Just your average day of "peaceful Islam"...

[Coyote]

It doesn't take a scholar to see the complete lack of OUTRAGE in the muslim world over this supposed "misinterpretation" of the Koran and what it allows. Quite the opposite, the madrasasas teach any deception to non-muslims is acceptable and adviseable. So when supposed moderates timidly denounce the jihadist nature of modern islam, we Christians shouldn't (and don't) buy it. Muslims not actively and vocally challenging the modern form of islam should be considered side-liners who will quickly change their tune to support open warfare with non-muslim cultures. Discussions about the subltle differences of interpretation of the Koran pale by comparison to the atrocious acts being committed in the name of Muhammad.

You've been to a Madrassa?

 

[BullKurtz]

It doesn't take a scholar to see the complete lack of OUTRAGE in the muslim world over this supposed "misinterpretation" of the Koran and what it allows. Quite the opposite, the madrasasas teach any deception to non-muslims is acceptable and adviseable. So when supposed moderates timidly denounce the jihadist nature of modern islam, we Christians shouldn't (and don't) buy it. Muslims not actively and vocally challenging the modern form of islam should be considered side-liners who will quickly change their tune to support open warfare with non-muslim cultures. Discussions about the subltle differences of interpretation of the Koran pale by comparison to the atrocious acts being committed in the name of Muhammad.

You've been to a Madrassa?

Of course not, have you? Have you ever seen the expression on a suicide-bomber's face? I have and it is one of pure bliss. Who taught him that? You are defending concepts no longer followed in the muslim world. And I take exception to your thought that there is an anti-muslim bias in the US. What other city in the world would allow a mosque in a building hit by debris from the muslim attack on the World Trade Center? Are you reading what the muslim zealots are doing to Christians in Egypt? Or in Libya? Or Iran? And now in Iraq and Syria and Somalia? Frankly a parsing of words about whether lying is inherent in the muslim faith is of little interest to me compared to the actions perpetrated in the name of that garbage religion.

 

[Coyote]

It doesn't take a scholar to see the complete lack of OUTRAGE in the muslim world over this supposed "misinterpretation" of the Koran and what it allows. Quite the opposite, the madrasasas teach any deception to non-muslims is acceptable and adviseable. So when supposed moderates timidly denounce the jihadist nature of modern islam, we Christians shouldn't (and don't) buy it. Muslims not actively and vocally challenging the modern form of islam should be considered side-liners who will quickly change their tune to support open warfare with non-muslim cultures. Discussions about the subltle differences of interpretation of the Koran pale by comparison to the atrocious acts being committed in the name of Muhammad.

You've been to a Madrassa?

Of course not, have you?

No. I'm not making claims about them.

Have you ever seen the expression on a suicide-bomber's face? I have and it is one of pure bliss. Who taught him that? You are defending concepts no longer followed in the muslim world.

I'm defending nothing.

And I take exception to your thought that there is an anti-muslim bias in the US. What other city in the world would allow a mosque in a building hit by debris from the muslim attack on the World Trade Center? Are you reading what the muslim zealots are doing to Christians in Egypt? Or in Libya? Or Iran? And now in Iraq and Syria and Somalia? Frankly a parsing of words about whether lying is inherent in the muslim faith is of little interest to me compared to the actions perpetrated in the name of that garbage religion.

There is an anti-Muslim bias. Just go to sites like Atlas Shrugs and Islam Watch.

 

[Godboy]

There is an anti-Muslim bias. Just go to sites like Atlas Shrugs and Islam Watch.

Websites like that didn't start popping up because Islam is peaceful. If you go around acting like an asshole, guess what, people will think youre an asshole.

 

[BullKurtz]

You've been to a Madrassa?

Of course not, have you?

No. I'm not making claims about them.

Have you ever seen the expression on a suicide-bomber's face? I have and it is one of pure bliss. Who taught him that? You are defending concepts no longer followed in the muslim world.

I'm defending nothing.

And I take exception to your thought that there is an anti-muslim bias in the US. What other city in the world would allow a mosque in a building hit by debris from the muslim attack on the World Trade Center? Are you reading what the muslim zealots are doing to Christians in Egypt? Or in Libya? Or Iran? And now in Iraq and Syria and Somalia? Frankly a parsing of words about whether lying is inherent in the muslim faith is of little interest to me compared to the actions perpetrated in the name of that garbage religion.

There is an anti-Muslim bias. Just go to sites like Atlas Shrugs and Islam Watch.

"making claims"? Were you at the bombing of Hiroshima? If not then by your reasoning it didn't happen. And you are defending islamic teaching by what you've written here. Why? Normally we see this from leftists who see Christianity as the enemy and so turn to other types of worship from Buddhism to witchcraft in defiance of Christianity. Understand this, we were attacked by islam, we have fought islam for the last decade and there are souls being lost as I write this to that false idolatry. It's common knowledge what's being taught in the madrasses, especially from the house of saud. We defended them from Saddam's tank columns and are attacked in return. I ask again, have you ever been in a mosque or in particular a madrasses mosque? If not, it's you who are making claims that are false and you have no way of proving. This is my last word on the matter.

 

[Bloodrock44]

"Is the idea of Permission to Lie to Nonbelievers pervasive and operative within Islam on a living-breathing basis?

Is the idea of Permsision to Lie to Nonbelievers also pervasive and operative within Judaism on a living-breathing basis?

Answer: No, to either.

I've seen no evidence that either Jews or Muslims as a group are any more dishonest then any other religious group...

I reject your notion that Lying to Nonbelievers is not pervasive and operative within Islam.

It should be relatively easy to pull-up on the Internet, examples of such concepts in operation in our present-day setting, as well as the teachings of various Islamic schools, as pointed-out quite recently here by one of our colleagues.

When you say, as you did - that it is as pervasive as breathing - you are effectively saying it applies to the vast majority of Muslims rather than religious extremists who use such tactics to further their agendas.

I reject that.

Islam is very specific on under what circumstances is can be condoned under and it is by no means broad and sweeping. Like it's sister faiths, Christianity and Judaism, Islam largely forbids lying as a sin. Because sometimes a person's life or family might be put into danger because of their faith, most religions allow some lee way. All three religions were persecuted early on in their history so it's not surprising.

The difference with Islam is that people have decided to take Taqiya and use it to make a case that Muslims are inherently dishonest as a faith - with no other proof then that the faith legitimizes it. They ignore the fact that Islam restricts the conditions under which it can be morally done. The reason I brought up that anti-semitic tract on lying in Judaism was not to change the topic to Jews, but to make a point. People use loopholes to claim a religion is inherently dishonest but ignore the strictures on those loopholes. When it comes to Judaism, we are up front in denouncing it for what it is - a dishonest portrayal of that religions values and we believe the scholars who dissect it as anti-religious propaganda. When it comes to Islam, however, it's the opposite. We denounce the scholars and ignore the many instances the texts prohibiting lying and dishonesty, preferring instead to believe the propoganda.

Making sweeping generalizations about Muslims by digging up a relatively obscure term, Taqiya, is something that the current run of anti-Islam groups push in an attempt to demonize Muslims and create fear.

I accept your notion that Lying to Nonbelievers is pervasive and operative within Judaism; given that this is the first I've heard of that, and that this is not common knowledge, and that we do not see similar easy-to-conjure examples in their daily lives and their schools.

Woah - that is not my notion. Lying is NOT pervasive and operative within Judaism any more than within Christianity or Islam.

And, when all is said and done, you'll be hard-pressed to provide examples of such Permissions to Lie to Nonbelievers within the New Testament, which is one of the more transparent of the foundational philosophies on which this Christian -leaning Secular Republic of ours is based; a state of affairs that makes Islam's Permission-to-Lie all the more alien and distasteful and untrustworthy, by comparison.

You're right - Christianity seems to be far less tolerant of lying than either Judaism or Islam, at least that I can find. But even then - both those religions are very strict in defining under what circumstances it's permissable to lie in and strongly condemn lying.

Lying is forbidden by commandment. Thou shalt not bear false witness. Which is done all the time by non believers and I'm not referring to Muslims. They will accuse "Christians" of killing in the name of Christianity. Or say for instance Germany was a Christian nation. True Christians do not kill. The whole theme of the New Testament is love. Love your neighbor. The difference I see between Christianity and Islam is that Christians are instructed to "love your enemy and pray for those who spitefully use you" If you burn a bible, a true Christian will pray for you. Burn a Koran and...hold on to your head.

 

[Coyote]

Of course not, have you?

No. I'm not making claims about them.



I'm defending nothing.

And I take exception to your thought that there is an anti-muslim bias in the US. What other city in the world would allow a mosque in a building hit by debris from the muslim attack on the World Trade Center? Are you reading what the muslim zealots are doing to Christians in Egypt? Or in Libya? Or Iran? And now in Iraq and Syria and Somalia? Frankly a parsing of words about whether lying is inherent in the muslim faith is of little interest to me compared to the actions perpetrated in the name of that garbage religion.

There is an anti-Muslim bias. Just go to sites like Atlas Shrugs and Islam Watch.

"making claims"? Were you at the bombing of Hiroshima? If not then by your reasoning it didn't happen.

You don't know my reasoning.

Maddrasa's vary widely - it's an Arab word for any type of educational institution - whether secular or religious, and of any religion. So what Maddrasas are you talking about or, do you just assume they are all the same?

And you are defending islamic teaching by what you've written here. Why?

Link to where exactly I'm "defending" Islamic teaching.

Normally we see this from leftists who see Christianity as the enemy and so turn to other types of worship from Buddhism to witchcraft in defiance of Christianity.

What ever you say. Just don't go putting words in my mouth.

Understand this, we were attacked by islam, we have fought islam for the last decade and there are souls being lost as I write this to that false idolatry.

We were attacked by terrorists.

It's common knowledge what's being taught in the madrasses, especially from the house of saud.

Some of them are definately extremist, I don't disagree there.

We defended them from Saddam's tank columns and are attacked in return.

It wasn't quite as simple as that.

I ask again, have you ever been in a mosque

This is the first time you've asked.

Yes.

or in particular a madrasses mosque?

Which madrassas?

If not, it's you who are making claims that are false and you have no way of proving. This is my last word on the matter.

I have made no claims I haven't supported dude.

 

[Peterf]

oh great, another irrational hate-Muslims thread.

As an impartial observer I would say that the thread is about the deeds inspired by Islam not about hating Muslims. What, pray, is 'irrational' about condemning the murder,in Pakistan, of 100 people leaving a Catholic church? Should the fact that it was committed by Islamic fanatics be ignored?

 

[Coyote]

There is an anti-Muslim bias. Just go to sites like Atlas Shrugs and Islam Watch.

Websites like that didn't start popping up because Islam is peaceful. If you go around acting like an asshole, guess what, people will think youre an asshole.

Nope. They popped up for the same reason websites for groups like Stormfront popped up.

 

[Coyote]

oh great, another irrational hate-Muslims thread.

As an impartial observer I would say that the thread is about the deeds inspired by Islam not about hating Muslims. What, pray, is 'irrational' about condemning the murder,in Pakistan, of 100 people leaving a Catholic church? Should the fact that it was committed by Islamic fanatics be ignored?

Nope. Extremists are a serious problem.

Should the fact that Muslims as a whole are being demonized be ignored?

 

[High_Gravity]

If there is this much of an argument about whether Islam is peaceful or not, I think this thread answers itself. If Islam was peaceful this thread would have died after the first page.

 

[BullKurtz]

No. I'm not making claims about them.



I'm defending nothing.



There is an anti-Muslim bias. Just go to sites like Atlas Shrugs and Islam Watch.

"making claims"? Were you at the bombing of Hiroshima? If not then by your reasoning it didn't happen.

You don't know my reasoning.

Maddrasa's vary widely - it's an Arab word for any type of educational institution - whether secular or religious, and of any religion. So what Maddrasas are you talking about or, do you just assume they are all the same?



Link to where exactly I'm "defending" Islamic teaching.



What ever you say. Just don't go putting words in my mouth.



We were attacked by terrorists.



Some of them are definately extremist, I don't disagree there.



It wasn't quite as simple as that.



This is the first time you've asked.

Yes.

or in particular a madrasses mosque?

Which madrassas?

If not, it's you who are making claims that are false and you have no way of proving. This is my last word on the matter.

I have made no claims I haven't supported dude.

The usual smugness from a moderator who just lost his ass in a debate. Actually it was "as simple as that" in bin-Laden's psychotic mind. US (ie Christian) boots on muslim soil....didn't matter we were defending the Saudi oil fields. In fact OBL would probably have preferred they get lit up like Saddam did in Kuwait....daddy issues.

As I just said, I have no further tolerance for a debate on the practices vs. the theories behind 21st century islam. I have no idea why you've been inside a mosque if that's true. If you're a muslim say so and we can cut to the chase. I'm acquainted with several apostate muslims who can no longer tolerate their faith. I've seen the dead bodies, have you? I've heard the broadcasts, have you? I've seen the heads on posts....have you? And don't convolute the issue by claiming these are "terrorist" acts. Terrorism is simply a tactic, not an aberration of faith. All muslims by definition, are now terrorists in one form or another. And understand this; supporting that ideology will not make you the last one beheaded. In fact it may hasten you to the front of the line because converts can not be trusted and traitors are universally despised.

 

[Godboy]

There is an anti-Muslim bias. Just go to sites like Atlas Shrugs and Islam Watch.

Websites like that didn't start popping up because Islam is peaceful. If you go around acting like an asshole, guess what, people will think youre an asshole.

Nope. They popped up for the same reason websites for groups like Stormfront popped up.

Yep, its the EXACT same reason. Black crime rates have made a lot of people unhappy. They irrationally blame race as the problem when they should be blaming culture, but its generally based on the bad reputation the black community has earned.

 

[Roudy]

You need to check your facts. The people murdered in that shopping mall were both Muslim and Christian and possibly some other faiths.

A 9 year old Muslim boy was shot in the hip, his Muslim mother, and 15 yr old sister were forced to recite passages from the Koran, which they could. They were shot anyway, in front of the little boy.

Al Shabab is a pack of rabid dogs who carry out murder for the purpose of destabilizing countries and furthering religous extremism. No one is defending them.

No you need to check your facts. Another total distortion and misrepresentation.

After they shot people randomly, When the attack began, They announced that all Muslims are free to go, however to prove that you are really a Muslim, you need to recite the daily prayers, or tell them the name of Mohammed's mother.

How far will you go in these whitewashing attempts?

"If you want Kenya in peace, it will not happen as long as your boys are in our lands,'' rebel spokesman Ali Mohamud Rage said in a statement posted on an Islamist website.
Shocked witnesses said the gunmen tried to weed out non-Muslims for execution by interrogating people on their religion or asking them to recite the Shahada, the Muslim profession of faith.

Read more: Boy, 4, confronts gunman as Kenyan troops tighten grip on Nairobi shopping mall siege | News.com.au

Those among the terrified hostages at the mall who failed to prove they were Muslims were selected for execution. Al-Shabaab said two Britons were among those doing the killing. They were Liban Adam, 23, and Ahmed Nasir Shirdoon, 24, both from London. Security agencies have refused to confirm their identities but acknowledge that it would be no surprise if UK citizens were involved.

Kenya shopping mall attack: Who are al-Shabaab, the multinational force of terror at the heart of the Nairobi shopping centre massacre? - Africa - World - The Independent

I'm not white washing anything Roudy. I'm pointing out that Muslims were also killed because Al Shabab are extremists.

On NPR they were broadcasting interviews of people who survived the attack and one lady who was a Muslim, had lost 10 relatives. One of them was a child was shot in the hip (he survived) but his mother and 15 year old sister were shot. The excuse given for their execution was that they were not wearing a Hijab.

As I pointed out Al shabab is a pack of rabid dogs. I hope they are shot down on sight for what they've done.

No one is defending them. I just refuse to jump on your Muslim-Hate Bandwagon.

And I refuse the concept of any and all threads pointing out Islamic atrocities to be diverted, and then attacked and flamed as "Muslim hate bandwagons". All you ever do 24/7 is apologize and misrepresent in defense of Islam. We get it.

 

[Roudy]

You need to check your facts. The people murdered in that shopping mall were both Muslim and Christian and possibly some other faiths.

A 9 year old Muslim boy was shot in the hip, his Muslim mother, and 15 yr old sister were forced to recite passages from the Koran, which they could. They were shot anyway, in front of the little boy.

Al Shabab is a pack of rabid dogs who carry out murder for the purpose of destabilizing countries and furthering religous extremism. No one is defending them.

No you need to check your facts. Another total distortion and misrepresentation.

After they shot people randomly, When the attack began, They announced that all Muslims are free to go, however to prove that you are really a Muslim, you need to recite the daily prayers, or tell them the name of Mohammed's mother.

How far will you go in these whitewashing attempts?

"If you want Kenya in peace, it will not happen as long as your boys are in our lands,'' rebel spokesman Ali Mohamud Rage said in a statement posted on an Islamist website.
Shocked witnesses said the gunmen tried to weed out non-Muslims for execution by interrogating people on their religion or asking them to recite the Shahada, the Muslim profession of faith.

Read more: Boy, 4, confronts gunman as Kenyan troops tighten grip on Nairobi shopping mall siege | News.com.au

Those among the terrified hostages at the mall who failed to prove they were Muslims were selected for execution. Al-Shabaab said two Britons were among those doing the killing. They were Liban Adam, 23, and Ahmed Nasir Shirdoon, 24, both from London. Security agencies have refused to confirm their identities but acknowledge that it would be no surprise if UK citizens were involved.

Kenya shopping mall attack: Who are al-Shabaab, the multinational force of terror at the heart of the Nairobi shopping centre massacre? - Africa - World - The Independent

I'm not white washing anything Roudy. I'm pointing out that Muslims were also killed because Al Shabab are extremists.

On NPR they were broadcasting interviews of people who survived the attack and one lady who was a Muslim, had lost 10 relatives. One of them was a child was shot in the hip (he survived) but his mother and 15 year old sister were shot. The excuse given for their execution was that they were not wearing a Hijab.

As I pointed out Al shabab is a pack of rabid dogs. I hope they are shot down on sight for what they've done.

No one is defending them. I just refuse to jump on your Muslim-Hate Bandwagon.

And you need to stop justifying and lying. As I mentioned and later proved, they initially started shooting at everyone and anyone, to gain control of the mall, and then started separating the Muslims from the non Muslims, which were killed. Why do you refuse to admit and omit this obvious fact? If not for an ulterior agenda.

 

[Roudy]

It doesn't take a scholar to see the complete lack of OUTRAGE in the muslim world over this supposed "misinterpretation" of the Koran and what it allows. Quite the opposite, the madrasasas teach any deception to non-muslims is acceptable and adviseable. So when supposed moderates timidly denounce the jihadist nature of modern islam, we Christians shouldn't (and don't) buy it. Muslims not actively and vocally challenging the modern form of islam should be considered side-liners who will quickly change their tune to support open warfare with non-muslim cultures. Discussions about the subltle differences of interpretation of the Koran pale by comparison to the atrocious acts being committed in the name of Muhammad.

You've been to a Madrassa?

Of course not, have you? Have you ever seen the expression on a suicide-bomber's face? I have and it is one of pure bliss. Who taught him that? You are defending concepts no longer followed in the muslim world. And I take exception to your thought that there is an anti-muslim bias in the US. What other city in the world would allow a mosque in a building hit by debris from the muslim attack on the World Trade Center? Are you reading what the muslim zealots are doing to Christians in Egypt? Or in Libya? Or Iran? And now in Iraq and Syria and Somalia? Frankly a parsing of words about whether lying is inherent in the muslim faith is of little interest to me compared to the actions perpetrated in the name of that garbage religion.

Excellent post. Now you're going to be accused on participating in a Muslim hate thread. LOL

 

[Roudy]

oh great, another irrational hate-Muslims thread.

As an impartial observer I would say that the thread is about the deeds inspired by Islam not about hating Muslims. What, pray, is 'irrational' about condemning the murder,in Pakistan, of 100 people leaving a Catholic church? Should the fact that it was committed by Islamic fanatics be ignored?

No, you're not allowed to say anything. We're supposed to take atrocity after atrocity on the chin. Anybody who dares object to this barbarism or criticize Islamists, is immediately called a hater.

Meanwhile, the dead bodies of the innocents pile up.

 

[Roudy]

oh great, another irrational hate-Muslims thread.

As an impartial observer I would say that the thread is about the deeds inspired by Islam not about hating Muslims. What, pray, is 'irrational' about condemning the murder,in Pakistan, of 100 people leaving a Catholic church? Should the fact that it was committed by Islamic fanatics be ignored?

Nope. Extremists are a serious problem.

Should the fact that Muslims as a whole are being demonized be ignored?

Like I said in my initial OP, you have just provided baloney excuse no. 2:

"ah never mind, there are extremists in every religion"

 

[Roudy]

"making claims"? Were you at the bombing of Hiroshima? If not then by your reasoning it didn't happen.

You don't know my reasoning.

Maddrasa's vary widely - it's an Arab word for any type of educational institution - whether secular or religious, and of any religion. So what Maddrasas are you talking about or, do you just assume they are all the same?



Link to where exactly I'm "defending" Islamic teaching.



What ever you say. Just don't go putting words in my mouth.



We were attacked by terrorists.



Some of them are definately extremist, I don't disagree there.



It wasn't quite as simple as that.



This is the first time you've asked.

Yes.



Which madrassas?

If not, it's you who are making claims that are false and you have no way of proving. This is my last word on the matter.

I have made no claims I haven't supported dude.

The usual smugness from a moderator who just lost his ass in a debate. Actually it was "as simple as that" in bin-Laden's psychotic mind. US (ie Christian) boots on muslim soil....didn't matter we were defending the Saudi oil fields. In fact OBL would probably have preferred they get lit up like Saddam did in Kuwait....daddy issues.

As I just said, I have no further tolerance for a debate on the practices vs. the theories behind 21st century islam. I have no idea why you've been inside a mosque if that's true. If you're a muslim say so and we can cut to the chase. I'm acquainted with several apostate muslims who can no longer tolerate their faith. I've seen the dead bodies, have you? I've heard the broadcasts, have you? I've seen the heads on posts....have you? And don't convolute the issue by claiming these are "terrorist" acts. Terrorism is simply a tactic, not an aberration of faith. All muslims by definition, are now terrorists in one form or another. And understand this; supporting that ideology will not make you the last one beheaded. In fact it may hasten you to the front of the line because converts can not be trusted and traitors are universally despised.

Glad to see someone with firsthand experience voice their opinion as to the truth. I too have firsthand experience.

 

[Hoffstra]

No, you're not allowed to say anything. We're supposed to take atrocity after atrocity on the chin. Anybody who dares object to this barbarism or criticize Islamists, is immediately called a hater.

Meanwhile, the dead bodies of the innocents pile up.

strawman.

folks who obsessively hate Muslims, are haters.

these haters are even worse that they try to deflect hatred of Jews onto Muslims, by fanning the flames of anti-Muslim hatred.