Jesus “tells us to give to Caesar what is Caesar’s and to God what is God’s”

[PostmodernProph]

Yes the state can tell you what is appropriate...ie like not being intoxicated in public! but that is different then letting someone get married, .

agreed.....there is a logical reason for not permitting someone to be intoxicated in public.....there is no logical reason for threatening someone because they don't want to bake someone a cake.....this wouldn't make you look so foolish if you would just admit that this decision does in fact effect people besides the two getting married......

 

[TimothysAlaska]

T

The only people that marriage imposes upon are those wed by it.

and yet we have already seen threats made against bakers and florists for refusing to provide services for same sex marriages......

they own a business and do business with those people but only if it's not for a wedding! So businesses get to pick and choose when to sell to someone is appropriate? When they do business with that person all the time? Look if they never said it was for a gay wedding they would have sold their wares to the people no problem. And from what I read it was because the government stepped in and not the individuals involved so your argument holds no water.

obviously, if they can no longer decide for themselves if it is appropriate then something has been imposed upon them....you may not like the answer but it doesn't change it.....

Personally those places lost business and the people went elsewhere I know the flower shop and the gay couple are still friends. The state government got involved and said what she did was inappropriate hence the fines.the flower lady does regular business with that couple knowing that he was gay but because of a marriage celebration she has an issue and gay marriage is legal in that state so she was immature and wrong and a hypocrite and tries to say it is because of her religious faith.

 

[TimothysAlaska]

Yes the state can tell you what is appropriate...ie like not being intoxicated in public! but that is different then letting someone get married, .

agreed.....there is a logical reason for not permitting someone to be intoxicated in public.....there is no logical reason for threatening someone because they don't want to bake someone a cake.....this wouldn't make you look so foolish if you would just admit that this decision does in fact effect people besides the two getting married......

Let me put it this way....if she did not know that it was a gay marriage would she had sold him the flowers? The business she did with him in the past says yes she would. She turned it into a religious thing by putting her beliefs in another persons life choices. About the baker I do not know the whole story but again it seems the state is pursuing the legal action and not the gay couple in the flower instance so it's a legal issue know that a judge will decide. And if he sides with the flower lady then yes I would be ok with that. But using my reasoning I just do not see the problem when it does not affect how she would worship

 

[PostmodernProph]

T

The only people that marriage imposes upon are those wed by it.

and yet we have already seen threats made against bakers and florists for refusing to provide services for same sex marriages......

they own a business and do business with those people but only if it's not for a wedding! So businesses get to pick and choose when to sell to someone is appropriate? When they do business with that person all the time? Look if they never said it was for a gay wedding they would have sold their wares to the people no problem. And from what I read it was because the government stepped in and not the individuals involved so your argument holds no water.

obviously, if they can no longer decide for themselves if it is appropriate then something has been imposed upon them....you may not like the answer but it doesn't change it.....

Personally those places lost business and the people went elsewhere I know the flower shop and the gay couple are still friends. The state government got involved and said what she did was inappropriate hence the fines.the flower lady does regular business with that couple knowing that he was gay but because of a marriage celebration she has an issue and gay marriage is legal in that state so she was immature and wrong and a hypocrite and tries to say it is because of her religious faith.

apparently although you notice the point you refuse to acknowledge it.....she was not opposed to the existence of these two gay people, she was opposed to the issue of gay marriage......that is why she felt she should be able to have them as customers yet refuse to provide a service to them for their wedding ceremony.....this does not make her a hypocrite.....this make her someone who does not believe in gay marriage......yet the state tells her she may not believe gay marriage is inappropriate, that she can be forced to provide services anyway......this means your claim is obviously incorrect, the institution of gay marriage by the state does indeed effect everyone, not just the gay couple......

 

[PostmodernProph]

She turned it into a religious thing by putting her beliefs in another persons life choices.

and the state, by forcing people who object upon religious ground to act anyway, has forced the beliefs of others upon her......obviously my point is correct......

 

[TimothysAlaska]

She turned it into a religious thing by putting her beliefs in another persons life choices.

and the state, by forcing people who object upon religious ground to act anyway, has forced the beliefs of others upon her......obviously my point is correct......

Who is asking her to believe in gay marriage? Or forcing her to? It's not her that is gay. All she is doing is selling items to people. It is law in that state.... So if you worked at a convienance store and a gay couple comes in that are flaming, they ask you where the Vaseline is because they just got married and are looking to have fun. I suppose you would turn them away, because of your religious views( sorry for the disturbing mental image). Or if thAt same couple were at a furniture store looking for a bed.....kick all the gays out?

 

[TimothysAlaska]

She turned it into a religious thing by putting her beliefs in another persons life choices.

and the state, by forcing people who object upon religious ground to act anyway, has forced the beliefs of others upon her......obviously my point is correct......

Who is asking her to believe in gay marriage? Or forcing her to? It's not her that is gay. All she is doing is selling items to people. It is law in that state.... So if you worked at a convienance store and a gay couple comes in that are flaming, they ask you where the Vaseline is because they just got married and are looking to have fun. I suppose you would turn them away, because of your religious views( sorry for the disturbing mental image). Or if thAt same couple were at a furniture store looking for a bed.....kick all the gays out?

I agree with you in that no religious institution should be forced to hold a gay couples ceremony that would be forcing their views on people but day to day commerce should not be infringed on people

 

[TimothysAlaska]

She turned it into a religious thing by putting her beliefs in another persons life choices.

and the state, by forcing people who object upon religious ground to act anyway, has forced the beliefs of others upon her......obviously my point is correct......

And yet divorce is a sin in the eyes of God. And if you remarry you commit adultery should you have to fill out a form to purchase goods about what a good Christian should be considered offensive in order for her to decide to sell the items to you. God dispises divorce, actually I think it says he hates divorce and this is just one of the many things today's christians give a pass on, and have rallied around gay marriage as the one evil that they need to exterminate.

 

[PostmodernProph]

She turned it into a religious thing by putting her beliefs in another persons life choices.

and the state, by forcing people who object upon religious ground to act anyway, has forced the beliefs of others upon her......obviously my point is correct......

Who is asking her to believe in gay marriage? Or forcing her to? It's not her that is gay. All she is doing is selling items to people. It is law in that state.... So if you worked at a convienance store and a gay couple comes in that are flaming, they ask you where the Vaseline is because they just got married and are looking to have fun. I suppose you would turn them away, because of your religious views( sorry for the disturbing mental image). Or if thAt same couple were at a furniture store looking for a bed.....kick all the gays out?

are they asking me to come to their wedding and administer the Vaseline as part of the ceremony?......quit ignoring the point..we both know what I am talking about but you keep dodging it.......

 

[PostmodernProph]

She turned it into a religious thing by putting her beliefs in another persons life choices.

and the state, by forcing people who object upon religious ground to act anyway, has forced the beliefs of others upon her......obviously my point is correct......

And yet divorce is a sin in the eyes of God. And if you remarry you commit adultery should you have to fill out a form to purchase goods about what a good Christian should be considered offensive in order for her to decide to sell the items to you. God dispises divorce, actually I think it says he hates divorce and this is just one of the many things today's christians give a pass on, and have rallied around gay marriage as the one evil that they need to exterminate.

are you assuming I believe divorce is a good thing?......

if a baker decided to refuse to bake a cake for a man holding a divorce celebration party do you think the baker should be forced by the state to bake the cake?.....what if he wanted "I'm rid of that slut forever!" written on the cake?......can the baker refuse?......

 

[TimothysAlaska]

She turned it into a religious thing by putting her beliefs in another persons life choices.

and the state, by forcing people who object upon religious ground to act anyway, has forced the beliefs of others upon her......obviously my point is correct......

And yet divorce is a sin in the eyes of God. And if you remarry you commit adultery should you have to fill out a form to purchase goods about what a good Christian should be considered offensive in order for her to decide to sell the items to you. God dispises divorce, actually I think it says he hates divorce and this is just one of the many things today's christians give a pass on, and have rallied around gay marriage as the one evil that they need to exterminate.

are you assuming I believe divorce is a good thing?......

if a baker decided to refuse to bake a cake for a man holding a divorce celebration party do you think the baker should be forced by the state to bake the cake?.....what if he wanted "I'm rid of that slut forever!" written on the cake?......can the baker refuse?......

She turned it into a religious thing by putting her beliefs in another persons life choices.

and the state, by forcing people who object upon religious ground to act anyway, has forced the beliefs of others upon her......obviously my point is correct......

Who is asking her to believe in gay marriage? Or forcing her to? It's not her that is gay. All she is doing is selling items to people. It is law in that state.... So if you worked at a convienance store and a gay couple comes in that are flaming, they ask you where the Vaseline is because they just got married and are looking to have fun. I suppose you would turn them away, because of your religious views( sorry for the disturbing mental image). Or if thAt same couple were at a furniture store looking for a bed.....kick all the gays out?

are they asking me to come to their wedding and administer the Vaseline as part of the ceremony?......quit ignoring the point..we both know what I am talking about but you keep dodging it.......

No,I get your point that forcing her to sell her wares for something she deems abominable is an infringement of her right to religious freedom. Is that your point?

And thanks in advance for not resorting to negative responses, sometimes on this forum people resort to insults instead of friendly banter! :-D

I do finally understand. But my point she sells the wares anyway to people and I am sure she has sold her wares to other marriage ceremonies that were not christian, I mean if the evidence shows that she turns a religious blind eye to other things which can be construed as her supporting another religion but she sells them anyway. Does she have a case if she suddenly decides that she is not going to sell her wares in this instance? How can she claim it is on only religious belief?

Personally I do not care if gays can buy flowers at her store for a marriage or not. But your point is taken and I understand that now. But my point still stands that since her store is not a religious institution how can she pick and choose who to sell to when her religious convictions tell her that by selling her wares she is supporting something that is lawful in that state yet she may have sold wares to other religions that should have her religious convictions been against as well. I know may, is a pretty big "if" but she seems to have been in Business a long time so I am sure she has had to deal with other religions and other instances like this.

I don't know the answer, but I can set what I know about Christianity is that you should love thy neighbor and pray for them even if they are not Christian like you. I mean Jesus hung out with the poor and criminals he did not hang out with only saintly people. He administered to them, and taught repentance salvation and redemption and Not to turn your back on people that may have gone astray. According to him. Something to think about but your point is taken

 

[Agit8r]

T

The only people that marriage imposes upon are those wed by it.

and yet we have already seen threats made against bakers and florists for refusing to provide services for same sex marriages......

they own a business and do business with those people but only if it's not for a wedding! So businesses get to pick and choose when to sell to someone is appropriate? When they do business with that person all the time? Look if they never said it was for a gay wedding they would have sold their wares to the people no problem. And from what I read it was because the government stepped in and not the individuals involved so your argument holds no water.

Yes, surely they still provide service for divorcees who get remarried, etc, without finding the need to judge others (as Jesus forbade)

 

[TimothysAlaska]

T

The only people that marriage imposes upon are those wed by it.

and yet we have already seen threats made against bakers and florists for refusing to provide services for same sex marriages......

they own a business and do business with those people but only if it's not for a wedding! So businesses get to pick and choose when to sell to someone is appropriate? When they do business with that person all the time? Look if they never said it was for a gay wedding they would have sold their wares to the people no problem. And from what I read it was because the government stepped in and not the individuals involved so your argument holds no water.

Yes, surely they still provide service for divorcees who get remarried, etc, without finding the need to judge others (as Jesus forbade)

At least somebody gets my point, and not accusing me of warping scripture to serve a dubious purpose. Yes as I said picking and choosing what Old Testament verse and denying the fact that they do it drives me crazy! I think most of them say they are Christians but never really read the book or analyzed it and understood it. That's the reason why i do not go to church...what's the point when everything you need is in the book....and don't get me started on helping the poor.......they do not understand that in Jesus's time the poor were poor. No safety nets no welfare no health care and no upward mobility. I think if Jesus were to come back now he would admonish the poor in the United states for wasting the oportunities they were given....just my two cents...lol

 

[PratchettFan]

T

The only people that marriage imposes upon are those wed by it.

and yet we have already seen threats made against bakers and florists for refusing to provide services for same sex marriages......

they own a business and do business with those people but only if it's not for a wedding! So businesses get to pick and choose when to sell to someone is appropriate? When they do business with that person all the time? Look if they never said it was for a gay wedding they would have sold their wares to the people no problem. And from what I read it was because the government stepped in and not the individuals involved so your argument holds no water.

Yes, surely they still provide service for divorcees who get remarried, etc, without finding the need to judge others (as Jesus forbade)

At least somebody gets my point, and not accusing me of warping scripture to serve a dubious purpose. Yes as I said picking and choosing what Old Testament verse and denying the fact that they do it drives me crazy! I think most of them say they are Christians but never really read the book or analyzed it and understood it. That's the reason why i do not go to church...what's the point when everything you need is in the book....and don't get me started on helping the poor.......they do not understand that in Jesus's time the poor were poor. No safety nets no welfare no health care and no upward mobility. I think if Jesus were to come back now he would admonish the poor in the United states for wasting the oportunities they were given....just my two cents...lol

I really doesn't matter whether this verse or that is relevant. This is not a religious issue, it is a purely secular one. If someone is religiously opposed to SSM, no one is saying they have to be in one. There are people who claim Catholics aren't real Christians, but we don't ban the Catholic church as a result nor do we require those people to attend mass.

As to PA laws, that will work itself out in the courts - as it should. It is possible it will not work itself out to their satisfaction. But to argue that an entire segment of our population should be denied the rights the rest of us enjoy because there is a possibility some others might be inconvenienced is absurd.

 

[PostmodernProph]

She turned it into a religious thing by putting her beliefs in another persons life choices.

and the state, by forcing people who object upon religious ground to act anyway, has forced the beliefs of others upon her......obviously my point is correct......

And yet divorce is a sin in the eyes of God. And if you remarry you commit adultery should you have to fill out a form to purchase goods about what a good Christian should be considered offensive in order for her to decide to sell the items to you. God dispises divorce, actually I think it says he hates divorce and this is just one of the many things today's christians give a pass on, and have rallied around gay marriage as the one evil that they need to exterminate.

are you assuming I believe divorce is a good thing?......

if a baker decided to refuse to bake a cake for a man holding a divorce celebration party do you think the baker should be forced by the state to bake the cake?.....what if he wanted "I'm rid of that slut forever!" written on the cake?......can the baker refuse?......

She turned it into a religious thing by putting her beliefs in another persons life choices.

and the state, by forcing people who object upon religious ground to act anyway, has forced the beliefs of others upon her......obviously my point is correct......

Who is asking her to believe in gay marriage? Or forcing her to? It's not her that is gay. All she is doing is selling items to people. It is law in that state.... So if you worked at a convienance store and a gay couple comes in that are flaming, they ask you where the Vaseline is because they just got married and are looking to have fun. I suppose you would turn them away, because of your religious views( sorry for the disturbing mental image). Or if thAt same couple were at a furniture store looking for a bed.....kick all the gays out?

are they asking me to come to their wedding and administer the Vaseline as part of the ceremony?......quit ignoring the point..we both know what I am talking about but you keep dodging it.......

No,I get your point that forcing her to sell her wares for something she deems abominable is an infringement of her right to religious freedom. Is that your point?

no....my point is that forcing her to do something is an impact upon her, despite the fact you claimed permitting same sex marriage does not have an impact on anyone except the two people getting married.....

 

[PostmodernProph]

Does she have a case if she suddenly decides that she is not going to sell her wares in this instance? How can she claim it is on only religious belief?

but this in fact underscores that it is because of her religious belief......what is different between selling a gay couple a cake or selling a gay couple a wedding cake.....obviously, the wedding.......which she objects to.......

 

[PratchettFan]

She turned it into a religious thing by putting her beliefs in another persons life choices.

and the state, by forcing people who object upon religious ground to act anyway, has forced the beliefs of others upon her......obviously my point is correct......

And yet divorce is a sin in the eyes of God. And if you remarry you commit adultery should you have to fill out a form to purchase goods about what a good Christian should be considered offensive in order for her to decide to sell the items to you. God dispises divorce, actually I think it says he hates divorce and this is just one of the many things today's christians give a pass on, and have rallied around gay marriage as the one evil that they need to exterminate.

are you assuming I believe divorce is a good thing?......

if a baker decided to refuse to bake a cake for a man holding a divorce celebration party do you think the baker should be forced by the state to bake the cake?.....what if he wanted "I'm rid of that slut forever!" written on the cake?......can the baker refuse?......

She turned it into a religious thing by putting her beliefs in another persons life choices.

and the state, by forcing people who object upon religious ground to act anyway, has forced the beliefs of others upon her......obviously my point is correct......

Who is asking her to believe in gay marriage? Or forcing her to? It's not her that is gay. All she is doing is selling items to people. It is law in that state.... So if you worked at a convienance store and a gay couple comes in that are flaming, they ask you where the Vaseline is because they just got married and are looking to have fun. I suppose you would turn them away, because of your religious views( sorry for the disturbing mental image). Or if thAt same couple were at a furniture store looking for a bed.....kick all the gays out?

are they asking me to come to their wedding and administer the Vaseline as part of the ceremony?......quit ignoring the point..we both know what I am talking about but you keep dodging it.......

No,I get your point that forcing her to sell her wares for something she deems abominable is an infringement of her right to religious freedom. Is that your point?

no....my point is that forcing her to do something is an impact upon her, despite the fact you claimed permitting same sex marriage does not have an impact on anyone except the two people getting married.....

Permitting SSM does not force her to do anything. Public Accommodation laws do that. Two entirely different things.

 

[PostmodernProph]

Permitting SSM does not force her to do anything. Public Accommodation laws do that. Two entirely different things.

I'm sorry, did you really mean to dodge the issue?.....

 

[PratchettFan]

Permitting SSM does not force her to do anything. Public Accommodation laws do that. Two entirely different things.

I'm sorry, did you really mean to dodge the issue?.....

Not dodging at all. If you consider a PA law to be unfair, then you should address the PA law. But that has absolutely nothing to do with whether US citizens are entitled to equal protection under the law.

 

[PostmodernProph]

Permitting SSM does not force her to do anything. Public Accommodation laws do that. Two entirely different things.

I'm sorry, did you really mean to dodge the issue?.....

Not dodging at all. If you consider a PA law to be unfair, then you should address the PA law. But that has absolutely nothing to do with whether US citizens are entitled to equal protection under the law.

and that has nothing to do with whether laws authorizing SSM force those not getting married to do anything......as pointed out, in the case of both the florist and the baker, the law authorizing SSM did in fact require them to do something.....thus, the claim that it didn't falls short of truth.....