rosends
Gold Member
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I'm at the same time interested in your use of the phrase "their God" as if there is more than one, and amused by your incredibly old-fashioned and tired blaming of jews for their own suffering.
Jew hatred
- Thread starter Votto
- Start date
I'm at the same time interested in your use of the phrase "their God" as if there is more than one, and amused by your incredibly old-fashioned and tired blaming of jews for their own suffering.
Votto
Diamond Member
- Oct 31, 2012
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The Biblical text is pretty plain about blessing and cursing. Israel is to pick blessing or cursing based upon their rejection/acceptance of the God they took an oath to follow. Over and over again they have rejected God, as even the OT conceeds.
The question then becomes, is he advocating such persecution?
Votto
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All of this talk about the zionists got me to thinking about the Grand Mufti Amin al-Husseini. In 1920 he was charged with planning an attack on some Jews who were praying at the Western Wall and had a reputation for being a violent and fanatical anit-zionist zealot. The first Palestine High Commissioner, Sir Herbert Samuel arrived in Palestine in 1920. He was a weak adiministrator who was ready to compromise and appease the extremist, nationalistic Arab minority led by Amin. When the existing Mufti of Jerusalem died in 1921, Samuels was influenced by anti-zionist British officers on his staff and pardoned Amin and then appointed him Grand Mufti later on. Amin was also made President of a newly created Supreme Council of Muslims.
The appointment of the young Amin as Mufti was a seminal event. Prior to his rise to power, there were active Arabs supporting cooperative development of Palestine involving Arabs and Jews, but Amin would have none of that, for Amin was devoted to driving the Jews out of Palestine, without compromise, even if it set back the Arabs 1000 years. He was quoted as saying,
"This was and will remain an Arab land. We do not mind you natives of the country, but those alien invaders, the zionists, will be massacred to the last man. We want no progress, no prosperity. Nothing but the sword will decide the fate of this country."
He then began a campaign of teror and intimidation against anyone who opposed his rule and policies. He killed Jews at every oppurtunity, but also elimated Arabs who did not support his campaign of violence.
In 1937 Amin expressed his solidarity with Germany, asking the Nazi Third Reich to oppose the establishment of a Jewish state, stop Jewish immigration to Palestine, and provide arms to the Arab population. Following an assassination attempt on British inspector general of the Palestine police force and the murder by Arab extremists of Jews and moderate Arabs, the Grand Mufti was forced into exile in Syria in 1937.
According to the documentation at the Nuremberg trials, the Nazis helped finance Amin's efforts in the 1936-1939 revolt in Palestine. Then in 1941 Amin travelled to Berlin where he spent the rest of the war as Hitler's special guest. He advocated the extermination of Jews in radio broadcasts back to the Middle East and recruited Balkan Muslims for infamous SS "mountain divisions" that tried to wipe out Jewish communities throuhout the region.
With the collapse of the Third Reich in 1945, Amin travelled to Egypt where he was received as a national hero. After the war, Amin was indicted by Yogoslavia for war crimes, but escaped prosecution. Amin was never tried because the Allies were too afraid of the strom in the Arab world if the hero of Arab nationalism was treated as a war criminal.
Amin was later among the sponsors of the 1948 war against the new state of Isarel. The most interesting part, however, is that Amin was denied entrance back into Jerusalem by other Muslims because he was such a trouble maker.
Amin eventually died in 1974 and never returned to Jerusalem, however, his nephew was later named Yassar Arafat.
And the rest is history. Before the Zionist ever had a country or power to be accused of war crimes, they had already been deemed to be criminals.
The appointment of the young Amin as Mufti was a seminal event. Prior to his rise to power, there were active Arabs supporting cooperative development of Palestine involving Arabs and Jews, but Amin would have none of that, for Amin was devoted to driving the Jews out of Palestine, without compromise, even if it set back the Arabs 1000 years. He was quoted as saying,
"This was and will remain an Arab land. We do not mind you natives of the country, but those alien invaders, the zionists, will be massacred to the last man. We want no progress, no prosperity. Nothing but the sword will decide the fate of this country."
He then began a campaign of teror and intimidation against anyone who opposed his rule and policies. He killed Jews at every oppurtunity, but also elimated Arabs who did not support his campaign of violence.
In 1937 Amin expressed his solidarity with Germany, asking the Nazi Third Reich to oppose the establishment of a Jewish state, stop Jewish immigration to Palestine, and provide arms to the Arab population. Following an assassination attempt on British inspector general of the Palestine police force and the murder by Arab extremists of Jews and moderate Arabs, the Grand Mufti was forced into exile in Syria in 1937.
According to the documentation at the Nuremberg trials, the Nazis helped finance Amin's efforts in the 1936-1939 revolt in Palestine. Then in 1941 Amin travelled to Berlin where he spent the rest of the war as Hitler's special guest. He advocated the extermination of Jews in radio broadcasts back to the Middle East and recruited Balkan Muslims for infamous SS "mountain divisions" that tried to wipe out Jewish communities throuhout the region.
With the collapse of the Third Reich in 1945, Amin travelled to Egypt where he was received as a national hero. After the war, Amin was indicted by Yogoslavia for war crimes, but escaped prosecution. Amin was never tried because the Allies were too afraid of the strom in the Arab world if the hero of Arab nationalism was treated as a war criminal.
Amin was later among the sponsors of the 1948 war against the new state of Isarel. The most interesting part, however, is that Amin was denied entrance back into Jerusalem by other Muslims because he was such a trouble maker.
Amin eventually died in 1974 and never returned to Jerusalem, however, his nephew was later named Yassar Arafat.
And the rest is history. Before the Zionist ever had a country or power to be accused of war crimes, they had already been deemed to be criminals.
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Billo_Really
Litre of the Band
If anti-semitism is "off the charts", then were counting the number of occurances anti-semitism is demonstrated, so to speak. And in that context, people who have valid criticisms of Israel, should not be included in the count, just because someone accuses them of being an anti-semite, for criticizing Israel.
I wouldn't have brought this up, except for the fact that 99% of the responses to Israeli criticism, is to kill the messenger and discredit what they say, because , well, they're anti-semites.
No one should be punished for how they choose to worship.
Billo_Really
Litre of the Band
Wasn't it the Romans who killed him?
rosends
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I think that one could easily document ongoing and widespread anti-semitism worldwideand never mention Israel and it is to this fact that the OP points. The newest example in Hungary makes this case.
If there's only one God, then can rightly be called their God, and as for my idea being old fashioned, so what. It's what Jesus said in the scriptures, it's what the Apostles said in the Scriptures, and it's what the inspired authors of the bble said in the scriptures, making it truth to me.
eots
no fly list
who cares...
rosends
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your initial statement makes no sense. If there is only one god, then to label "their" (that is, to create a distinction between "their" and another) is to promote polytheism, not monotheism.
and as for your old-fashioned excuse for all things violent, it seems that you are saying that you hold everything that Jesus and the apostles said as the truth, and you follow them completely? I bet you I could find all sorts of quotes from the gospels that you conveniently don't think of as truth or don't follow. Do you pray in a closet (matthew) do you hate your father (luke) do you not resist evil (matthew). but take a quote calling jews vipers, or of the church of satan and suddenly this is persuasive? fascinating.
Billo_Really
Litre of the Band
I'm not trying to change the thread topic, I'm simply saying that people who are labeled as anti-semites, just because they criticized Israel, should not be counted along with the real cases of anti-semitism, that make up the numbers going "off the charts". But there is the possibility that they are counted, which may be the reason the numbers are "off the charts". I don't know.
What I do know, is how easy it is to include these people in the count. You see my comments and treat the issue as my "obsessive bone to pick with Israel", not that the Israeli's are doing some very bad things they should be called out on. And it seems no matter how many times I make the distinction that my issues are with Israeli's, the j-word keeps creeping back into the conversation.
If your observation is sincere and you make a lucid point, I'll care about it. Simply because there's not enough of those at this website.
I have a question, if Israel is in violation of over 200 UN resolutions, why is the issue me (when I bring this up) and not the fact that Israel is in violation of over 200 UN resolutions.
Moonglow
Diamond Member
Billo_Really
Litre of the Band
I already have. I've survived 8 years of Catholic school and had so much bible crap shove down my throat, I don't have to go back and read it.
Pilate was a state administer for the Romans. He's the one who gave the green light for the execution. He was born in Scotland and is definately not a jew. In fact, jews around at that time, didn't like him.
As for Jesus, jews testified against him, but to say they're the ones who killed him, is a pretty anti-semitic claim, if you ask me.
Friends
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- Jul 15, 2012
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Initially the Romans persecuted the Jews because they revolted from the Empire in 66 to 73 AD, and 132 to 136. In 313 Emperor Constantine ended that with his Edict of Toleration.
When Christianity became the established religion of the Empire after 380 persecution resumed. Christian persecution was more vigorous because the pagan Romans had not taken their Olympian pantheon seriously enough to worry about alternative religions. After their conversion to Christianity they did take Christianity seriously enough.
However, while other non Christian religions were wiped out entirely Judaism was allowed to survive because the New Testament saints were Jews, and the Jews had written the Old Testament. This was the pattern throughout the Middle Ages and the Renaissance. Although Jews were discriminated against and suffered occasional pogroms other non Christian religions, like Islam, were not tolerated at all.
Persecution of the Jews softened during the eighteenth century Enlightenment, and was ended by Napoleon, although though prejudice remained.
As soon as Jews were allowed to compete intellectually they demonstrated mental aptitude far out of proportion to their numbers. Ironically, persecution of the Jews had bred them genetically for superior intelligence. They had been restricted to mercantile and financial occupations. These required superior intelligence. Jews who could not learn the necessary skills either left the faith, or they did not get married and have children. The pogroms preserved those who were resourceful enough to anticipate them, and to move to other countries and establish themselves.
As Christianity became more tolerant secular antisemitism developed because many Gentiles resented the professional and financial success of the Jews. In Mein Kampf Adolf Hitler made it fairly clear that he was initially sympathetic toward the Jews, and did not begin to hate them until he failed in his efforts to become an artist and an architect.
For the Nazis the Jews were a convenient hate target. To businessmen and aristocrats they could be portrayed as Marxist revolutionaries. To working class Germans they could be portrayed as dishonest businessmen who exploited decent German workers.
The traditional Jewish profession as money lenders did not win friends for the Jews. People do not like to have to borrow money. They do not like to have to pay it back. Because Jews were often administrators of aristocratic estates they were often resented by serfs and renters, and landless farm laborers.
Those on the left were usually sympathetic toward the Jews and Israel until after the Six Day War of 1967. After that war the Israelis seemed to be less like David against the Arab Goliath, than Goliath against the Palestinian David.
In the United States right wing antisemites are governed by racial and ethnic bigotry. Left wing antisemites are governed by hostility to Israel, which is seen as a remnant of Western imperialism.
Other than that, there is little antisemitism in the United States. The religious right is as pro Israel as are American Jews. Support for Israel is not a political issue. Some people simply feel a need to hate. The few people I have known who hated Jews were in this category.
In the Muslim world Jews are hatted because of the success of Israel. Those who hate them in the West are either haters by nature, or they resent them for their academic, and professional success, and their prosperity. Some secular rightists hate Jews because they blame them for liberal movements, but those secular rightists are numerically insignificant.
It is to the credit of the Jews that while they are usually prosperous they are usually sympathetic to those who are not. This explains their support for the Democratic Party.
I am a Christian Zionist who loves Jews, Judaism, and Israel. I am opposed to laws against antisemitic propaganda because it is easy to refute. Nevertheless, hostility toward Jews makes me almost physically ill, and very angry.
When Christianity became the established religion of the Empire after 380 persecution resumed. Christian persecution was more vigorous because the pagan Romans had not taken their Olympian pantheon seriously enough to worry about alternative religions. After their conversion to Christianity they did take Christianity seriously enough.
However, while other non Christian religions were wiped out entirely Judaism was allowed to survive because the New Testament saints were Jews, and the Jews had written the Old Testament. This was the pattern throughout the Middle Ages and the Renaissance. Although Jews were discriminated against and suffered occasional pogroms other non Christian religions, like Islam, were not tolerated at all.
Persecution of the Jews softened during the eighteenth century Enlightenment, and was ended by Napoleon, although though prejudice remained.
As soon as Jews were allowed to compete intellectually they demonstrated mental aptitude far out of proportion to their numbers. Ironically, persecution of the Jews had bred them genetically for superior intelligence. They had been restricted to mercantile and financial occupations. These required superior intelligence. Jews who could not learn the necessary skills either left the faith, or they did not get married and have children. The pogroms preserved those who were resourceful enough to anticipate them, and to move to other countries and establish themselves.
As Christianity became more tolerant secular antisemitism developed because many Gentiles resented the professional and financial success of the Jews. In Mein Kampf Adolf Hitler made it fairly clear that he was initially sympathetic toward the Jews, and did not begin to hate them until he failed in his efforts to become an artist and an architect.
For the Nazis the Jews were a convenient hate target. To businessmen and aristocrats they could be portrayed as Marxist revolutionaries. To working class Germans they could be portrayed as dishonest businessmen who exploited decent German workers.
The traditional Jewish profession as money lenders did not win friends for the Jews. People do not like to have to borrow money. They do not like to have to pay it back. Because Jews were often administrators of aristocratic estates they were often resented by serfs and renters, and landless farm laborers.
Those on the left were usually sympathetic toward the Jews and Israel until after the Six Day War of 1967. After that war the Israelis seemed to be less like David against the Arab Goliath, than Goliath against the Palestinian David.
In the United States right wing antisemites are governed by racial and ethnic bigotry. Left wing antisemites are governed by hostility to Israel, which is seen as a remnant of Western imperialism.
Other than that, there is little antisemitism in the United States. The religious right is as pro Israel as are American Jews. Support for Israel is not a political issue. Some people simply feel a need to hate. The few people I have known who hated Jews were in this category.
In the Muslim world Jews are hatted because of the success of Israel. Those who hate them in the West are either haters by nature, or they resent them for their academic, and professional success, and their prosperity. Some secular rightists hate Jews because they blame them for liberal movements, but those secular rightists are numerically insignificant.
It is to the credit of the Jews that while they are usually prosperous they are usually sympathetic to those who are not. This explains their support for the Democratic Party.
I am a Christian Zionist who loves Jews, Judaism, and Israel. I am opposed to laws against antisemitic propaganda because it is easy to refute. Nevertheless, hostility toward Jews makes me almost physically ill, and very angry.
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Oh, the Jews killed Christ, you say?
Well maybe, but none of the Jews I know and love did that.
They must have been out of town that weekend visiting relatives for the passover season.
But you religious zealots have my permission to beat up any Roman sentorians you meet today.
How that?
Well maybe, but none of the Jews I know and love did that.
They must have been out of town that weekend visiting relatives for the passover season.
But you religious zealots have my permission to beat up any Roman sentorians you meet today.
How that?
Lipush
Gold Member
Should I remind you AGAIN that YOU were the one to bring up Israel/Zionism in the first place to this thread, though the intention was Antisemitism and not Anti-Zionism (which you Pro-Palestinians keep saying that those are very two differerent things, though It seems that EVEN YOU know its crap)?
your posts speak for you. I said that and I will say it again. Zionism has a very strong tigh to Judaism, and the line separating one from being Anti-Zionist to Anti-semite, the way I see it, is terribly thin.
If you dig to the ideals of most Anti-Zionists, you will find anti-semites. Because Zionism says simply that Jews have the right to have a safe homeland in Israel. What is the reason to reject that beautiful ideology, if not because of hatred?
You explain it to me, if you may.
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Jimmy_Jam
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- Sep 29, 2012
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So, you don't have an obsessive bone to pick with Israel?
rosends
Gold Member
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your history, occasionally resonating and often a bit skewed, has in it a few lines worth comment.
First, I find the darwinist approach explaining the survival of a people to be interesting. Jews who couldn't learn certain skills didn't get married and those who couldn't anticipate the occasional pogrom died out. that's a bit...um...reductionist but so be it.
the summary of jewish support for the democratic part is likewise overly simplified.
I was also interested in your generalized statement that "there is little antisemitism in the United States". I guess what one person thinks of as "little," a person who has lived through the threats, graffiti and intolerance in the 20th and 21st centuries doesn't see as "little." Do I see it as less than at other times and places? Sure. But "little"? Sadly, not. On an institutionalized level, certainly less, but on the level of individuals, as rampant as ever.
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