Labour to move power from Westminster

[alexa]

This is for the whole of the UK. I think it is created by Gordon Brown and I think his major motivation was as before to stop Scottish Independence. He is certainly there at the front involved in this. Last time the three Westminster Parliamentarians who came up to Scotland when they knew the result could be 'Yes' gave Scotland verbal agreements on many changes. They were called 'The Vow' but they were not kept and then there was the biggest lie they told the people of Scotland and one which was most important. The only way we could be certain to stay in the EU was if we voted against Scottish Independence.

It does sound like it could be an improvement. The end of the unelected house of Lords with another elected Chamber and power and some Civil Servants would be moved out of London.

MP's would be banned from having second jobs. That one I really like. About time. Oh I see it is most jobs would be banned. I am sure they will find a way to use that for more or less any they want

Both Wales and Scotland would get extra powers and NI improved - which is contrasted with the current situation where they are using Brexit to take them back.

There is also some ideas of bringing ordinary citizens to make decisions - for instance on whether MP's have breached rules.

Labour would abolish 'indefensible' House of Lords, pledges Starmer | ITV News

Labour promised to 'clean up Westminster' as Keir Starmer and Gordon Brown set out a blueprint for political and economic devolution. | ITV National News

www.itv.com

It does look good. I have a little problem though. Last night I was listening to someone who is usually reliable saying that the Tories were going to be working on taking away Democracy with their Brexit policies and he said they were going to do it in such a way that it simply would not be possible for Labour to make changes. He did not expect Labour to be providing something like this.

 

[Uncensored2008]

I figured that the seat of power for Englandstan would be moved to Mecca....

 

[alexa]

I figured that the seat of power for Englandstan would be moved to Mecca....

I think I put too much emphasis on that. Power will still stay in Westminster. It is just that some will move out and that also applies to new economic investments.

 

[Uncensored2008]

I think I put too much emphasis on that. Power will still stay in Westminster. It is just that some will move out and that also applies to new economic investments.

The Caliphate will decide where power is stationed, and you will obey as good little Dhimmis...

 

[alexa]

Don't ruin the thread.

 

[Tommy Tainant]

This is for the whole of the UK. I think it is created by Gordon Brown and I think his major motivation was as before to stop Scottish Independence. He is certainly there at the front involved in this. Last time the three Westminster Parliamentarians who came up to Scotland when they knew the result could be 'Yes' gave Scotland verbal agreements on many changes. They were called 'The Vow' but they were not kept and then there was the biggest lie they told the people of Scotland and one which was most important. The only way we could be certain to stay in the EU was if we voted against Scottish Independence.

It does sound like it could be an improvement. The end of the unelected house of Lords with another elected Chamber and power and some Civil Servants would be moved out of London.

MP's would be banned from having second jobs. That one I really like. About time. Oh I see it is most jobs would be banned. I am sure they will find a way to use that for more or less any they want

Both Wales and Scotland would get extra powers and NI improved - which is contrasted with the current situation where they are using Brexit to take them back.

There is also some ideas of bringing ordinary citizens to make decisions - for instance on whether MP's have breached rules.

Labour would abolish 'indefensible' House of Lords, pledges Starmer | ITV News

Labour promised to 'clean up Westminster' as Keir Starmer and Gordon Brown set out a blueprint for political and economic devolution. | ITV National News

www.itv.com

It does look good. I have a little problem though. Last night I was listening to someone who is usually reliable saying that the Tories were going to be working on taking away Democracy with their Brexit policies and he said they were going to do it in such a way that it simply would not be possible for Labour to make changes. He did not expect Labour to be providing something like this.

I think its a load of bollox. Scraps from the table.Where is the path to Indy for captive nations ?

 

[alexa]

I think its a load of bollox. Scraps from the table.Where is the path to Indy for captive nations ?

We would need to look at it to know in the same way as I would need look into what Scotland was offering. One time Nicola tried offering Austerity. What interests me is that Gordon Brown who has always been a unionist also was close to John Smith before he died. John Smith although certainly on the right of the Labour Party was very interested in Democracy. Arguably at the moment all we have is a vote every few years not necessarily with anyone whose political views you share. The belief at the time was that Thatcher was destroying what there was of our unwritten Constituency and that massive change had to be made to save our Democracy. Along came Charter 88

To give you an idea, these were the demands
Hmm not so good at the cut and paste. Those bottom ones should be 5-10
Box 1.
Charter 88: the ten concrete demands

1. Enshrine by means of a Bill of Rights, such civil liberties as the right to peaceful assembly, to freedom of association, to freedom from discrimination, to freedom from detention without trail, to trial by jury, to privacy and to freedom of expression.
2. Subject executive powers and prerogatives, by whomsoever exercised, to the rule of law.
3. Establish freedom of information and open government.
4. Create a fair electoral system of proportional representation.
   • Reform the upper house to establish a democratic, non-hereditary second chamber.
   • Place the executive under the power of a democratically renewed parliament and all agencies of the state under the rule of law.
   • Ensure the independence of a reformed judiciary.
   • Provide legal remedies for all abuses of power by the state and by officials of central and local government.
   • Guarantee an equitable distribution of power between the nations of the UK and between local, regional and central government.
   • Draw up a written constitution, anchored in the idea of universal citizenship, which incorporates these reforms.

Charter 88 and the Constitutional Reform Movement: a Retrospective

Abstract. This paper argues that Charter 88 was fundamentally both the product and catalyser of an ‘aversive’ constitutionalist reaction on the Left and Ce

academic.oup.com

Now Smith was well up for this. He went with Blair and possibly Brown to their meeting and promised Devolution to Wales and Scotland if wanted. He was a lawyer and Democracy was a genuine held desire of his. When he died and Blair took over he was supposed to carry on with this and included in it was supposed to be Mayors in all the different districts of England along which each area having an equal say in whether we did important things like Go to War. Blair went as far as getting the devolution for Scotland and Wales going and he even went some way with freedom of information and some other things but really he left it there. There used to be some findable article on the Web where he acknowledges that he chose to sell out Smith's hopes of democracy to Neo Liberalism.

If you want to do more just do a search for Charter 88. I have not been able to find things like the above about Blair but there are some articles on it by Open Democracy.

I think Gordon Brown is hoping he can get this going in some way and be able to sell this to Scotland and keep the UK together but as an alive and vigorous democracy. I think that is definitely worth keeping an eye on.

 

[Tommy Tainant]

We would need to look at it to know in the same way as I would need look into what Scotland was offering. One time Nicola tried offering Austerity. What interests me is that Gordon Brown who has always been a unionist also was close to John Smith before he died. John Smith although certainly on the right of the Labour Party was very interested in Democracy. Arguably at the moment all we have is a vote every few years not necessarily with anyone whose political views you share. The belief at the time was that Thatcher was destroying what there was of our unwritten Constituency and that massive change had to be made to save our Democracy. Along came Charter 88

To give you an idea, these were the demands
Hmm not so good at the cut and paste. Those bottom ones should be 5-10
Box 1.
Charter 88: the ten concrete demands

1. Enshrine by means of a Bill of Rights, such civil liberties as the right to peaceful assembly, to freedom of association, to freedom from discrimination, to freedom from detention without trail, to trial by jury, to privacy and to freedom of expression.
2. Subject executive powers and prerogatives, by whomsoever exercised, to the rule of law.
3. Establish freedom of information and open government.
4. Create a fair electoral system of proportional representation.
   • Reform the upper house to establish a democratic, non-hereditary second chamber.
   • Place the executive under the power of a democratically renewed parliament and all agencies of the state under the rule of law.
   • Ensure the independence of a reformed judiciary.
   • Provide legal remedies for all abuses of power by the state and by officials of central and local government.
   • Guarantee an equitable distribution of power between the nations of the UK and between local, regional and central government.
   • Draw up a written constitution, anchored in the idea of universal citizenship, which incorporates these reforms.

Charter 88 and the Constitutional Reform Movement: a Retrospective

Abstract. This paper argues that Charter 88 was fundamentally both the product and catalyser of an ‘aversive’ constitutionalist reaction on the Left and Ce

academic.oup.com

Now Smith was well up for this. He went with Blair and possibly Brown to their meeting and promised Devolution to Wales and Scotland if wanted. He was a lawyer and Democracy was a genuine held desire of his. When he died and Blair took over he was supposed to carry on with this and included in it was supposed to be Mayors in all the different districts of England along which each area having an equal say in whether we did important things like Go to War. Blair went as far as getting the devolution for Scotland and Wales going and he even went some way with freedom of information and some other things but really he left it there. There used to be some findable article on the Web where he acknowledges that he chose to sell out Smith's hopes of democracy to Neo Liberalism.

If you want to do more just do a search for Charter 88. I have not been able to find things like the above about Blair but there are some articles on it by Open Democracy.

I think Gordon Brown is hoping he can get this going in some way and be able to sell this to Scotland and keep the UK together but as an alive and vigorous democracy. I think that is definitely worth keeping an eye on.

Its a bit like prisoners being offered steak on sunday.
Northern Ireland has the promise of a referendum every 7 years . We should have that.

 

[Uncensored2008]

Its a bit like prisoners being offered steak on sunday.
Northern Ireland has the promise of a referendum every 7 years . We should have that.

In Pakistan?

 

[alexa]

Its a bit like prisoners being offered steak on sunday.
Northern Ireland has the promise of a referendum every 7 years . We should have that.

I'm really not sure whether your thinking is connected to reality. I have not heard of any pressing demand for independence from Wales and one of the reasons always given is that Wales could not survive economically. I know this is always what is said about Scotland as well and it is not to the best of my knowledge true here but I guess I have been convinced that is the case with Wales.

With respect to Northern Ireland having the right to a Referendum every 7 years. That obviously was part of the Good Friday agreement. Given that we are supposed to be democracies we ought to have the right to have such Referendums when the people want and of course it is undemocratic that Westminster is refusing Scotland this at this time. The reason being that they believe Independence would win whereas in 2014 they allowed the Referendum because they believed it would lose. It is my belief the reason Gordon Brown would want to be involved in this at this time, is because he believes this time Scotland would go for Indy.

Ireland got the right to a Referendum every 7 years because it had been fighting for over 30 years. Is there any information to believe Wales might do similar?

We can only start with what we have now and lack of genuine democracy is a very important part of that. At the last Referendum Brown promised that Scotland would be made as Federal as was possible. As I said in the other thread this did not happen. He would appear to be trying to make that happen again but this time it would not just be for Scotland but also for Wales and regions of England...and this time he knows that to have any chance of convincing Scot's he must have that Federal system agreed There is a possibility that it could be too late for Scotland but at this crucial time I definitely think it is worth looking into and potentially offers a lot more than giving prisoners steak on Sundays.