What's new
US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Jesus means Justice, by any other name

emilynghiem

Constitutionalist / Universalist
Gold Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 21, 2010
Messages
23,243
Reaction score
3,888
Points
290
Location
National Freedmen's Town District
I argue that the meaning of Christ Jesus as Restorative Justice is a universal process that applies to all people, whether religious or not. You don't have to agree on Biblical terms to use in order for the process of Peace and Justice to work the same way: by Forgiveness and healing to restore healthy mind body and relations.
 

Attachments

  • Screenshot_20210726-162145_Chrome.jpg
    Screenshot_20210726-162145_Chrome.jpg
    129.8 KB · Views: 5
OP
emilynghiem

emilynghiem

Constitutionalist / Universalist
Gold Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 21, 2010
Messages
23,243
Reaction score
3,888
Points
290
Location
National Freedmen's Town District
Regardless of theist or nontheist beliefs, the factor of Forgiveness is what facilitates the path to peace, recovery and restoration of health for either offenders or victims of abuse injustice or oppression. And Unforgiveness is what blocks corrections and recovery and perpetuates suffering and retribution. One path leads to new life and peace by Restorative Justice and healing to prevent future abuses. The other path leads to death destruction war and endless suffering or hell by retributive justice and ill will. Whether or not you call the process of Justice and Peace by the religious names of Jesus and the Holy Spirit, both Jew and Gentile, believers or secular nontheists, experience the same stages of overcoming injustice by forgivess and resolution to reach lasting peace. Justice by any other name doesn't change the fact that we all get back the justice we give: if we live by retributive justice by judging and punishing others we get that in return; if we live by Restorative Justice we get that in return. Jesus as Justice is a double edged sword. Whatever name you use, the laws of justice or karma work the same way. Faith in Christ Jesus represents breaking the cycle of retribution so we can all receive Restoration of Justice and Peace to heal relations and humanity as a whole.
 

Damaged Eagle

Angels have fallen
Gold Supporting Member
Joined
Jul 28, 2015
Messages
17,506
Reaction score
24,268
Points
2,445
Location
Inside a window that leads to your conscience
1627335385045.png


Sorry. I'm working on being honorable in another thread as a means towards restorative justice.

*****SMILE*****


:)
 

BasicHumanUnit

Diamond Member
Joined
Jun 1, 2013
Messages
17,444
Reaction score
12,131
Points
1,405
Location
Everywhere needed
Then again, the entire Christianity thingy could have it all wrong.

I can give you thousands of bits of evidence that if there is a God, it is an evil entity entertained by the suffering of feeling creatures.
So, God had to sacrifice his only son and allow all that horrible abuse....to "save" mankind ?? A "God" couldn't do any better than that ?

Question: If he knew (and he should have) that man would be that corrupt, why do it anyway? For fun maybe?

Would you put your little children in a candy store then as you're leaving out the door, warn them that if they touch any of the candy you will throw them, and every offspring they ever conceive as well, off the nearest building? And follow through? (The Tree of Knowledge, Adam and Eve)

That's downright mean.

Other than your "beliefs", and a book written by man, what have you got? Correct. Nothing.

That said, everyone is free to believe anything that makes them feel good. Some people believe in Unicorns. Some worship Satan. Who's wrong? Got proof?
 
Last edited:

Meriweather

Not all who wander are lost
Joined
Oct 21, 2014
Messages
8,375
Reaction score
1,274
Points
165
So, God had to sacrifice his only son and allow all that horrible abuse....to "save" mankind ?? A "God" couldn't do any better than that ?
I invite you to take a closer look at Jesus' life. He began proclaiming, "Sins are forgiven...Repentance for the forgiveness of sins..." and almost immediately got into trouble with the rich and powerful of his own time. Temple revenues could be hurt by this message! This man had to be stopped! Their authority was not to be dismissed. So they told Jesus to shut up. Or else.

Jesus said he would willingly lay down his life rather than stop telling the people that sins are forgiven. The authorities response? "So be it." They had him killed, but his message spread and remains to this day. Sins are forgiven.
 
OP
emilynghiem

emilynghiem

Constitutionalist / Universalist
Gold Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 21, 2010
Messages
23,243
Reaction score
3,888
Points
290
Location
National Freedmen's Town District
Then again, the entire Christianity thingy could have it all wrong.

I can give you thousands of bits of evidence that if there is a God, it is an evil entity entertained by the suffering of feeling creatures.
So, God had to sacrifice his only son and allow all that horrible abuse....to "save" mankind ?? A "God" couldn't do any better than that ?

Question: If he knew (and he should have) that man would be that corrupt, why do it anyway? For fun maybe?

Would you put your little children in a candy store then as you're leaving out the door, warn them that if they touch any of the candy you will throw them, and every offspring they ever conceive as well, off the nearest building? And follow through? (The Tree of Knowledge, Adam and Eve)

That's downright mean.

Other than your "beliefs", and a book written by man, what have you got? Correct. Nothing.

That said, everyone is free to believe anything that makes them feel good. Some people believe in Unicorns. Some worship Satan. Who's wrong? Got proof?
Hi BasicHumanUnit Thanks for your reply, and I hope you can appreciate
the premise that the Bible and symbolism of Jesus is NOT a necessary condition.
So you don't even have to argue any of this which is not a requirement to believe in.

However, since you asked
1. The oversimplified way I can explain the meaning behind "God sending Jesus to die to bring redemption"
is comparing the process of "establishing Justice" to
the process of downloading a program into a computer system corrupted with Virus bugs.

The system cannot debug itself, if all the files are corrupted and will merely reinfect and replicate the bug.

So in order for the program to find and fix these bugs, it must first be DOWNLOADED into the infected system,
then that system is KILLED and REBOOTED. After Rebooting, the anti virus program
can infiltrate through all the operating systems and files, and clean up the bugs and prevent more such infections.

So if Jesus represents Justice on a higher collective level,
this "perfect" universal justice gets EMBODIED into the physical world and psychological conscience
of HUMANITY that is otherwise selfishly flawed and biased toward self interests and cannot achieve "equal justice" for everyone.

Then the "killing off" or sacrifice of justice, in being "divinely forgiven" is not paid back by retribution as human justice calls for.
Instead, the positive forces of this HIGHER "Restorative Justice" corrects, cleans up and HEALS the causes of injustice
or the bugs in the human system, corrupting society and institutions by human greed and selfish ego that otherwise lead to self destruction.

The idea of "resurrection" means RESTORING the pure justice AFTER injustice.
Bringing back Justice after the spirit of justice and peace is KILLED by injustice and war.

This can only occur by "higher" forgiveness, where human ideas of justice focus on punishment
and retribution, which again leads to "vicious cycles" of war and tribal conflict to punish each other as we see in politics.

Faith in RESTORATIVE JUSTICE means forgiving the past and healing relations
so both sides of conflicts or injustice WORK TOGETHER to build better solutions and prevent abuse/injustice in the future.

That takes a lot more faith than normal people usually have.
You can call this mythical, but others credit "God and Jesus" for this higher faith and ability to forgive and heal "by grace alone."

2. As for real life proof of such Restorative Justice healing,
there are both personal testimonies and medical studies on healing done through forgiveness/restorative therapy.

www.ariseandshine.org
www.christianhealingmin.org
www.spiritual-healing.us/about.html

Most people cannot fully grasp this level of healing unless they or a friend they know is reliable
have experienced spiritual healing and can see it for themselves how the process works.

If you are looking at this from the outside, for the first time, it may not seem real or make sense.
That is natural.

All the people, including doctors, who changed their minds about spiritual healing
at first thought it had to be mythical or fraud. But after they saw proof and even did
their own studies and observations, that is what changed their minds.

Dr. Scott Peck wrote his book "Glimpses of the Devil" after he totally changed
his mind after observing two patients treated for incureable Schizophrenia by these methods.
Dr. Francis MacNutt not only found out spiritual healing wasn't "Dark Age" myth,
but he started a nonprofit that has successfully helped and trained people in spiritual healing
as a natural process that works with science and medicine.
Dr. Phillip Goldfedder is a Jewish Neurosurgeon who changed fields and went into
spiritual healing full time after he saw proof it worked better than surgery.

I recommend replicating the medical studies by applying healing to
both shorter term conditions that can be documented faster, such as
bulimia, anorexia and cutting disorders, as well as more serious conditions
such as pedophilia or other criminal sickness that require safe detention
and longterm treatment to prevent endangering more people.

The biggest leap that nontheists may have to make is if medical studies
can prove that ONLY "prayers in Christ Jesus Authority" can overcome
the serious Demonic and Satanic cult oppression, addictions and voices.
And nothing else works to cure those serious cases but Christian deliverance methods.

And the biggest leap that Christians may have to make is
accepting the fact that just because people receive this spiritual
healing in Christ Jesus, that DOESN'T mean everyone will
"convert" to Christianity. Many either stay secular
and in one case that Dr. Peck observed, the patient he helped
lost interest in religion and went into medical science.

Buddhists and Muslims may keep with their native affiliations
and just add the understanding of Jesus and forgiveness to what
they already teach and practice.

But in general, it COULD be proven through statistics
that people who report degrees of
FORGIVENESS of past issues correlate proportionally with success in healing, recovery and reconciliation
while
UNFORGIVENESS correlates with failure to resolve or heal of ill conditions in mind, body or relations with others

Many studies on forgiveness have already been done.
I would like to see more focus on applying these methods
to other physical, mental and criminal illness to help more
people and save more lives from disease and destruction.
 
Last edited:

justinacolmena

Gold Member
Joined
Oct 9, 2017
Messages
8,860
Reaction score
2,739
Points
210
Location
alaska, usa
I argue that the meaning of Christ Jesus as Restorative Justice is a universal process that applies to all people, whether religious or not.
The pastor who proclaims sins forgiven, while allowing the evil judgments of the wicked against the righteous in court to stand as law, is a liar. The pastor who refuses to forgive sins at all is worse shape yet because the Bible says that man who hates his brother without a cause is murderer.
 

SweetSue92

Platinum Member
Joined
Jul 18, 2018
Messages
13,087
Reaction score
5,925
Points
400
Location
USA
Hi BasicHumanUnit Thanks for your reply, and I hope you can appreciate
the premise that the Bible and symbolism of Jesus is NOT a necessary condition.
So you don't even have to argue any of this which is not a requirement to believe in.

However, since you asked
1. The oversimplified way I can explain the meaning behind "God sending Jesus to die to bring redemption"
is comparing the process of "establishing Justice" to
the process of downloading a program into a computer system corrupted with Virus bugs.

The system cannot debug itself, if all the files are corrupted and will merely reinfect and replicate the bug.

So in order for the program to find and fix these bugs, it must first be DOWNLOADED into the infected system,
then that system is KILLED and REBOOTED. After Rebooting, the anti virus program
can infiltrate through all the operating systems and files, and clean up the bugs and prevent more such infections.

So if Jesus represents Justice on a higher collective level,
this "perfect" universal justice gets EMBODIED into the physical world and psychological conscience
of HUMANITY that is otherwise selfishly flawed and biased toward self interests and cannot achieve "equal justice" for everyone.

Then the "killing off" or sacrifice of justice, in being "divinely forgiven" is not paid back by retribution as human justice calls for.
Instead, the positive forces of this HIGHER "Restorative Justice" corrects, cleans up and HEALS the causes of injustice
or the bugs in the human system, corrupting society and institutions by human greed and selfish ego that otherwise lead to self destruction.

The idea of "resurrection" means RESTORING the pure justice AFTER injustice.
Bringing back Justice after the spirit of justice and peace is KILLED by injustice and war.

This can only occur by "higher" forgiveness, where human ideas of justice focus on punishment
and retribution, which again leads to "vicious cycles" of war and tribal conflict to punish each other as we see in politics.

Faith in RESTORATIVE JUSTICE means forgiving the past and healing relations
so both sides of conflicts or injustice WORK TOGETHER to build better solutions and prevent abuse/injustice in the future.

That takes a lot more faith than normal people usually have.
You can call this mythical, but others credit "God and Jesus" for this higher faith and ability to forgive and heal "by grace alone."

2. As for real life proof of such Restorative Justice healing,
there are both personal testimonies and medical studies on healing done through forgiveness/restorative therapy.

www.ariseandshine.org
www.christianhealingmin.org
www.spiritual-healing.us/about.html

Most people cannot fully grasp this level of healing unless they or a friend they know is reliable
have experienced spiritual healing and can see it for themselves how the process works.

If you are looking at this from the outside, for the first time, it may not seem real or make sense.
That is natural.

All the people, including doctors, who changed their minds about spiritual healing
at first thought it had to be mythical or fraud. But after they saw proof and even did
their own studies and observations, that is what changed their minds.

Dr. Scott Peck wrote his book "Glimpses of the Devil" after he totally changed
his mind after observing two patients treated for incureable Schizophrenia by these methods.
Dr. Francis MacNutt not only found out spiritual healing wasn't "Dark Age" myth,
but he started a nonprofit that has successfully helped and trained people in spiritual healing
as a natural process that works with science and medicine.
Dr. Phillip Goldfedder is a Jewish Neurosurgeon who changed fields and went into
spiritual healing full time after he saw proof it worked better than surgery.

I recommend replicating the medical studies by applying healing to
both shorter term conditions that can be documented faster, such as
bulimia, anorexia and cutting disorders, as well as more serious conditions
such as pedophilia or other criminal sickness that require safe detention
and longterm treatment to prevent endangering more people.

The biggest leap that nontheists may have to make is if medical studies
can prove that ONLY "prayers in Christ Jesus Authority" can overcome
the serious Demonic and Satanic cult oppression, addictions and voices.
And nothing else works to cure those serious cases but Christian deliverance methods.

And the biggest leap that Christians may have to make is
accepting the fact that just because people receive this spiritual
healing in Christ Jesus, that DOESN'T mean everyone will
"convert" to Christianity. Many either stay secular
and in one case that Dr. Peck observed, the patient he helped
lost interest in religion and went into medical science.

Buddhists and Muslims may keep with their native affiliations
and just add the understanding of Jesus and forgiveness to what
they already teach and practice.

But in general, it COULD be proven through statistics
that people who report degrees of
FORGIVENESS of past issues correlate proportionally with success in healing, recovery and reconciliation
while
UNFORGIVENESS correlates with failure to resolve or heal of ill conditions in mind, body or relations with others

Many studies on forgiveness have already been done.
I would like to see more focus on applying these methods
to other physical, mental and criminal illness to help more
people and save more lives from disease and destruction.

This is nothing new actually
 

Colin norris

Platinum Member
Joined
Apr 25, 2021
Messages
4,820
Reaction score
1,993
Points
893
I invite you to take a closer look at Jesus' life. He began proclaiming, "Sins are forgiven...Repentance for the forgiveness of sins..." and almost immediately got into trouble with the rich and powerful of his own time. Temple revenues could be hurt by this message! This man had to be stopped! Their authority was not to be dismissed. So they told Jesus to shut up. Or else.

Jesus said he would willingly lay down his life rather than stop telling the people that sins are forgiven. The authorities response? "So be it." They had him killed, but his message spread and remains to this day. Sins are forgiven.

The only sad part about his death was that it wasn't 30 years earlier. Imagine the benefits of not having that idiot destroy whole civilisations for the belief in a ghost.

Sins ar e not forgiven because they don't exust. Who determines what a sin is? How does anyone know it is forgiven? Do they get a text, an email?
It's just pure mealy mouthed religious clap trap.
 

bear513

Diamond Member
Joined
Apr 21, 2012
Messages
66,426
Reaction score
13,906
Points
2,180
The only sad part about his death was that it wasn't 30 years earlier. Imagine the benefits of not having that idiot destroy whole civilisations for the belief in a ghost.

Sins ar e not forgiven because they don't exust. Who determines what a sin is? How does anyone know it is forgiven? Do they get a text, an email?
It's just pure mealy mouthed religious clap trap.

^^^^
A drunk atheist now that's funny
 

bear513

Diamond Member
Joined
Apr 21, 2012
Messages
66,426
Reaction score
13,906
Points
2,180
You're out of ammo big mouth.
The atheist doesn't remember what he wrote?


Sins ar e not forgiven because they don't exust. Who determines what a sin is? How does anyone know it is forgiven? Do they get a text, an email?
It's just pure mealy mouthed religious clap trap.
 

Colin norris

Platinum Member
Joined
Apr 25, 2021
Messages
4,820
Reaction score
1,993
Points
893
The atheist doesn't remember what he wrote?


Sins ar e not forgiven because they don't exust. Who determines what a sin is? How does anyone know it is forgiven? Do they get a text, an email?
It's just pure mealy mouthed religious clap trap.
That's probably better than spreading lies about something that never existed.
Get you proof of God son and put it here.
I know you can't and I will ask you for it until you finally leave this debate.

Like all godbotherers, You are so certain until challenged, then duck and weave offering pathetic excuses.
You are a fraudulent charlatan.
 

bear513

Diamond Member
Joined
Apr 21, 2012
Messages
66,426
Reaction score
13,906
Points
2,180
That's probably better than spreading lies about something that never existed.
Get you proof of God son and put it here.
I know you can't and I will ask you for it until you finally leave this debate.

Like all godbotherers, You are so certain until challenged, then duck and weave offering pathetic excuses.
You are a fraudulent charlatan.
That's probably better than spreading lies about something that never existed.
Get you proof of God son and put it here.
I know you can't and I will ask you for it until you finally leave this debate.

Like all godbotherers, You are so certain until challenged, then duck and weave offering pathetic excuses.
You are a fraudulent charlatan.


So 2.4 billion people in this world is wrong?

Sounds narcissist to me
 

Colin norris

Platinum Member
Joined
Apr 25, 2021
Messages
4,820
Reaction score
1,993
Points
893
So 2.4 billion people in this world is wrong?

Sounds narcissist to me

I never said that. You did.
I will say that not one of them has anymore evidence than you. None.
It doesn't matter how many believe it. If there's no evidence, it doesn't exist. You and themare all delusional.
 

bear513

Diamond Member
Joined
Apr 21, 2012
Messages
66,426
Reaction score
13,906
Points
2,180
I never said that. You did.
I will say that not one of them has anymore evidence than you. None.
It doesn't matter how many believe it. If there's no evidence, it doesn't exist. You and themare all delusional.
I gave you the evidence
 

Colin norris

Platinum Member
Joined
Apr 25, 2021
Messages
4,820
Reaction score
1,993
Points
893
I gave you the evidence

The only thing you have provided is your complete denial you have any evidence.
I know you can't provide any so stop the silly procrastination. Admit it. Faith does not equate to fact.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. You've offered nothing.
 

bear513

Diamond Member
Joined
Apr 21, 2012
Messages
66,426
Reaction score
13,906
Points
2,180
The only thing you have provided is your complete denial you have any evidence.
I know you can't provide any so stop the silly procrastination. Admit it. Faith does not equate to fact.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. You've offered nothing.
Your eyes
 
OP
emilynghiem

emilynghiem

Constitutionalist / Universalist
Gold Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 21, 2010
Messages
23,243
Reaction score
3,888
Points
290
Location
National Freedmen's Town District
The pastor who proclaims sins forgiven, while allowing the evil judgments of the wicked against the righteous in court to stand as law, is a liar. The pastor who refuses to forgive sins at all is worse shape yet because the Bible says that man who hates his brother without a cause is murderer.
Pastors like any other people can only control who they agree to forgive.

There is a difference between BELIEVING that God forgives and "declaring or dictating" which isn't how forgiveness works.

What Pastors can teach from the Bible is Matthew 6:14-15

If you forgive, you will be forgiven.
If you do not forgive, neither will you be forgiven.

Again nobody can dictate for anyone else.
 

Colin norris

Platinum Member
Joined
Apr 25, 2021
Messages
4,820
Reaction score
1,993
Points
893
Pastors like any other people can only control who they agree to forgive.

There is a difference between BELIEVING that God forgives and "declaring or dictating" which isn't how forgiveness works.

What Pastors can teach from the Bible is Matthew 6:14-15

If you forgive, you will be forgiven.
If you do not forgive, neither will you be forgiven.

Again nobody can dictate for anyone else.

That's like saying you'll never know God until you fully commit to him.
What a load of rubbish.
 

USMB Server Goals

Total amount
$166.00
Goal
$350.00

New Topics

Most reactions - Past 7 days

Forum List

Top