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Experiments have demonstrated that the hook proteins are located at the base of the flagellum, where electron microscopy shows several ring structures occur to connect our brain to our bodily motor functions. This is too complex to occurred in steps, but would have to had occurred in one step.

Yes, this is S&T ... citation or it didn't happen ... or perhaps better a reference ... I absolutely do not believe both chimps and gorillas have significant differences in this pathway from humans ... nor with rodents and birds ... so not one single step, but hundreds of billions of steps ...

But I do understand the dilemma here and it is not well understood ... we do find "islands of speciation" where it appears that the intermediaries are non-vital ... however this is not universal, in other groups of organisms we do see gradual change through the Genus/Family/Order ... Hawthorns are a particularly perplexing group, it's said one can know their location within 50 miles by looking at the local hawthorn scrub ...

I assume you're okay with a 13.8 billion year old universe ... so evolution has all the time she needs ...

Time is the fourth dimension which means the three dimensions of space are a subset. That's how we get spacetime. If you just say time, then its just recording of time from a device such as a clock.

This is a common misunderstanding ... time and distant are the same thing, there is no difference ... it is only our biological imperitive to survive that we perceive the universe in three spacial dimensions and count our heartbeats ... puts food on the table ... good YouTube videos on Special Relativity abound, avail yourself if you're interested ... some more fun things to do with house cats ...

He created that first as angels or spiritual beings.
So God didn't create spacetime nor the universe nor anything material such as the human body?
How did the universe start and get all the energy that it would ever need?
How did one get sexual reproduction from a single cell?

The Bible doesn't say God created spacetime ... and I asked above, here's dust, make me a human body ... unraveling dimensions provide the energy ... and in a trillion generations all kinds of things can happen ...

I guess ...

That's what the science says ... vexation of Spirit ...
 
Nice to Fall back this morning :).

I'm going to skip around what you wrote, so may not address everything.

The first five books of the Bible (known as the Torah) were written by Moses - an adopted son of the king of Egypt - in approximately 1400 B.C.. These five books focus on the beginning of the nation of Israel; but the first 11 chapters of the Torah records the history that all nations have in common. These allegorical accounts of the history of the world had been passed down from generation to generation orally for thousands of years. Moses did not really write the first 11 chapters of the Bible. Moses was the first Hebrew to record them.

It was God's words so he is the author, but I agree that it was Moses as the scribe for the Torah as what we call the Old Testament. He probably did record all of it except the part in Deuteronomy which describes his death (probably his follower Joshua wrote that). I'm not sure where you get the rest because it isn't correct. There is still today, much disagreement between some Jews who read and interpret the Torah that Jesus is not the Messiah. It means they have been misled.

What's troubling to me is that you treat God's words as allegory and the oral history of Jews. You seem to know how exactly Moses recorded the history when he was getting the oral history from God. How can anyone trust something that was handed down orally through different Jewish people? There could be great changes from one version to another over thousands of years from one generation to another.

Few would trust the accuracy of that including me.

Approximately 800 years before Moses recorded the allegorical accounts of the history of the world. The Chinese recorded this history as symbols in the Chinese language. They drew pictures to express words or ideas. Simple pictures were combined to make more complex thoughts. They used well known history and common everyday things to make a word so people could easily remember it. The account of Genesis found it's way into the Chinese written language because the Chinese had migrated from the cradle of civilization. Prior to this migration they all shared a common history and religion.

The Bible even explains how it was possible for the Chinese to record the account of Genesis 800 years before Moses recorded it. The account of the Tower of Babel was the allegorical account of the great migration from Mesopotamia. This also explains why all ancient cultures have an account of a great flood. Because they all shared a common history and religion before the great migration from the cradle of civilization.

I'm not sure what you are referring to. Are you referring to Tower of Babel? But you state it was 800 years before Moses recorded it? The Chinese always used symbolic or pictorial language. It's weird that the Chinese had the same account of Genesis before Moses wrote it. Got a link?

Also, it's confusing if you do not treat Noah's Flood or Tower of Babel as part of history, but allegory. I'm not sure what is allegorical about both accounts.

We have to keep in mind that these accounts are 6,000 years old and were passed down orally from one generation to the next for thousands of years. Surely ancient man believed these accounts were of the utmost importance otherwise they would not have been passed down for thousands of years before they were recorded in writing. We shouldn't view these accounts using the context of the modern world. Unfortunately, we are so far removed from these events that we have lost all original meaning. If you were to ask almost any Jew what the Tower of Babel was about he would have no clue that it was the allegorical account of the great migration from the cradle of civilization. That is not intended to be a criticism. It is intended to be an illustration of just how difficult a task it is to discover the original meaning from ancient accounts from 6,000 years ago. We read these texts like they were written yesterday looking for ways to discredit them and make ourselves feel superior rather than seeking the original meaning and wisdom. Shame on us.

Again, I need a link. I think you believe the Bible and your Chinese account are around 6,000 years old, but do not mention the 13.8 B yr-old universe and 4.5 B yr-old Earth.

It sounds to me that you think the Bible is just oral history like China's history passed down through thousands of years so they both aren't accurate.

How can we trust either of those histories then?

Do angels have free will? How do you know angels have free will? I don't know that they do or they don't. You should make a thread about this explaining how you know they do. I would be very interested in reading the biblical references.

Again, this is what God said. Free will means one can choose to sin or not. It basically boils down to whether to obey or disobey God, i.e. that which is written in the Bible. Jesus probably had the greatest free will because he had so many temptations, but always chose to obey God the Father. Satan, who was the greatest angel and greatest fallen one loves to hide and tempt other angels and humans into disobeying God. This means the Bible (or the Torah, i.e. OT parts), are confused and it misleads even the believers.

Here are two verses which describe the two different angels:

Psalm 103:20 ESV / 143 helpful votes
Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, obeying the voice of his word!

Jude 1:6 ESV / 123 helpful votes
And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day—


More on the free will of angels

I couldn't start a topic on angelic free will because they're spiritual beings different from humans. Our free will has led us in several different directions and beliefs part of which isn't good for the believers. Which parts are those? Those who diverge the most from God's word because they can't believe all of it.

Yes, we can remember the past but not the future. The GR field equations work perfectly well in reverse as they do in forward but no one has ever been able to reverse the direction of time. Even if the universe began to contract the arrow of time would not reverse. The question of time is not a new question. It's been discussed for a long time. Google "The problem with time." There is no physical phenomenon of time. It is just a way to mark the passage of physical events that do exist in the physical world.

I think time is just a recording device from your description of it instead of a fourth dimension which includes the third dimension as its subset. Its why time becomes spacetime in science.
I'm not going to argue with you. I thought I made that clear before. Twice. Believe whatever you want to believe.


You may believe whatever you want to believe but knowledge stands on it's own.
I agree. Error eventually fails. It's just a matter of time. No pun intended.
 
No problem at all. God created it. The only "thing" that can exist eternally without changing is "no thing." Spirit is no thing. Spirit is beyond energy and matter. As such there is no limitation. God is beyond energy and matter. God is spirit.

God and the angels may be spirit, but not Jesus. He was human. He was spirit and flesh. Do you not believe Jesus is God?

It certainly feels that way to me. You aren't curious about my beliefs. You are wanting to argue about my beliefs because you are insecure with your own beliefs. If you were curious about my beliefs you would take the 5 minutes to search for yourself.

I don't why you brought Chinese oral history which came after to explain Jewish history and the Torah. Doesn't it mean that there is no connection like you ascrbing what happened with the Chinese history to Moses and God? At least I don't see the connection. One has a tradition or oral and symbolic writing while the other was written as a scribe to God in Moses. BTW, those not Jewish are Gentiles and come under Paul's teachings.

What is most important is giving you the choice in what to believe, JB. Or do I need to post that explanation again?

It's not about choices of what to believe as I stated. It's about whether to follow Jesus and obey God (which he always did) or disobey God. That's Christianity in a nutshell for us believers.

I believe free will means we can choose to worship the Creator or the created. Of course that opens the door for what worship really means.

You just proved my point. We either obey or disobey God. Jesus guides us in order to get to the Father and heaven again. We are saved from Adam's sin and death for eternity.

It's not about worshiping the Creator or the created. We do not want to worship those he created in order to be saved. We can pay homages to God for creating us, but we also have to believe in Jesus as our Savior. One is offering thanks for our blessings while the other affects us in our thoughts and in deed. We take action from it.
Fully human and fully God according to my beliefs. I believe at first they had a hard time coming to grip with the fully God aspect but in the end it was the fully human aspect that gave them the most trouble.

If you can't understand why I brought up the account of Genesis appearing as symbols in the written Chinese language 800 years before Moses recorded it then I doubt anything else I would add will change that as your mind appears to be closed to it. Maybe you can ask the Holy Spirit.

JB, for me the most important thing in conversing with you is to let you be. Let those who can hear this hear this.

Despite what you have been told, you are not stained by Adam's sin. You are stained by your sin. If you believe you are being guided by Christ, tell me about your relationship with Christ because I have never heard you mention it before and I am curious how that relationship manifests itself.

I never said we should worship the created, JB. I said we had a choice in what we worship. We can worship the Creator or we can worship what was created which can mean many different things. Worshiping the created would be a bad thing. But yes, we are called to worship the Creator. Just curious here, but what do you believe worship is exactly? How do you worship the Creator?
 
He was big on the "here and now" and I'm pretty sure Christ was too ... the past and future are just illusions, the only reality is the present ... time is helpful measuring the illusions, but it does not exist in reality ... time itself is just an illusion ... if I remember correctly, Hindus do not have a creation story as the Abrahamic religions do ... time has always been and will always be ... there is no beginning, there is no end, the universe is a wheel, "bound to cover a little more ground" (Jerry Garcia) ...
I believe that living in the moment or present is quite important as that is the only time we can access the spirit. There is a time and a place for thinking of the past (lessons learned, seeing how God worked in our lives, etc) and the future (making plans, thinking of contingencies and whatnot) but for the most part living in the past or future is like a thief that steals our time.

The only revealed religions (God seeking man) are the Abrahamic religions. No other religion makes that claim. Those religions are men seeking God. Now I'm not throwing rocks at those religions because I do believe much can be learned about God by men seeking God, but God seeking men is a whole other kettle of fish.
 
Time and space are connected, and there is no free will, everything has happened at once. Past, present & future is an illusion.
So to tie all of this back to the OP....

Time and space are connected. Time is how we mark events in the universe. We can only experience time in the present, so that's where we should spend most of our time. Free will is an artifact of intelligence. Everyone who is in control of their own destiny has free will.
 
Yeah ... I am trying to not add an hour to all my clocks now ... bit overdue for a 2020 calendar ... and my wrist watch lies to me ... time is overrated ...
 
I assume you're okay with a 13.8 billion year old universe ... so evolution has all the time she needs ...

No, we have time dilation or light being warped and slowed through space. How can you believe 13.8 B yrs old universe when light is coming from the far reaches of the universe?

Science doesn't really know how old. It's based on getting the long time needed for evolution on Earth 4.54 B yrs. Darwin wanted more than 3 B yrs.

I don't change my clocks. I just fall back an hour in my head when doing stuff.

You can read the following and weep in your Cheerios as evolution (cannot explain beauty and complexity) has been disproved by nature once again.

"Welcome to the Real World
Appreciating the relevant evolutionary hurdles requires attention to the details of flagellar assembly. As a brief overview, a flagellum consists of three major components: the basal body which is housed in the cell membrane, the hook which extends beyond the outer cell membrane, and the filament which acts as a propeller. The basal body includes several subcomponents:

  • A series of supportive rings which attach to the cell membrane.
  • A motor comprised of a stator which attaches to the cell membrane and a rotor which rotates. The motor derives its power from the proton gradient that exists across the cell membrane.
  • A rod which transmits power to the hook and filament.
  • A transport gate which sends proteins through the central channel of the motor to assemble structures external to the cell.
Flagellar assembly includes the following steps:

  1. The basal body’s proteins self-assemble in methodical order to form different subcomponents, including the transport gate.
  2. Chaperones attach to key flagellar proteins to protect them from degradation. They also deliver them to a complex that inserts the proteins into the transport gate.
  3. The transport gate sends rod-cap proteins through the channel, and they form the rod assembly tool. The rod proteins are then allowed through, and the rod cap assembles them into the rod structure.
  4. In a similar process, the hook-cap tool forms and then assembles the hook structure.
  5. After hook assembly is completed, a hook-filament junction composed of two proteins self-assembles.
  6. A filament-cap tool forms and assembles the filament structure.
Every step in the process is meticulously timed through a complex regulatory network of flagellar genes and protein interactions. For instance, in many flagella a protein known as FliK monitors the length of the developing hook. Once the hook is sufficiently long, FliK signals the transport gate to stop sending the hook protein through and to start sending the proteins which assemble the next structures. If any major step in the entire process proceeds improperly, feedback controls signal the assembly to cease. Understanding these details allows us to properly evaluate the plausibility of evolutionary explanations of the origin of the flagellum."

...

" For any evolutionary explanation of the origin of a complex adaptation, these findings prove extremely problematic. A few straightforward calculations will highlight the magnitude of the problem. Experiments on proteins in a variety of species demonstrate that 1 in 3 mutations will completely inactivate them. Conversely, if an amino acid at a specific location in a protein (e.g., the 3rd from the end) were allowed to change to any other amino acid or to remain the same, 2/3 of amino acids on average would correspond to a viable protein. This result allows for the calculation of the chance of a random sequence of length L in the region around that of an existing protein to yield a modified version of that protein which was still operational. The maximum probability can be derived from Cauchy’s mean-value theorem to yield an upper bound of 2/3 to the power of L, P(L) < (2/3)L."

...

"Here Lies the Challenge
As alluded to already, the single evolutionary step of adding the flagellar filament requires the creation of the genes for the filament (FliC), the assembly cap (FliD), and the two joint-proteins (FlgK and FlgL) along with the genes’ regulatory regions. The cap is not essential in one special group of bacteria, but it is believed to have been essential in the hypothetical common ancestor to all flagella. Each of these proteins is so highly specialized for its role in filament construction that it could not possibly serve any other cellular purpose.

One can now assess for the addition of the filament a minimum required timescale. The number of amino acids associated with each protein are as follows: FliC — 498, FliD — 468, FlgK — 547, FlgL — 317. Their lengths all exceed the limit for a target that could ever be found in the entire history of the Earth, and most exceed the limit significantly. Compounding the challenge, all of the proteins are required before the filament can properly assemble, which dramatically increases the disparity between the available and the required waiting time.

Conversely, one might start by assuming that all four proteins could form within a few billion years. The fact that timescales grow exponentially with the number of coordinated proteins would then constrain the average time for the appearance of an individual protein in standard laboratory studies of microorganisms to less than a decade and in nature to less than a day. This result clearly does not match reality since no evidence exists that any new protein has recently appeared in any species.

The Harvard article is not unique in undermining virtually all possibility for evolution to generate complex adaptations. A completely different analysis by Doug Axe demonstrated that the maximum number of coordinated mutations (i.e., all are neutral until the final one appears) that could accumulate in any organism is six. Therefore, not only would the origination of a novel protein prove unfeasible, but even properly integrating a single flagellar gene’s regulatory region into the assembly process would be exceedingly problematic. As a consequence, adding just the filament through undirected evolution is mathematically implausible."


This is a common misunderstanding ... time and distant are the same thing, there is no difference

Which shows time and spacetime are joined together. We only have access to the three dimensions as time waits for no person haha.

The Bible doesn't say God created spacetime ... and I asked above, here's dust, make me a human body ... unraveling dimensions provide the energy ... and in a trillion generations all kinds of things can happen ...

You're just wobbling out in space somewhere ReinyDays . No wonder there is a dark cloud hanging over you.

"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters." Genesis 1:1-2
 
If you can't understand why I brought up the account of Genesis appearing as symbols in the written Chinese language 800 years before Moses recorded it then I doubt anything else I would add will change that as your mind appears to be closed to it. Maybe you can ask the Holy Spirit.

Which you provided no link, so it's all in your head. So much of random thoughts from your head.

Despite what you have been told, you are not stained by Adam's sin. You are stained by your sin.

We are all stained by both.

Just curious here, but what do you believe worship is exactly? How do you worship the Creator?

You want to put your as much of your whole self into it. It helps to go to church for service. Worship is about thanks, giving praise and adulation, and reverence. The latter which we usually hold out for special moments when someone really does something special for you.

How does one worship God? I try to give thanks daily. What's important is that it starts from the heart. Worship could be one moment of worship in a moment of solemness, going to service, as well as continuing to get to know God, i.e. read books about him or talk to others about him. Read the Bible frequently or daily. By participating in chats like this. Thinking about the things one has instead of what's lacking.

What does worship mean to you? How do you worship God?

Everyone who is in control of their own destiny has free will.

I guess I think you miss a few things when discussing God. We were given free will from God. The ultimate means we obey or disobey him. Jesus showed we all get tempted. He was given the most temptations of any person in the world.

The rest are choices you make usually for self-interest. I suppose a few could affect your life's destiny. What about your spiritual future?
 
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If you can't understand why I brought up the account of Genesis appearing as symbols in the written Chinese language 800 years before Moses recorded it then I doubt anything else I would add will change that as your mind appears to be closed to it. Maybe you can ask the Holy Spirit.

Which you provided no link, so it's all in your head. So much of random thoughts from your head.

Despite what you have been told, you are not stained by Adam's sin. You are stained by your sin.

We are all stained by both.

Just curious here, but what do you believe worship is exactly? How do you worship the Creator?

You want to put your as much of your whole self into it. It helps to go to church for service. Worship is about thanks, giving praise and adulation, and reverence. The latter which we usually hold out for special moments when someone really does something special for you.

How does one worship God? I try to give thanks daily. What's important is that it starts from the heart. Worship could be one moment of worship in a moment of solemness, going to service, as well as continuing to get to know God, i.e. read books about him or talk to others about him. Read the Bible frequently or daily. By participating in chats like this. Thinking about the things one has instead of what's lacking.

What does worship mean to you? How do you worship God?

Everyone who is in control of their own destiny has free will.

I guess I think you miss a few things when discussing God. We were given free will from God. The ultimate means we obey or disobey him. Jesus showed we all get tempted. He was given the most temptations of any person in the world.

The rest are choices you make usually for self-interest. I suppose a few could affect your life's destiny. What about your spiritual future?
You really like arguing, don't you? If you don't want to believe the account of Genesis is recorded as symbols in the Chinese language, then don't. I know it's there. I've done the work. I couldn't care less if you do because I don't care to convince you. If you want to keep reading the Bible literally and believe the earth is 6,000 years old, please do. I couldn't care less because I don't care to convince you. If you want to believe that you were stained by the sin of the first man and woman, please do. I couldn't care less because I don't care to convince you. Are you seeing a trend here?

How do you show your thanks and gratitude to God?

What does worship mean to me? It means acknowledging the worthiness of God. How do I worship God? By treating everything I do as a sacred act. Lip service does nothing. If you want to believe I miss a few things when discussing God, I'm fine with that. That's on you, not me. You will be judged the same way you judge others. Everything is choice, not everyone will own their choices. Those people transfer their control to external sources. So for them, even thought they say they have free will their actions and behaviors say otherwise.

I don't focus on my spiritual future. I focus on my spiritual present.
 
You really like arguing, don't you? If you don't want to believe the account of Genesis is recorded as symbols in the Chinese language,

I think you're getting upset. All I did was ask a question. I've never heard of Genesis as recorded as symbols in the Chinese language, so wanted a link to read where you got that. If it's your own work, then I like to hear more about it. From the Bible timeline, it would have come after the Tower of Babel.

Anyway, you and I have moved farther along with the Book of Genesis. You don't think Moses acted as scribe, but something he and his followers came up with.

My reply to your last point (not an argument, but my thoughts): I'm not sure how anyone could come up with spacetime, EMS, separation of light and dark and other cosmology, physics, and other components during the times of Moses. Even God creating the Earth is slipped in the first day with the graphic I use. I can accept claims of myths for Adam and Eve, ToK, and such, but I can't explain how the science backs up what the science parts says. It's today's science that I'm using.



Here's something new I found out about Einstein. He recognized speed of light or his c hasn't been measured, as we only know light's two way speed. It's probably correct though as our clocks on Earth are close enough to get things such as Zoom meetings accomplished around the world with knowing time zones. We don't notice the relativity difference. Yet, I don't think we can get an actual measure of time based on the light coming from the ends of the universe. The great difference in distance and space affects our time. We get time dilation. Anyway, it's something to think about.

Well, with the story of Adam and Eve it's suppose to be history but I guess nothing will convince you of that. What do you believe about A&E and how does it relate to us today then? I can't read your mind on whether you think it's myth, a story created to teach a moral lesson, something else, or don't give a crap. All you care is that you don't care what I think as there is nothing for you to convince to me. That could be very costly as I take it as God's word. Isn't one possibility that it is history? What else could it be (am asking an open question here)?

I am curious about one thing of you. Since you have no care or think there are statements you can make to me for my beliefs, then why you constantly belittle or berate atheists? It sounds like you're arguing with them. I don't think it's wrong to assume that you think you have a better position. That you think you have the truth over their lies or whatever they believe based on your Catholic beliefs.

How do you show your thanks and gratitude to God?

Through prayer and saying direct thanks. The Our Father is my daily prayer along with my own. Also, I thank God for the intuition or advice I get. I think it's also about passing along his word. I think going to church is a great way, but we can't do that now. My church has services outside and online in real time but it's not the same.

What does worship mean to me? It means acknowledging the worthiness of God. How do I worship God? By treating everything I do as a sacred act. Lip service does nothing. If you want to believe I miss a few things when discussing God, I'm fine with that. That's on you, not me. You will be judged the same way you judge others. Everything is choice, not everyone will own their choices. Those people transfer their control to external sources. So for them, even thought they say they have free will their actions and behaviors say otherwise.

I'm fine with how you worship, but where do you get "You will be judged the same way you judge others?" I don't understand "Everything is choice, not everyone will own their choices." Can you give a couple of examples? I mean I believe the choice is whether to obey or disobey God from the Bible, i.e. The Ten Commandments or Jesus' covenants. Those are objective, not subjective moral values compared to the other laws we have to follow.

I don't focus on my spiritual future. I focus on my spiritual present.
 
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You really like arguing, don't you? If you don't want to believe the account of Genesis is recorded as symbols in the Chinese language,

I think you're getting upset. All I did was ask a question. I've never heard of Genesis as recorded as symbols in the Chinese language, so wanted a link to read where you got that. If it's your own work, then I like to hear more about it. From the Bible timeline, it would have come after the Tower of Babel.

Anyway, you and I have moved farther along with the Book of Genesis. You don't think Moses acted as scribe, but something he and his followers came up with.

My reply to your last point (not an argument, but my thoughts): I'm not sure how anyone could come up with spacetime, EMS, separation of light and dark and other cosmology, physics, and other components during the times of Moses. Even God creating the Earth is slipped in the first day with the graphic I use. I can accept claims of myths for Adam and Eve, ToK, and such, but I can't explain how the science backs up what the science parts says. It's today's science that I'm using.



Here's something new I found out about Einstein. He recognized speed of light or his c hasn't been measured, as we only know light's two way speed. It's probably correct though as our clocks on Earth are close enough to get things such as Zoom meetings accomplished around the world with knowing time zones. We don't notice the relativity difference. Yet, I don't think we can get an actual measure of time based on the light coming from the ends of the universe. The great difference in distance and space affects our time. We get time dilation. Anyway, it's something to think about.

Well, with the story of Adam and Eve it's suppose to be history but I guess nothing will convince you of that. What do you believe about A&E and how does it relate to us today then? I can't read your mind on whether you think it's myth, a story created to teach a moral lesson, something else, or don't give a crap. All you care is that you don't care what I think as there is nothing for you to convince to me. That could be very costly as I take it as God's word. Isn't one possibility that it is history? What else could it be (am asking an open question here)?

I am curious about one thing of you. Since you have no care or think there are statements you can make to me for my beliefs, then why you constantly belittle or berate atheists? It sounds like you're arguing with them. I don't think it's wrong to assume that you think you have a better position. That you think you have the truth over their lies or whatever they believe based on your Catholic beliefs.

How do you show your thanks and gratitude to God?

Through prayer and saying direct thanks. The Our Father is my daily prayer along with my own. Also, I thank God for the intuition or advice I get. I think it's also about passing along his word. I think going to church is a great way, but we can't do that now. My church has services outside and online in real time but it's not the same.

What does worship mean to me? It means acknowledging the worthiness of God. How do I worship God? By treating everything I do as a sacred act. Lip service does nothing. If you want to believe I miss a few things when discussing God, I'm fine with that. That's on you, not me. You will be judged the same way you judge others. Everything is choice, not everyone will own their choices. Those people transfer their control to external sources. So for them, even thought they say they have free will their actions and behaviors say otherwise.

I'm fine with how you worship, but where do you get "You will be judged the same way you judge others?" I don't understand "Everything is choice, not everyone will own their choices." Can you give a couple of examples? I mean I believe the choice is whether to obey or disobey God from the Bible, i.e. The Ten Commandments or Jesus' covenants. Those are objective, not subjective moral values compared to the other laws we have to follow.

I don't focus on my spiritual future. I focus on my spiritual present.

I'm not upset, JB. My patience is wearing thin with your inability to accept the reality that I don't care to convince you of anything. I have already explained to you multiple times that it is not possible for us to reconcile differences in interpretation because you read Genesis literally and I read Genesis allegorically and marry that interpretation to history and science. So nothing will ever be gained from discussing it with you. You did not just ask a question, you keep trying to get me to convince you of my beliefs. So you are being dishonest when you say all you did was ask a question. I am more than happy to discuss any number of things with you but interpreting scriptures and discussing science are not part of that. When will you accept that? How many more times do I need to explain it to you? You are wrong about the timeline but I have no desire to convince you.

Yes, the recording of Genesis as symbols in the Chinese language happened after the great migration from Mesopatamia which is what the account of the Tower of Babel recorded allegorically and ~800 years before Moses. Let me ask you this... do you think it is likely that the first time the Hebrews heard about Abraham, Isaac and Jacob was from Moses? Or do you believe those accounts were common knowledge that had been passed down from generation to generation. I believe it was the latter. If you believe it was the latter too, then why wouldn't all the other accounts before Abraham have been passed down the same way. So for the earlier Hebrew history, Moses acted as a scribe. But for his present time he was the author.

I don't believe people in ancient times (well before the time of Moses) did come up with spacetime, EMS, separation of light and dark and other cosmology, physics, and other components. That's my point for why I don't use what they passed down as science. For all I know a vision was given that showed how creation unfolded and this was how they described what they saw with their limited understanding. What I find most remarkable about it is that they nailed all of the key things; there was a beginning, creation unfolded over time, it was sequential, it was done in stages and man arose from that creation.

I'm not convinced we know everything there is to know about light period, let alone how fast it travels in the regions between the galaxies.

It's not that I don't take Adam and Eve as history. It's that I take Adam and Eve as more than history. From the Hebrews perspective it seems to me that they were doing the best they could in establishing lineage given the limitations that they had. I do accept the timeline as representing the earliest time that their forefathers began passing down knowledge from generation to generation. But I view it as a loose timeline. I believe the more important part of the account has to do with establishing the uniqueness of man compared to God's other creatures and man's greatest challenge; worshiping the created rather than the Creator. I don't believe original sin is disobeying God. I believe the original sin was not taking accountability for disobeying God. If every person on this planet took accountability for their mistakes and errors, the world would transform itself overnight.

I have no quarrel with atheists. I have a quarrel with militant atheists; atheists that condemn respect for people for no other reason than they believe in God. So yeah, I oppose them. I'm not trying to convince them. I am defeating them. I can't think of a greater existential threat to humanity than militant atheism.

Try this on... if someone gave you a gift, what would be the best thing you could do to show them how much you appreciated it? You would use it. God has given us the greatest gift there is. We are literally the pinnacle of creation. We have literally won the cosmic lottery. So the best way we can show thanks and give praise to God is by using the gift that He gave us. That's how I worship God. That's how I give thanks to God and that's how I praise God. Through my actions and behaviors. I may not always be successful but I am always striving to be successful.

We treat people how we see them. Some people we like and we treat them better because of it. We will cut them more slack. We will judge everything they do in the best possible light. Other people we don't like and we will treat them worse because of it. We will judge everything they do in the harshest possible light. We treat and judge ourselves like we treat and judge people we like. The quote in the NT about judging others is directed at judging others harshly. I don't want Jesus to judge me harshly so I make every effort to not judge others unfairly. In fact, I abstain from judging the person. I only judge behaviors. It makes it much easier to be objective and in reality is closer to the truth as honest men can do dishonest things and still be honest men.

It has been my experience that not owning my mistakes is my greatest barrier to progressing in spirit. When I look around I see many people who don't own their mistakes. People will make mistakes, it's what they do after the mistake that matters.
 
I'm not upset, JB. My patience is wearing thin with your inability to accept the reality that I don't care to convince you of anything. I have already explained to you multiple times that it is not possible for us to reconcile differences in interpretation because you read Genesis literally and I read Genesis allegorically and marry that interpretation to history and science. So nothing will ever be gained from discussing it with you. You did not just ask a question, you keep trying to get me to convince you of my beliefs. So you are being dishonest when you say all you did was ask a question. I am more than happy to discuss any number of things with you but interpreting scriptures and discussing science are not part of that. When will you accept that? How many more times do I need to explain it to you? You are wrong about the timeline but I have no desire to convince you.

Believe me I'm not waiting to be convinced of anything, but just trying to see where you are coming from if not the Bible. Yours sounds like philosophy to me as I am not familiar with the major religion in China. Or Taiwan. Or Hong Kong. I don't know where you were born or if you were born in the US where your ancestors were born. If you weren't brought up on Genesis, then there are the following including Genesis -- The Beginning of Creation in Scriptures of Different Religions | Review of Religions.

Let me ask you this... do you think it is likely that the first time the Hebrews heard about Abraham, Isaac and Jacob was from Moses?

Some of the things you mention, I don't understand. I think you believe in the science of atheism timeline of 13.8 B yr old universe and 4.5 B yr old Earth.

Yes, Moses was their leader and what he got from God is what he taught. With Moses, it started with the Ten Commandments and what he transcribed as the OT or the Torah.

I don't believe original sin is disobeying God. I believe the original sin was not taking accountability for disobeying God. If every person on this planet took accountability for their mistakes and errors, the world would transform itself overnight.

The original sin was Adam and Sin thinking they were like God. IOW letting their egos get the best of them from Satan playing it to them. They had to decide to sin first. After that, it became disobeying God by eating the fruit from the ToK which was the only rule God had.

As for taking accountability and transforming overnight, I don't think people do that for their mistakes. Their egos get in the way or they rationalize the mistake away or they find someone else or something else to blame. If it were that easy for every person to account for themselves, then sure I agree. Yet, this is one of the last things we see -- people owing up to their mistakes. I'm not sure we can do that freely in the US. Otherwise, you get sued.

Try this on... if someone gave you a gift, what would be the best thing you could do to show them how much you appreciated it? You would use it. God has given us the greatest gift there is. We are literally the pinnacle of creation. We have literally won the cosmic lottery. So the best way we can show thanks and give praise to God is by using the gift that He gave us. That's how I worship God. That's how I give thanks to God and that's how I praise God. Through my actions and behaviors. I may not always be successful but I am always striving to be successful.

I can get behind that. I think it's also giving to others with the one hand and receiving grace with the other as Billy Graham said.

It has been my experience that not owning my mistakes is my greatest barrier to progressing in spirit. When I look around I see many people who don't own their mistakes. People will make mistakes, it's what they do after the mistake that matters.

I hear you brother and agree.

As for the things you said, but didn't address it means I heard your thoughts and views and accept them as your expressions and you being you.
 
I'm not upset, JB. My patience is wearing thin with your inability to accept the reality that I don't care to convince you of anything. I have already explained to you multiple times that it is not possible for us to reconcile differences in interpretation because you read Genesis literally and I read Genesis allegorically and marry that interpretation to history and science. So nothing will ever be gained from discussing it with you. You did not just ask a question, you keep trying to get me to convince you of my beliefs. So you are being dishonest when you say all you did was ask a question. I am more than happy to discuss any number of things with you but interpreting scriptures and discussing science are not part of that. When will you accept that? How many more times do I need to explain it to you? You are wrong about the timeline but I have no desire to convince you.

Believe me I'm not waiting to be convinced of anything, but just trying to see where you are coming from if not the Bible. Yours sounds like philosophy to me as I am not familiar with the major religion in China. Or Taiwan. Or Hong Kong. I don't know where you were born or if you were born in the US where your ancestors were born. If you weren't brought up on Genesis, then there are the following including Genesis -- The Beginning of Creation in Scriptures of Different Religions | Review of Religions.

Let me ask you this... do you think it is likely that the first time the Hebrews heard about Abraham, Isaac and Jacob was from Moses?

Some of the things you mention, I don't understand. I think you believe in the science of atheism timeline of 13.8 B yr old universe and 4.5 B yr old Earth.

Yes, Moses was their leader and what he got from God is what he taught. With Moses, it started with the Ten Commandments and what he transcribed as the OT or the Torah.

I don't believe original sin is disobeying God. I believe the original sin was not taking accountability for disobeying God. If every person on this planet took accountability for their mistakes and errors, the world would transform itself overnight.

The original sin was Adam and Sin thinking they were like God. IOW letting their egos get the best of them from Satan playing it to them. They had to decide to sin first. After that, it became disobeying God by eating the fruit from the ToK which was the only rule God had.

As for taking accountability and transforming overnight, I don't think people do that for their mistakes. Their egos get in the way or they rationalize the mistake away or they find someone else or something else to blame. If it were that easy for every person to account for themselves, then sure I agree. Yet, this is one of the last things we see -- people owing up to their mistakes. I'm not sure we can do that freely in the US. Otherwise, you get sued.

Try this on... if someone gave you a gift, what would be the best thing you could do to show them how much you appreciated it? You would use it. God has given us the greatest gift there is. We are literally the pinnacle of creation. We have literally won the cosmic lottery. So the best way we can show thanks and give praise to God is by using the gift that He gave us. That's how I worship God. That's how I give thanks to God and that's how I praise God. Through my actions and behaviors. I may not always be successful but I am always striving to be successful.

I can get behind that. I think it's also giving to others with the one hand and receiving grace with the other as Billy Graham said.

It has been my experience that not owning my mistakes is my greatest barrier to progressing in spirit. When I look around I see many people who don't own their mistakes. People will make mistakes, it's what they do after the mistake that matters.

I hear you brother and agree.

As for the things you said, but didn't address it means I heard your thoughts and views and accept them as your expressions and you being you.
I'm done with you. Good luck.
 
I'm not upset, JB. My patience is wearing thin with your inability to accept the reality that I don't care to convince you of anything. I have already explained to you multiple times that it is not possible for us to reconcile differences in interpretation because you read Genesis literally and I read Genesis allegorically and marry that interpretation to history and science. So nothing will ever be gained from discussing it with you. You did not just ask a question, you keep trying to get me to convince you of my beliefs. So you are being dishonest when you say all you did was ask a question. I am more than happy to discuss any number of things with you but interpreting scriptures and discussing science are not part of that. When will you accept that? How many more times do I need to explain it to you? You are wrong about the timeline but I have no desire to convince you.

Believe me I'm not waiting to be convinced of anything, but just trying to see where you are coming from if not the Bible. Yours sounds like philosophy to me as I am not familiar with the major religion in China. Or Taiwan. Or Hong Kong. I don't know where you were born or if you were born in the US where your ancestors were born. If you weren't brought up on Genesis, then there are the following including Genesis -- The Beginning of Creation in Scriptures of Different Religions | Review of Religions.

Let me ask you this... do you think it is likely that the first time the Hebrews heard about Abraham, Isaac and Jacob was from Moses?

Some of the things you mention, I don't understand. I think you believe in the science of atheism timeline of 13.8 B yr old universe and 4.5 B yr old Earth.

Yes, Moses was their leader and what he got from God is what he taught. With Moses, it started with the Ten Commandments and what he transcribed as the OT or the Torah.

I don't believe original sin is disobeying God. I believe the original sin was not taking accountability for disobeying God. If every person on this planet took accountability for their mistakes and errors, the world would transform itself overnight.

The original sin was Adam and Sin thinking they were like God. IOW letting their egos get the best of them from Satan playing it to them. They had to decide to sin first. After that, it became disobeying God by eating the fruit from the ToK which was the only rule God had.

As for taking accountability and transforming overnight, I don't think people do that for their mistakes. Their egos get in the way or they rationalize the mistake away or they find someone else or something else to blame. If it were that easy for every person to account for themselves, then sure I agree. Yet, this is one of the last things we see -- people owing up to their mistakes. I'm not sure we can do that freely in the US. Otherwise, you get sued.

Try this on... if someone gave you a gift, what would be the best thing you could do to show them how much you appreciated it? You would use it. God has given us the greatest gift there is. We are literally the pinnacle of creation. We have literally won the cosmic lottery. So the best way we can show thanks and give praise to God is by using the gift that He gave us. That's how I worship God. That's how I give thanks to God and that's how I praise God. Through my actions and behaviors. I may not always be successful but I am always striving to be successful.

I can get behind that. I think it's also giving to others with the one hand and receiving grace with the other as Billy Graham said.

It has been my experience that not owning my mistakes is my greatest barrier to progressing in spirit. When I look around I see many people who don't own their mistakes. People will make mistakes, it's what they do after the mistake that matters.

I hear you brother and agree.

As for the things you said, but didn't address it means I heard your thoughts and views and accept them as your expressions and you being you.
I'm done with you. Good luck.

Haha. Nice. We'll discuss again in the Rubber Room.
 
I'm not upset, JB. My patience is wearing thin with your inability to accept the reality that I don't care to convince you of anything. I have already explained to you multiple times that it is not possible for us to reconcile differences in interpretation because you read Genesis literally and I read Genesis allegorically and marry that interpretation to history and science. So nothing will ever be gained from discussing it with you. You did not just ask a question, you keep trying to get me to convince you of my beliefs. So you are being dishonest when you say all you did was ask a question. I am more than happy to discuss any number of things with you but interpreting scriptures and discussing science are not part of that. When will you accept that? How many more times do I need to explain it to you? You are wrong about the timeline but I have no desire to convince you.

Believe me I'm not waiting to be convinced of anything, but just trying to see where you are coming from if not the Bible. Yours sounds like philosophy to me as I am not familiar with the major religion in China. Or Taiwan. Or Hong Kong. I don't know where you were born or if you were born in the US where your ancestors were born. If you weren't brought up on Genesis, then there are the following including Genesis -- The Beginning of Creation in Scriptures of Different Religions | Review of Religions.

Let me ask you this... do you think it is likely that the first time the Hebrews heard about Abraham, Isaac and Jacob was from Moses?

Some of the things you mention, I don't understand. I think you believe in the science of atheism timeline of 13.8 B yr old universe and 4.5 B yr old Earth.

Yes, Moses was their leader and what he got from God is what he taught. With Moses, it started with the Ten Commandments and what he transcribed as the OT or the Torah.

I don't believe original sin is disobeying God. I believe the original sin was not taking accountability for disobeying God. If every person on this planet took accountability for their mistakes and errors, the world would transform itself overnight.

The original sin was Adam and Sin thinking they were like God. IOW letting their egos get the best of them from Satan playing it to them. They had to decide to sin first. After that, it became disobeying God by eating the fruit from the ToK which was the only rule God had.

As for taking accountability and transforming overnight, I don't think people do that for their mistakes. Their egos get in the way or they rationalize the mistake away or they find someone else or something else to blame. If it were that easy for every person to account for themselves, then sure I agree. Yet, this is one of the last things we see -- people owing up to their mistakes. I'm not sure we can do that freely in the US. Otherwise, you get sued.

Try this on... if someone gave you a gift, what would be the best thing you could do to show them how much you appreciated it? You would use it. God has given us the greatest gift there is. We are literally the pinnacle of creation. We have literally won the cosmic lottery. So the best way we can show thanks and give praise to God is by using the gift that He gave us. That's how I worship God. That's how I give thanks to God and that's how I praise God. Through my actions and behaviors. I may not always be successful but I am always striving to be successful.

I can get behind that. I think it's also giving to others with the one hand and receiving grace with the other as Billy Graham said.

It has been my experience that not owning my mistakes is my greatest barrier to progressing in spirit. When I look around I see many people who don't own their mistakes. People will make mistakes, it's what they do after the mistake that matters.

I hear you brother and agree.

As for the things you said, but didn't address it means I heard your thoughts and views and accept them as your expressions and you being you.
I'm done with you. Good luck.

Haha. Nice. We'll discuss again in the Rubber Room.
Not me.
 
It scares the hell out of me, science says basically, everything is predetermined. Um spooky actions at a distance, quantum singularities. God doesn't play dice?
The scary thing is that we are computers who have a pre determined purpose that we can not see. The more we figure out how DNA works the clearer this is. I own and train German Shorthaires and I know exactly which way a puppy will turn in a certain situation that they have never been in before
 
The latest I got has to do with Bohr's Copenhagen Interpretation. I think it is stating that what we see as particle or wave depends on superposition, probability, and measurement. The last is what determines it and some think this means multiverses to represent the different realities. Or that means it depends on it reality being observed in which the multiverse collapses into one observation and then another observation and still another observation, etc..

I found there was an experiment done to demonstrate the Copenhagen Interpretation by Max Planck Researchers in Berlin that for electrons from nitrogen molecules, the wave-particle character exists simultaneously. Good stuff, right? I want to see this.

"For the first time, the researchers were able to show the coherent character of electron emissions from such a molecule, in this analogue to the double slit experiment. They used a weak x-ray to destabilise the innermost, and thus most strongly localised, electrons of nitrogen from the molecule, and then followed their movement in the molecular frame of reference using ion coincidence measurements. In addition, the researchers succeeded in proving something long doubted: that a disruption of the reflective symmetry of this molecule leads to a partial loss of coherence through the introduction of two different heavy isotopes, in this case N14 and N15. The electrons begin to localise partially on one of the two, now distinguishable, atoms. This is equivalent to partially marking one of the two slits in Young’s double slit experiment. This is partial "which way" information, because the marking gives information about which path the electron took.

The experiments were carried out by members of the working group "atomic physics" of the FHI at the synchrotron radiation laboratories BESSY in Berlin and HASYLAB at DESY in Hamburg. The measurements took place using a multi-detector array for combined electron and ion proof behind what are called undulator beam pipes, which deliver weak x-rays with a high intensity and spectral resolution."


This means that we can control whether the electron or photon is particle or wave under extreme conditions. I have no idea of how it could has been used or what it led to. We are already fifteen years past the discovery into our reality.
 
Time and space are connected, and there is no free will, everything has happened at once. Past, present & future is an illusion.
Space is time.

I would say time is space. Notice God said, "In the beginning..." Space only gives you the three dimensions. Time gives you the three dimensions and time.

For example, we have three dimensional space which can be represented by the x, y, and z-axes. If someone lives in flatland, then we can put an orange there which will look circular to the flatlanders. Thus, we can affect the second and first dimensions from the third.
God did not say in the beginning........................
 
Time and space are connected, and there is no free will, everything has happened at once. Past, present & future is an illusion.
Space is time.

I would say time is space. Notice God said, "In the beginning..." Space only gives you the three dimensions. Time gives you the three dimensions and time.

For example, we have three dimensional space which can be represented by the x, y, and z-axes. If someone lives in flatland, then we can put an orange there which will look circular to the flatlanders. Thus, we can affect the second and first dimensions from the third.
God did not say in the beginning........................
You are correct...B’Ray-Shis does not mean, “In the beginning”.
 
Time and space are connected, and there is no free will, everything has happened at once. Past, present & future is an illusion.
Space is time.

I would say time is space. Notice God said, "In the beginning..." Space only gives you the three dimensions. Time gives you the three dimensions and time.

For example, we have three dimensional space which can be represented by the x, y, and z-axes. If someone lives in flatland, then we can put an orange there which will look circular to the flatlanders. Thus, we can affect the second and first dimensions from the third.
God did not say in the beginning........................
You are correct...B’Ray-Shis does not mean, “In the beginning”.
Sorry I am all out of Peyote
 

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