviolent drug offenders that would be a significant number of people and would certainly help our overcrowding problem.

You repeat the same myth, the same lie. And fail to realize that "non violent drug offenders" would still be arrested and jailed if drugs were legalized and taxed. Just like any other bootlegger be it alcohol or cigarettes and other tobacco products. Except that's a federal crime, with much harsher sentences. If you make or grow or brew and then sell the shit without a tax stamp, you're looking at 10 years in federal prison.

I don't think you can get past the mantra to even realize what you're saying. Legalizing marijuana or any of the other recreational drugs won't stop arrests. Folks illegally dealing in these will face federal charges instead.

Do you get it yet?

So there you have it, legalizing drugs will NOT have any effect on prison overcrowding. One because the issue is greatly exaggerated, as I pointed out earlier, and two because the "legal" drugs will be regulated and taxed, and if you're caught bootlegging it your ass will go up federal.

So please, drop the mantra? It is regurgitated, stale old kool-aid that doesn't advance the discussion.

Thank you.

I wasn't clear enough. Those laws need to be repealed as well. If you want to brew your own beer and sell it then I don't believe you should be penalized, and the same applies to drugs.

 

[Midnight Marauder]

I wasn't clear enough. Those laws need to be repealed as well. If you want to brew your own beer and sell it then I don't believe you should be penalized, and the same applies to drugs.

The problem in that lies in what I addressed earlier, the difference between de-criminalization and legalization.

One is anarchist sort of, the other recognizes that for the public good, some substances need to be regulated. And for the services of this regulation, they tax it.

Of course now though, they tax it as punishment, as behavior modification instead of to raise revenue.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

I wasn't clear enough. Those laws need to be repealed as well. If you want to brew your own beer and sell it then I don't believe you should be penalized, and the same applies to drugs.

The problem in that lies in what I addressed earlier, the difference between de-criminalization and legalization.

One is anarchist sort of, the other recognizes that for the public good, some substances need to be regulated. And for the services of this regulation, they tax it.

Of course now though, they tax it as punishment, as behavior modification instead of to raise revenue.

It does no good for the public for somebody to get a fine or jail time for brewing their own alcohol and selling it. It simply punishes private initiative. If they're hurting nobody but themselves then there's no reason to prosecute them.

 

[Midnight Marauder]

I wasn't clear enough. Those laws need to be repealed as well. If you want to brew your own beer and sell it then I don't believe you should be penalized, and the same applies to drugs.

The problem in that lies in what I addressed earlier, the difference between de-criminalization and legalization.

One is anarchist sort of, the other recognizes that for the public good, some substances need to be regulated. And for the services of this regulation, they tax it.

Of course now though, they tax it as punishment, as behavior modification instead of to raise revenue.

It does no good for the public for somebody to get a fine or jail time for brewing their own alcohol and selling it. It simply punishes private initiative. If they're hurting nobody but themselves then there's no reason to prosecute them.

Ahh.... I see you've never been poisoned by bad home brew. Or been slipped any wood alkie, that some less then honest liquor bootleggers make and mix in with corn liquor...

Today we have drug dealers cutting smack and coke with ecstasy, or who knows what else.

This is the public safety part of regulation. To ensure quality and relative safety.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

The problem in that lies in what I addressed earlier, the difference between de-criminalization and legalization.

One is anarchist sort of, the other recognizes that for the public good, some substances need to be regulated. And for the services of this regulation, they tax it.

Of course now though, they tax it as punishment, as behavior modification instead of to raise revenue.

It does no good for the public for somebody to get a fine or jail time for brewing their own alcohol and selling it. It simply punishes private initiative. If they're hurting nobody but themselves then there's no reason to prosecute them.

Ahh.... I see you've never been poisoned by bad home brew. Or been slipped any wood alkie, that some less then honest liquor bootleggers make and mix in with corn liquor...

Today we have drug dealers cutting smack and coke with ecstasy, or who knows what else.

This is the public safety part of regulation. To ensure quality and relative safety.

You would be able to prosecute for fraud if that occurred.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

HISTORY FACTS

*Hemp has been grown for at least the last 12,000 years for fiber (textiles and paper) and food. It has been effectively prohibited in the United States since the 1950s.

*George Washington and Thomas Jefferson both grew hemp. Ben Franklin owned a mill that made hemp paper. Jefferson drafted the Declaration of Independence on hemp paper.

*When US sources of "Manila hemp" (not true hemp) was cut off by the Japanese in WWII, the US Army and US Department of Agriculture promoted the "Hemp for Victory" campaign to grow hemp in the US.

*Because of its importance for sails (the word "canvass" is rooted in "cannabis") and rope for ships, hemp was a required crop in the American colonies.

INDUSTRY FACTS

*Henry Ford experimented with hemp to build car bodies. He wanted to build and fuel cars from farm products.

*BMW is experimenting with hemp materials in automobiles as part of an effort to make cars more recyclable.

*Much of the bird seed sold in the US has hemp seed (it's sterilized before importation), the hulls of which contain about 25% protein.

*Hemp oil once greased machines. Most paints, resins, shellacs, and varnishes used to be made out of linseed (from flax) and hemp oils.

*Rudolph Diesel designed his engine to run on hemp oil.

*Kimberly Clark (on the Fortune 500) has a mill in France which produces hemp paper preferred for bibles because it lasts a very long time and doesn't yellow.

*Construction products such as medium density fiber board, oriented strand board, and even beams, studs and posts could be made out of hemp. Because of hemp's long fibers, the products will be stronger and/or lighter than those made from wood.

*The products that can be made from hemp number over 25,000.

SCIENTIFIC FACTS

*Industrial hemp and marijuana are both classified by taxonomists as Cannabis sativa, a species with hundreds of varieties. C. sativa is a member of the mulberry family. Industrial hemp is bred to maximize fiber, seed and/or oil, while marijuana varieties seek to maximize THC (delta 9 tetrahydrocannabinol, the primary psychoactive ingredient in marijuana).

*While industrial hemp and marijuana may look somewhat alike to an untrained eye, an easily trained eye can easily distinguish the difference.

*Industrial hemp has a THC content of between 0.05 and 1%. Marijuana has a THC content of 3% to 20%. To receive a standard psychoactive dose would require a person to power-smoke 10-12 hemp cigarettes over an extremely short period of time. The large volume and high temperature of vapor, gas and smoke would be almost impossible for a person to withstand.

*If hemp does pollinate any nearby marijuana, genetically, the result will always be lower-THC marijuana, not higher-THC hemp. If hemp is grown outdoors, marijuana will not be grown close by to avoid producing lower-grade marijuana.

*Hemp fibers are longer, stronger, more absorbent and more mildew-resistant than cotton.

*Fabrics made of at least one-half hemp block the sun's UV rays more effectively than other fabrics.

*Many of the varieties of hemp that were grown in North America have been lost. Seed banks weren't maintained. New genetic breeding will be necessary using both foreign and domestic "ditchweed," strains of hemp that went feral after cultivation ended. Various state national guard units often spend their weekends trying to eradicate this hemp, in the mistaken belief they are helping stop drug use.

*A 1938 Popular Mechanics described hemp as a "New Billion Dollar Crop." That's back when a billion was real money.

*Hemp can be made in to a variety of fabrics, including linen quality.

LEGAL FACTS

*The US Drug Enforcement Agency classifies all C. sativa varieties as "marijuana." While it is theoretically possible to get permission from the government to grow hemp, DEA would require that the field be secured by fence, razor wire, dogs, guards, and lights, making it cost-prohibitive.
*The US State Department must certify each year that a foreign nation is cooperating in the war on drugs. The European Union subsidizes its farmers to grow industrial hemp. Those nations are not on this list, because the State Department can tell the difference between hemp and marijuana.

*Hemp was grown commercially (with increasing governmental interference) in the United States until the 1950s. It was doomed by the Marijuana Tax Act of 1937, which placed an extremely high tax on marijuana and made it effectively impossible to grow industrial hemp. While Congress expressly expected the continued production of industrial hemp, the Federal Bureau of Narcotics lumped industrial hemp with marijuana, as it's successor the US Drug Enforcement Administration, does to this day.

*Over 30 industrialized democracies do distinguish hemp from marijuana. International treaties regarding marijuana make an exception for industrial hemp.

*Canada now again allows the growing of hemp.
ECOLOGY FACTS

* Hemp growers can not hide marijuana plants in their fields. Marijuana is grown widely spaced to maximize leaves. Hemp is grown in tightly-spaced rows to maximize stalk and is usually harvested before it goes to seed.

*Hemp can be made into fine quality paper. The long fibers in hemp allow such paper to be recycled several times more than wood-based paper.

*Because of its low lignin content, hemp can be pulped using less chemicals than with wood. Its natural brightness can obviate the need to use chlorine bleach, which means no extremely toxic dioxin being dumped into streams. A kinder and gentler chemistry using hydrogen peroxide rather than chlorine dixoide is possible with hemp fibers.

*Hemp grows well in a variety of climates and soil types. It is naturally resistant to most pests, precluding the need for pesticides. It grows tightly spaced, out-competing any weeds, so herbicides are not necessary. It also leaves a weed-free field for a following crop.

*Hemp can displace cotton which is usually grown with massive amounts of chemicals harmful to people and the environment. 50% of all the world's pesticides are sprayed on cotton.

*Hemp can displace wood fiber and save forests for watershed, wildlife habitat, recreation and oxygen production, carbon sequestration (reduces global warming), and other values.

*Hemp can yield 3-8 dry tons of fiber per acre. This is four times what an average forest can yield.

HEALTH FACTS

*If one tried to ingest enough industrial hemp to get 'a buzz', it would be the equivalent of taking 2-3 doses of a high-fiber laxative.

*At a volume level of 81%, hemp oil is the richest known source of polyunsaturated essential fatty acids (the "good" fats). It's quite high in some essential amino acids, including gamma linoleic acid (GLA), a very rare nutrient also found in mother's milk.

*While the original "gruel" was made of hemp seed meal, hemp oil and seed can be made into tasty and nutritional products.

Prepared by the North American Industrial Hemp Council, October 1997

 

[Diuretic]

If we took out all nonviolent drug offenders that would be a significant number of people and would certainly help our overcrowding problem.

You repeat the same myth, the same lie. And fail to realize that "non violent drug offenders" would still be arrested and jailed if drugs were legalized and taxed. Just like any other bootlegger be it alcohol or cigarettes and other tobacco products. Except that's a federal crime, with much harsher sentences. If you make or grow or brew and then sell the shit without a tax stamp, you're looking at 10 years in federal prison.

I don't think you can get past the mantra to even realize what you're saying. Legalizing marijuana or any of the other recreational drugs won't stop arrests. Folks illegally dealing in these will face federal charges instead.

Do you get it yet?

So there you have it, legalizing drugs will NOT have any effect on prison overcrowding. One because the issue is greatly exaggerated, as I pointed out earlier, and two because the "legal" drugs will be regulated and taxed, and if you're caught bootlegging it your ass will go up federal.

So please, drop the mantra? It is regurgitated, stale old kool-aid that doesn't advance the discussion.

Thank you.

I wasn't clear enough. Those laws need to be repealed as well. If you want to brew your own beer and sell it then I don't believe you should be penalized, and the same applies to drugs.

Could be an issue of quality control there Kevin, on the beer I mean.

On edit - sorry, point made already by MM

 

[Fatality]

I can't imagine anything stupider and more of a waste of time, effort and money then our "War on Drugs" which somehow includes a product that was the staple of every major civilization on the planet: hemp!

Hemp is not even a Drug! Do you have any idea how stupid we are for treating Hemp as a drug? It's like confusing cocoa beans for coca leaves or Coca Cola for Cocaine!

I am also completely in favor of legalizing and taxing marijuana.

It's 2009, Prohibition was a failure and the War on Drugs is an even bigger loser.

If we legalize marijuana and other similar drugs, the Crime rate will plummet and tax revenues will soar. Let's just grow the **** up already

yep, tax the shit out of it then the hippies wont be able to buy their $10 lids anymore

10 dollar lids ... maybe a couple joints

oh, so the price has already skyrocketed wihtout taxes, damn! just wait your 200.00 oz will be 700.00

 

[Shogun]

yep, tax the shit out of it then the hippies wont be able to buy their $10 lids anymore

10 dollar lids ... maybe a couple joints

oh, so the price has already skyrocketed wihtout taxes, damn! just wait your 200.00 oz will be 700.00

perhaps... perhaps not. You COULD go to the store and buy alcohol that is very much taxed by the gov....


....OR, you could brew your own Beer. or wine. whatever. Similarly, I'm thinking that if pot were legal and taxed there would be an allowable amount to be grown for personal use.

 

[Shogun]

It does no good for the public for somebody to get a fine or jail time for brewing their own alcohol and selling it. It simply punishes private initiative. If they're hurting nobody but themselves then there's no reason to prosecute them.

Ahh.... I see you've never been poisoned by bad home brew. Or been slipped any wood alkie, that some less then honest liquor bootleggers make and mix in with corn liquor...

Today we have drug dealers cutting smack and coke with ecstasy, or who knows what else.

This is the public safety part of regulation. To ensure quality and relative safety.

You would be able to prosecute for fraud if that occurred.

...cutting smack and coke with extacy? anyone have a link to an example of this? and, more importantly, that dealer's beeper number>

 

[Gudrid]

The prison's are privately owned with government contracts, they want them over crowded for the cheap labor.

That's an interesting perspective. I never really thought about it. I'm going to look into that.

Put down my vote for legalizing plus dui laws.

 

[Shogun]

Spend some time in Amsterdam and then tell me you would like to make drugs legal in this country.... I don't think it's a real good idea. I agree that compared to some drugs, pot is fairly tame but you have to draw the line somewhere.

fair enough. I'll propose a compromise. Give us weed (and maybe a lil coke) and keep meth and heroin illegal.

 

[Fatality]

10 dollar lids ... maybe a couple joints

oh, so the price has already skyrocketed wihtout taxes, damn! just wait your 200.00 oz will be 700.00

perhaps... perhaps not. You COULD go to the store and buy alcohol that is very much taxed by the gov....


....OR, you could brew your own Beer. or wine. whatever. Similarly, I'm thinking that if pot were legal and taxed there would be an allowable amount to be grown for personal use.

oh, so you dont think your plant out back is gonna be taxed? so youre sugggesting a tax dodge?

 

[Harry Dresden]

yep, tax the shit out of it then the hippies wont be able to buy their $10 lids anymore

is that 3 fingers or 4?....

 

[Harry Dresden]

Ten dollar lids?

You gotta be kidding.

at one time....early 70's....worked for me....

 

[Fatality]

yep, tax the shit out of it then the hippies wont be able to buy their $10 lids anymore

is that 3 fingers or 4?....

wow, u mean they dont do that anymore? beats the hell outa me man.

 

[Shogun]

I can't imagine anything stupider and more of a waste of time, effort and money then our "War on Drugs" which somehow includes a product that was the staple of every major civilization on the planet: hemp!

Hemp is not even a Drug! Do you have any idea how stupid we are for treating Hemp as a drug? It's like confusing cocoa beans for coca leaves!

I am also completely in favor of legalizing and taxing marijuana.

It's 2009, Prohibition was a failure and the War on Drugs is an even bigger loser.

If we legalize marijuana and other similar drugs, the Crime rate will plummet and tax revenues will soar. Let's just grow the **** up already

It would also be a huge blow to our overcrowding problem in prisons. Let people make their own decisions regarding what they do with their bodies.

No one is in prison just for smoking weed. They are there either for trafficking it -- which they still would be if it was legalized and taxed, if they were selling it illegally -- or for other unrelated felony charges in which the weed was just another misdemeanor charge. Trafficking it illegally would be federal charges instead of state, were it legalized, which much harsher penalties I might add. And by the way, marijuana charges causing prison overcrowding is by far the biggest lie, the biggest myth of the entire argument.

To the OP: It's important to make the distinction between legalization and de-criminalization. Legalization means it will be regulated and taxed like tobacco and alcohol. De-criminalization means, no regulation at all, we can grow it and use it to our little heart's content. For some reason, these terms have gotten confused and made interchangeable. They are not.

I am for legalization. Same laws applying to weed as alcohol. Can you imagine our agricultural might, as we grow weed and export it throughout the world? As we also grow and use hemp?

Good thread, good OP.

See, HERE is the problem I have with the trafficking charge.. Yes, they move a controlled substance. Yes, that is against the law....

but.. conservatives...


isn't that nothing more that an industrious WILL TO WORK? to be SELF SUPPORTIVE? Tommy Chong went to jail for doing the same thing a widget maker does: sell a product to a desiring market. Yes? If pot were legal then selling dope on the street would look more like a tupperware party than a crack house. Glass blowers and greenhouses would create brand new business. We could literally save the entire cancer-ridden post-20th century tobacco industry by doing nothing more than trading seeds.

Take it from Willie..

Me and Paul by Willie Nelson

It's been rough and rocky travelin',
But I'm finally standin' upright on the ground.
After takin' several readings,
I'm surprised to find my mind`s still fairly sound.

I guess Nashville was the roughest,
But I know I said the same about them all.
We received our education
In the cities of the nation, me and Paul.

Almost busted in Laredo,
But for reasons that I'd rather not disclose,
But if you're stayin' in a motel there and leave,
Just don't leave nothin' in your clothes.

And at the airport in Milwaukee,
They refused to let us board the plane at all,
They said we looked suspicious,
But I believe they like to pick on me and Paul.

I guess Nashville was the roughest,
But I know I said the same about them all.
We received our education
In the cities of the nation, me and Paul.

 

[Harry Dresden]

Seems to be a consenus. I don't believe it!

its amazing what passing a joint around can do...

 

[Shogun]

It would also be a huge blow to our overcrowding problem in prisons. Let people make their own decisions regarding what they do with their bodies.

No one is in prison just for smoking weed. They are there either for trafficking it -- which they still would be if it was legalized and taxed, if they were selling it illegally -- or for other unrelated felony charges in which the weed was just another misdemeanor charge. Trafficking it illegally would be federal charges instead of state, were it legalized, which much harsher penalties I might add. And by the way, marijuana charges causing prison overcrowding is by far the biggest lie, the biggest myth of the entire argument.

To the OP: It's important to make the distinction between legalization and de-criminalization. Legalization means it will be regulated and taxed like tobacco and alcohol. De-criminalization means, no regulation at all, we can grow it and use it to our little heart's content. For some reason, these terms have gotten confused and made interchangeable. They are not.

I am for legalization. Same laws applying to weed as alcohol. Can you imagine our agricultural might, as we grow weed and export it throughout the world? As we also grow and use hemp?

Good thread, good OP.

Well I'm not just for legalizing marijuana, I'm for legalizing all drugs. If we accept the notion that we own our own bodies then how can you say that the government has the right to penalize us for using any drug? If we took out all nonviolent drug offenders that would be a significant number of people and would certainly help our overcrowding problem.

I have to disagree. There is a full spectrum of how drugs impact an individual and i'm not really ready to have a bunch of meth heads running around out in the open. There IS a hierarchy of substances. The problem has been the illogical nature of our present standard. Meth should not be legal.