Israelis, Palestinians Retreating From Hardline Stances

[NATO AIR]

some good news for once

http://www.christiansciencemonitor.com/2004/1214/p01s03-wome.html

Israelis and Palestinians each indicate retreat from hard-liners

By Ben Lynfield | Correspondent of The Christian Science Monitor

JERUSALEM – One month after Yasser Arafat's death, realignments on both sides of the Palestinian-Israeli divide are raising fragile hopes for a mutual retreat from four years of fighting.
The changes, which are being shadowed by renewed violence, include efforts by Prime Minister Ariel Sharon to forge a coalition with the Labor Party in Israel for pushing through his Gaza disengagement plan, and, in the occupied territories, the likely ascendancy of moderate Palestinian Liberation Organization chairman Mahmoud Abbas and a drop in support for militant Hamas.

"Sharon wants to take a breather and the Palestinians want to take a breather so they will head to negotiations," says Khader Abu Abarra, an analyst based in Beit Jala in the West Bank. "The two sides have exhaustion in common."

He says the fatigue and leadership changes will be enough for a resumption of talks and a period of calm of up to two years, although the two sides, he predicts, will prove unable to tackle the core issues of the conflict.

Mr. Sharon refused to negotiate with Mr. Arafat, alleging he was involved in terrorism. But Sharon's approach toward the Palestinians can be expected to largely resemble that of the moderate Labor Party, with which he is currently trying to form a coalition, says Hebrew University political scientist Menachem Hofnung. "If the Palestinian side comes forward, I believe Sharon can be a partner in a revised peace process, though how fast and how far it will go, I am not sure."

"Sharon understands there will be a Palestinian state and that Israel cannot hold the territories forever. His considerations include preserving Israel's Jewish majority and good relations with the US," he adds.

The hope that peace talks will resume soon is widely shared by public opinion on both sides. A joint poll released last week by the Hebrew University's Truman Institute and the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research showed 76 percent of Israelis and 83 percent of Palestinians expect negotiations to resume compared with 63 percent of Israelis and 72 percent of Palestinians surveyed in June.

But hope for change comes against the backdrop of a fresh escalation in the Gaza Strip, which is taking a toll on civilians and fueling doubts about whether a reconciliation can get off the ground.

Monday, Israeli helicopters fired missiles at targets in Gaza City, without causing casualties, in an initial response to the killing of five soldiers and wounding of five others at a Gaza-Egypt border position Sunday night when Hamas and the Fatah Hawks blew up 1.5 tons of explosives. It was the deadliest attack since Arafat's death in November. In Israel's first assassination attempt since Arafat's passing, Israeli helicopters last week wounded a senior Gaza militia commander, Jamal Abu Samhadana.

Israel wants to advance towards peace, but "at the moment we do not see any change on the Palestinian side," Sharon said Monday, in his first public criticism of the new Palestinian leadership, according to the Y-net news agency.

But surveys released last week point toward ferment in Palestinian public opinion after Arafat's death.

About 52 percent of Palestinians oppose bombings against Israeli targets and consider them harmful to Palestinian interests, compared with 26.9 percent in June, according to a poll by the Jerusalem Media and Communications Center. The same poll showed that 40 percent of Palestinians consider Mr. Abbas's Fatah movement to be the most trusted faction, up from 26.4 percent in June.

Hamas was trusted by 18.6 percent, compared to 21.7 percent in June. With the withdrawal from the presidential race Sunday of jailed Fatah leader Marwan Barghouthi, an advocate of the armed intifada, there will be no real political expression for militancy in the election.

In Mr. Abu Abarra's view: "The people on the ground need a change and feel that Abbas will make a change and be helped by the Americans, Israelis, and Arab countries. And Hamas's attitude of boycotting the elections has cost it popularity."

While Palestinians want change and tranquility, the fighting has, if anything, hardened their opinions on the core issues that need to be negotiated with Israel such as Jerusalem and refugees, according to Hisham Ahmed, a political scientist at Bir Zeit University. "People do not want all the losses to be in vain."

Since the start of fighting in September 2000, 3,361 people have died on the Palestinian side, and 1,013 on the Israeli side, according to the Associated Press.

Mr. Ahmed does not view the surveys, which point to a weakening of Hamas, as indications that it faces a sustained decline in popularity and says the movement could profit from Barghouthi's withdrawal from the election race. "There are verbal overtures on both sides, but in practice we've seen no change on the ground," he says. "The occupation, the checkpoints, the killings, and the clashes are still there."

On the Israeli side, Labor Party leaders say they want the Gaza withdrawal followed up by a return to the international peace blueprint known as "the road map," which calls for the establishment of a viable Palestinian state alongside a secure Israel.

But a senior adviser to Sharon, Dov Weisglass, said two months ago that the withdrawal was aimed at "freezing" the peace process, thereby enabling Israel to expand its presence in the West Bank.

Mr. Hofnung, the Hebrew University professor, cautions that the path toward renewed negotiations remains perilous.

"If there are one, two, or three more successful attacks like [the one in Gaza Sunday night] it could make a difference. Israel will have to retaliate and we may go back to square one," he says.

 

[DaTroof]

Posted by NATO Air:

I appreciate the Palestinians sincere attempts at some type of reform. I realize that it's an uphill battle since so many of the constituents have grown up w/ Arafatian diplomacy. That said, here are the parts of the article which I believe indicate just how difficult the reformation of the Palestinian state is going to be ...

"About 52 percent of Palestinians oppose bombings against Israeli targets and consider them harmful to Palestinian interests, compared with 26.9 percent in June, according to a poll"

So up until now 73.1% of the general Palestinian population has thought that blowing up Israeli buses, pizzerias, discoteques, and passover dinners was OK. How do you go from that to living side by side. Like I said .. very difficult. Heck, apparently 48% are still all for martyrdome. Wow, that's lower than the unemployment rate.

"While Palestinians want change and tranquility, the fighting has, if anything, hardened their opinions on the core issues that need to be negotiated with Israel such as Jerusalem and refugees, according to Hisham Ahmed, a political scientist at Bir Zeit University. "People do not want all the losses to be in vain."

This is the core of the problem. Lies told by former Palestinian leaders are now part of the nation's doctrine. THERE WILL NEVER BE A RETURN TO ISRAEL BY ANY "PALESTINIAN" "REFUGEES" !!!! The end !! How stupid would Israel be to allow millions of Arabs/Muslems (How many "Palestinians" now claim to be "refugees" ?! Who knows ?!) to simply take over the country. It would be identity suicide. Israel is making the consessions it's making in order to avoid any unnecessary contact with Arab/Muslems, and yet they want to settle millions of the fuckers in Israel proper. They're out of their bloody gordes. If this is a point that the Palestinians are not willing to forget about completely (F compesation payments to these "refugees" ... did Arab countries make payments to the Jews it booted ?!), I do not see any reason to waste anymore of anyone's time. Build the wall as quickly as possible and disassociate. Jerusalem is another touchy subject. The old city (walled part) is freakin small. Trust me, I lived there. How about if you the Arabs access to their holy shrine as long as they promise to behave up there and not throw rocks down at the Jews praying below ... again. Let's save Jerusalem for a later date if and when the Palestinians prove to have their $%!* together. No more lies and ridiculous promises. Reality must hit home sometime, and now is better than later.

 

[ciplexian]

If Arafat has just accepted Barak's offer at Camp David in 2000 none of this would have had to happen... though perhaps sometimes the only way to learn is to do it the hard way. Hopefully both sides have learned something over the past 4 years.

 

[DaTroof]

Here's a prediction for you. The "refugee Problem" will be solved by payment. That payment will be made by those willing (The US, Israel) or forced on everyone by the UN. Either way, I really don't feel like picking up the tab for these payments. The second part of my prediction is that the sheer # of false applications will cost billions. It will cause a scandal.

Only time will tell.

 

[José]

Originally posted by DaTroof
Here's a prediction for you. The "refugee Problem" will be solved by payment. That payment will be made by those willing (The US, Israel) or forced on everyone by the UN. Either way, I really don't feel like picking up the tab for these payments. The second part of my prediction is that the sheer # of false applications will cost billions. It will cause a scandal.

Only time will tell.

Originally posted by DaTroof
THERE WILL NEVER BE A RETURN TO ISRAEL BY ANY "PALESTINIAN" "REFUGEES" !!!! The end !!

“The Anglo-American war policy has reached a dead end. They have called up the spirits, and can no longer get rid of them. Our predictions, beginning with Poland, are beginning to be confirmed by a remarkable series of current events. One can only smile when the English and Americans forge plans for the year 2000. They will be happy if they survive until 1950.”

Joseph Goebbels, 21, January 1945

“It’s absolutely inconceivable that the boer people will some day share South Africa with Zulus and Xhosas.”

Pieter Botha, last president of SA under apartheid, 1975

"Segregation now! Segregation tomorrow! Segregation forever!"

George Wallace, 1963

So much for "predictions"...

 

[DaTroof]

So let me get this straight Jose .. Because some predictions have'nt been correct, all predictions are not ?!? It is this logic that keeps me riveted to my seat. The fact that there will never be a return by "Palestinian" "refugees"
to Israel proper is not really a prediction. It's a fact. What Israeli politician would ever get elected advocating a return of Palestinians to Israel proper ? I know that you will say that the UN will mandate it. The day the UN mandates "Palestinian return", is the day Israel officially cecedes. So as I said .. it's not a prediction, it's a fact. A fact that the Palestinians should get used to and their Arab neighbors should count on. By that I meen that it's high time the Arab neighbors inculcate these Arabs into their societies instead of using them as pawns for over 50 years now.

I have some other one's that really are predictions ...

1) The Palestinian de facto nation, which will remain when the wall is complete and the withdrawl is secure, will fail miserabely as a country. Terrorism will reign supreme and the mortars / rockets will be launched over the wall regularly. These attacks will result in harsh retaliations like this week's Gaza incursion .. and well they should.

2) No Palestinian leader can get elected without continuing to perpetrate upon his people the lie that Jerusalem will be an Arab nation's capital anytime soon and that the "refugees" will be allowed to settle in Israel ever. These lies will catch up with him / her (as if) at the negotiating table. These will be the 2 biggest true obstacles to agreement, and as usual, the Arabs will want to be paid off. Instead of telling them that Jews booted from Arab lands want to return and set up synagogues and overpopulate the native inhabitants, we will pay them.

3) Even after we pay them, it will mean nothing because this has almost nothing to do with Palestinian statehood and almost everything to do w/ Islam. Bush is wrong .. this fight is about Islam. It's the forcing of a stagnated violent religion to get on with it and reform. It will be a long hard challenge in countries where the education of hate has a long history and the normal unemployment rate would get a US President empeached.

I know you don't agree with almost anything I'm saying Jose, but keep this in mind. If not for petrol dollars, Riyad would still be just a bunch of adobe huts in the desert.

 

[NATO AIR]

This is the core of the problem. Lies told by former Palestinian leaders are now part of the nation's doctrine. THERE WILL NEVER BE A RETURN TO ISRAEL BY ANY "PALESTINIAN" "REFUGEES" !!!! The end !! How stupid would Israel be to allow millions of Arabs/Muslems (How many "Palestinians" now claim to be "refugees" ?! Who knows ?!) to simply take over the country. It would be identity suicide. Israel is making the consessions it's making in order to avoid any unnecessary contact with Arab/Muslems, and yet they want to settle millions of the fuckers in Israel proper. They're out of their bloody gordes. If this is a point that the Palestinians are not willing to forget about completely (F compesation payments to these "refugees" ... did Arab countries make payments to the Jews it booted ?!), I do not see any reason to waste anymore of anyone's time. Build the wall as quickly as possible and disassociate. Jerusalem is another touchy subject. The old city (walled part) is freakin small. Trust me, I lived there. How about if you the Arabs access to their holy shrine as long as they promise to behave up there and not throw rocks down at the Jews praying below ... again. Let's save Jerusalem for a later date if and when the Palestinians prove to have their $%!* together. No more lies and ridiculous promises. Reality must hit home sometime, and now is better than later.

That problem (which I agree is untenable) will eventually be solved by compromise/innovation sometime.

 

[José]

You know NATO AIR,

You sound like a puzzle to me...

It’s hard to believe that the same poster who speak so forcefully against ethnic cleansings going on around the world can look the other way to what happened and continue to happen in Palestine.

You said you deeply respect and admire the jewish character of Israel.

Let’s make a thought experiment:

Let’s imagine that ethnic europeans calling themselves ethnic jews fleeing from a conflict abroad started flocking to Maryland, US, and when they finally outnumbered the american population they created a country for jews expelling or not allowing the return of the american population.

Let’s imagine Israel had been founded in Maryland instead of Palestine, and you had hundreds of americans uprooted from their places of origin and living in a legal limbo without even the most basic civil right: citizenship.

If this had happened in Maryland I doubt you would come into this message board and say things like:

“I deeply respect and admire the “jewish character” of Maryland.”

There’s nothing to respect and admire about the “jewish character” of Israel NATO.

The “jewish character” of western Palestine is the direct result of ethnic cleasing... the SAME ethnic cleansing you so courageously denounce in Kosovo and Sudan.

You are trying to make more palatable what amounts to ethnic supremacy, racism, plain and simple.

In the article you posted the author calls “hardliners” people who oppose the ethnic cleansing of western Palestine and want to see it reversed.

Last time I checked, this was exactly what you advocated in Kosovo and is advocating now in Sudan.

I guess this makes you a “hardliner” too, so welcome to the club, Nato : )

You are basically dividing ethnic cleansings in two groups:

“bad” ethnic cleansings (ethnic cleansings that must be resersed): South Africa, Kosovo, Darfur etc etc

“good” ethnic cleansings (ethnic cleansings that must be enforced): Palestine...

There is no such thing as a “good” ethnic cleansing, NATO...

The one that occurred in Palestine was accepted by the West but it does not make anymore justifiable.

Either you reject all ethnic cleansings or you accept them all !!!!!

I know what’s behind your position. You are desperately trying to align your sense of morality with the american foreign policy so you try to portray Israel as a democracy only tainted by the ocupation of eastern Palestine... as if prior to 67 Israel were a shinning example of democracy.

Well, sorry to break the news to you NATO, but Israel is a jewish supremacist state since the day it was founded in 1948, on the ruins of the arab comunities of western Palestine.

I would like to reproduce for you one of my posts.

I named it the “The Inner War” because it shows the ethical dilemma faced by americans, who, proud of their nation democratic values, find themselves having to rationalize their nation’s support for a state conceived and built upon ethnic supremacism.

If you want to see the context in which this message was posted, you can find it here:

http://www.usmessageboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8632&page=27&pp=15

_________________________________________________________________

The inner war

I know it hurts to hear this truth, but “Americanism” and israeli Zionism are irreconcilable ideologies. America the Idea was founded on the premise that society should not discriminate people for characteristics they had no control, like race.

At the end of the day, William and ajwps are not so different at all. They are the two faces of the same racist coin.

Israeli Zionism is a mirror image of Nazism:

Germany for aryans.

Israel for jews.

If you hold the truth that all men are created equal to be self-evident, you have a moral duty to stand up for your belief in Palestine and say no to the racist, obscene ideology of supremacist Zionism.

America the Tribe only championed the cause of israeli Zionism because of the historical presence of large and influential jewish and evangelical communities in the US.

And to tell you the truth, this is all this question is about... A conflict between America the Tribe and America the Idea. Both Americas are battling for your heart and mind right now. America the Tribe tells you to say yes to Israel while America the Idea tells you to say no. So you remain in the middle of these two opposite voices, confused, scared, divided, without knowing which America to obey. It’s not for me to decide the outcome of this inner war that is being waged inside each one of you. I can only hope America the Idea wins.

 

[José]

When the western press discusses Palestine, it does so using coded language in order to portray jewish racism in a favourable light. We have to decodify certain words first so they can make sense.

I’m referring to words and expressions like “peace process”, “moderate palestinian leader”, “two democratic states living side by side in peace” etc etc...

Afer being decodified, the so-called “peace process” is in fact the ”surrender process”. Surrender to all the things nazi Germany stood for: racial segregation, ethno-religious discrimination.

Call the two state solution whatever you want but, please, don’t call it a democratic solution because it foresees the establishment of two ethnic supremacist states in Palestine and democracy based on ethnic hierarchy is the mother of all oxymorons.

After you remove all the sugar coating, the two state solution (which I prefer to call “the two nazi state solution”) is simply the process of “legitimization” of the ethnic cleansing of the arab population of western Palestine and the jewish communities in the WB and Gaza.

Two state solution is what our friend William Joyce would like to see in America.

Two state solution is the victory of racism, the triumph of ethnic cleansing over true democracy.

There is only one just, moral, jeffersonian solution for Palestine, NATO:

The peaceful dismantlement of the jewish theocratic state and its replacement by a democratic, secular state in historic Palestine.

Stop trying to reconcile the irreconcilable: modern liberal democracy and jurassic ethnocentricity.

There’s no way to be loyal to both Americas in Palestine, NATO.

You have to choose between America the Tribe and America the Idea.

I know this is a hard decision for any american citizen to take, specially a military man like you who swore loyalty to America the Tribe, but as I said in “The inner war”, I hope that, in Palestine, you’ll be brave enough to make the right choice.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

The two state solution is what you get when you can't stop bombing innocents.

What do you want, to take over the state the jews created for yourselves, because your own countries suck?

How come arabs left to their own devices can only create shitty countries. WHy must you take other people's?

 

[Comrade]

You know NATO AIR,

You sound like a puzzle to me...

It’s hard to believe that the same poster who speak so forcefully against ethnic cleansings going on around the world can look the other way to what happened and continue to happen in Palestine.

I may regret stepping in here, but do you mean the Jew hating3. media, glorification of suicide bombing, corrupt and dictatorial government, honor killings, and Islamification of Palestine is all Israels’ fault?

You said you deeply respect and admire the jewish character of Israel.

Let’s make a thought experiment:

Let’s imagine that ethnic europeans calling themselves ethnic jews fleeing from a conflict abroad started flocking to Maryland, US, and when they finally outnumbered the american population they created a country for jews expelling or not allowing the return of the american population.

Already you misunderstand the 1967 conflict, in which Jews outside of Isreal fled into its borders, and Arab Muslims inside fled to Jordan, Egypt, Lebenon, and Syria, where they offered protection and a right to return upon conquering the state of Israel.

Let’s imagine Israel had been founded in Maryland instead of Palestine, and you had hundreds of americans uprooted from their places of origin and living in a legal limbo without even the most basic civil right: citizenship.

Hundreds? We’re they marched out at gunpoint or did they decide to get out of Dodge?

If this had happened in Maryland I doubt you would come into this message board and say things like:

“I deeply respect and admire the “jewish character” of Maryland.”

Does this have something to do with a historical right to make Maryland a ‘Christian’ state as part of the USA as a whole? So you compare Palestine as having a right to be a ‘Muslim’ state because of historical precedence? Do you know your history? If you did, then it’s obvious that Muslims stand in line behind Jews and Christians in declaring such rights to this land. But that’s all just idiotic. What matters is that Israels’ Muslim population is far more numerous as a whole, and far more free, than any Arab state offers its miniscule minority of Dhimmis.

There’s nothing to respect and admire about the “jewish character” of Israel NATO.

The “jewish character” of western Palestine is the direct result of ethnic cleasing... the SAME ethnic cleansing you so courageously denounce in Kosovo and Sudan.

You are trying to make more palatable what amounts to ethnic supremacy, racism, plain and simple.

Don’t confuse race and religion. Arab semites can be either Jews or Muslims and still share the same ‘race’. What you must deal with is that this conflict is a war of ideologies. Which do you choose, Islamic Totalitarianism or a Liberal Democracy?

In the article you posted the author calls “hardliners” people who oppose the ethnic cleansing of western Palestine and want to see it reversed.

So where do Palestinians move to when a Jew builds a house on some empty plot?

“bad” ethnic cleansings (ethnic cleansings that must be resersed): South Africa, Kosovo, Darfur etc etc

Also add Zimbabwe and North Korea. And EVERY SINGLE Arab state with respect to Jews and Christians.

“good” ethnic cleansings (ethnic cleansings that must be enforced): Palestine...

There is no such thing as a “good” ethnic cleansing, NATO...

The one that occurred in Palestine was accepted by the West but it does not make anymore justifiable.

With Israel now the most multi-ethnic state in all of Arabia, I don’t accept you grasp the concept of ethnic cleansing.

Either you reject all ethnic cleansings or you accept them all !!!!!

Again, I remind you that religion is not an ethnicity.

I know what’s behind your position. You are desperately trying to align your sense of morality with the american foreign policy so you try to portray Israel as a democracy only tainted by the ocupation of eastern Palestine... as if prior to 67 Israel were a shinning example of democracy.

Israel IS a democracy, didn’t you know?

Well, sorry to break the news to you NATO, but Israel is a jewish supremacist state since the day it was founded in 1948, on the ruins of the arab comunities of western Palestine.

Sorry to break it to you, but you’re possessed with Hitler’s spirit.

And you’re also channeling Goebbels with this ‘Inner war’ diatribe. I find it disgusting myself.

 

[DaTroof]

Hey Comrade,

Do jump in whenever you would like. I could not agree with your points more. I too have some serious issues w/ Jose's line of thinking.

Jose, you look at the 67 lines as a starting point. Well, those lines went out the window every time Arab nations tried to cross it. You can't seriously expect that Israel should respect a border that it's Arab neighbors have been trying to erase since 48.

I also wholeheartedly reject the idea that Arab "pride" should somehow effect anything at all. Let's call it what it is .. Arab EGO. Well maybe the Arabs, as a people, need to have their egos checked. When you do great things, you get respect, but what Arabs bring to the table is 7th century macho bullshit. It's a demand for respect without the work to earn it. Grow up !!! No one owes the Arabs squat and no one should appease this whinning. The wars are over ... Arabs will get back what they get which is more than they would ever do for the Jews if the situation where reversed. The Arabs can call themselves Palestinians if they so choose, and do whatever they please on their side of that wall, so long as it doesn't come over it. So get over the whole pride thing becasue the world should flat out refuse to pay the Arabs what they think they deserve. Like I said ... grow up.

As for the Jerusalem issue, most Arabs want to deal with it now. They refuse to make any discussion regarding Jerusalem contingent upon Palestinian actions. I suspect that this is because they realize that even if a PA is elected etc, they could never control the Islamic fundamentalism ... regardless of any Israeli land offer. How can Islam, as a religion, preach world conquest (which the quoran clearly calls for ... often) when there are Jews running a free Jewish state next door ?!? No Palestinian candidate can be elected without showing devout faith in Islam. This faith also doomes them to fail at finding peace. How can you pledge allegiance to Islam and promise peace at the same time when they are diaometrically opposing interests ?!

Long story short Jose is that you would like to blame the woes of the Arab world on the rest of the world despite the fact that these Arab countries export their special missery to all these countries in the form of Islam. If the Palestinians and Arab world want to be taken seriously (for something other than happening to live over oil fields), then they must do something about Islam. A PR push to have people refer to Islam as "peaceful" does not help because it's not. So before you go saying that Israel "must" this and that, and that anyone showing sympathy toward a county which is on the front line of the war with Islam is a Nazi, take a good hard look at the Arab/Muslem countries of the world. I can easily argue that these countries, and specifically Islam, are the greatest sources of misery and inhumanity on the planet today. Those in glass houses should not throw moltov coctails.

 

[ajwps]

Abu Mazen, the Fatah party candidate for president of the Palestinian Authority had said that his platform for president of all nomadic Arab populations occupying Israel is two fold.

The initial stage is the declaration of a Palestinian state in Israel and the second is the total annihilation or ethnic cleansing of the Jewish people from their ancestral homeland.

Mazen declared that Israel is definitely attempting to cleanse Israel of all Arabs by moving them to their countries of origin. The Fatah/PLO hopeful declares this act is in contrevention to International Law and the UN declarations for the murder of all the children of Israel.

 

[José]

Originaly posted by ajwps
Abu Mazzen's Declares Ethnic Cleansing of Israel

OK, my funniest and most flamboyant, intense fundamentalist jew, texan physician, arab hater, jew lover etc etc etc...

You said you had no desire to meet me irl, you said my opinions were like farts but I like you all the same : )

I hope you have a terrific 2005 full of patients and trips to Israel (future multi-ethnic state of Palestine).

Just curious:

Do you know Dillo irl???

I’m asking cuz you both live in Texas...

 

[José]

Originaly posted by RWA
The two state solution is what you get when you can't stop bombing innocents.

I’m amazed by the way you descontextualise palestinian violence.

The way you talk you almost convinced me that european settlers arrived in Palestine and created a society of equals there without stealing and seizing any arab property and that all of a sudden the arabs went into a killing frenzy inspired by their religion.

Let’s put some context here:

Arabs in Palestine were victims of a land grab. A bunch of pseudo jews from eastern Europe arrived in Palestine and formed a state by brute force through the illegal seizure of their homes, farms and businessess.

The way you talk about palestinian violence you are assuming history started yesterday.

But I agree with you on this:

The two state solution is dead. No one dares to say outloud yet, but it’s a fact.

The arab population in Palestine will now start a fight for equal israeli citizenship. And as you hinted, this new goal clearly demmands the end of the armed struggle.

You can’t aspire to be a citizen of a given state when you are busy shooting your future countrymen, I give you that.

But the cessation of hostilities does not depend solely on the arabs. If Israel continues its policies of Judaizing the WB in the next years and decades, it will be hard for palestinians to pursue a non-violent path to equal citizenship.

It’s hard to stay peaceful when jewish soldiers are busy expelling your people from their homes and farms to make lebensraum for more jewish settlers.

So let’s hope cooler heads prevail on both sides, so the arab people can pursue a non-violent path towards a single multi-ethnic state in Palestine.

 

[José]

Originaly posted by Comrade
Do you know your history? If you did, then it’s obvious that Muslims stand in line behind Jews and Christians in declaring such rights to this land.

What jews are you talking about??

You mean that bunch of eastern europeans who pray like jews??

Are you referring to all those russians and ukrainians, JUST LIKE YOU?

Don’t make me laugh...

If those ruskies are jews you are a jew too, because genetically they are identical to you... the only difference between you and them is the way they pray.

Now tell me... if your greatgranparents had converted to Shinto, would you have a “right to return” to Japan just because of it?

No, you have to have CLOSE japanese ancestors for that.

If your greatgrandparents converted to Hinduism, would you have a “right to return” to India??

No, you have to have CLOSE Indian ancestors for that.

If your greatgrandparents converted to Judaism, would you have a “right to return” to Palestine??

No, you have to have CLOSE Jewish ancestors for that.

Look, Comrade, you surely remember all the “jews” you met in East Europe, be honest and recognise in front of us all that they were as white as you.

The “right to return” to Palestine of all those Russians and Ukrainians CONVERTED, and I repeat, CONVERTED to Judaism is nothing but a joke... a sad, pathetic, bloody joke for those who remember my thread...

I have nothing against eastern europeans moving to Palestine, as long as they create A SOCIETY OF EQUALS there...

Unfortunately, this was not the case in Palestine.

Originaly posted by Comrade
And you’re also channeling Goebbels with this ‘Inner war’ diatribe. I find it disgusting myself.

Diatribe my ass!!

“The inner war” is, BY FAR, the most important message ever posted on the Israel/Palestine section of the USMB!!

Two weeks after I posted it, Jimnyc sent me an email telling me that “The inner war” was the talk of the town in NYC. Everybody was discussing how unamerican support for Israel really is.

Three days latter, Dillo sent me a private message telling me that the governor of Texas, Rick Perry, had issued a decree establishing that “The inner war” should be mandatory reading in all texan public schools. He also told me that ajwps was already mobilizing the texan jewish community to prevent this from happening.

(Dillo, Jim, just kidding : )

I guess I should adopt Zhukov’s self-definition under my name: “megalomaniac”... lol)

But it is an important post anyway.

 

[José]

Originaly posted by DaTroof
Hey Comrade,
Do jump in whenever you would like.

I second that.

What can one say about Comrade?

Amazing debating skills... Comrade is a real PRO.

The guy is so good that I ALMOST refused to defeat him during the discussion we had in the thread “Where did anti-semitism originate from?” long time ago.

And even when I finally concluded that the imposture perpetrated by Comrade had gone too far and decided to go for the kill by creating and posting devastating messages like “The inner war”, I did so with tears in my eyes knowing full well that I was crushing a first class opponent.... lol

Now seriously.

Comrade is indeed a fantastic debater.

It was a delight to see him and Zhukov discuss the Soviet system with that poster named Wade.

That poster’s stubborn refusal to explicitly recognise that during WWII and the Cold War the US faced and helped rid the world of evil, totalitarian ideologies that glorified race and the state, respectively, was revolting, TO SAY THE LEAST.

I was so outraged by this that I almost joined the fray, but I could see he was already receiving a well-deserved spanking, so there was no need to add insult to injury.

I also fully agree with them, when they refute those bozos who keep saying over and over that the war in Iraq is about oil.

(For those interested in my opinion:

The war in Iraq is about spreading democracy in the Middle East starting in the wrong place: Iraq instead of Palestine.

It’s almost unbelievable to see the way people discuss the war in Iraq here, as if Palestine didn’t exist. While they discuss the war, they completely ignore what’s going on in Palestine as if there was no connection at all between the two conflicts. They are completly isolated inside their american cocoon totally ignorant about what’s going on inside the mind of an average arab.

The posters of the US MESSAGE BOARD are totally unable to grasp the HUGE PSYCHOLOGICAL IMPORTANCE the palestinian cause has in the Middle East.

Take it from someone who spent 5 years of his life in the Middle East:

The arab people will never accept the West’s plan:

Democracy for arabs living in Iraq and jewish racism for arabs living in Palestine.

To make a long story short:

Spread democracy in the Middle East = good.

Start in Iraq instead of Palestine = poor choice.)

OK, now back to Comrade : )

The only thing that prevents Comrade and Zhukov from becoming serious political thinkers is their super patriotism that is completly out of control.

This moronic super patriotism is not worth of their intellect and manifests itself mainly, by their misguided support for the israeli jewish theocracy among other (in my opinion) less important things.

You just can’t type political messages with one hand while waving the american flag with the other and still expect to be regarded as a serious political thinker by posters from other countries or even american posters who managed to get a hold of their own patriotism.

If you come into a political message board with a “I’m for my country and its allies right or wrong” attitude, chances are you’re not gonna be regarded any more seriously than people who blame the US or Israel for the chinese cultural revolution.

Serious political analysis and blind patriotism just don’t mix well.

The business of Comrade and Zhukov is the glorification of the american state, they remember the values of liberal democracy only when it suits their ultra nationalist agenda.

In this regard, Comrade and Zhukov are just the mirror image of Wade and the other bozos they solidly refute, which is a pity, considering their encyclopedic knowledge and tremendous debating skills.

 

[José]

Originaly posted by Comrade
Israel IS a democracy, didn’t you know?

Originally posted by DaTroof
But Israel is a Democracy .. just not for Moslems ... deal with it.

As an agnostic I can’t invoke God’s help, so I call upon the forces of nature to give me patience to deal with Comrade and DaTroof : )

DEMOCRACY ONLY FOR JEWS IS NO DEMOCRACY AT ALL!!

If Israel is only for jews (and symbolic arabs) it can’t be a democracy, datroof!! It’s a jewish ethnocracy just like nazi Germany was an aryan ethnocracy and South Africa an afrikaaner ethnocracy!!!

Ethnocracy is a political regime which, in contrast to democracy, is instituted on the basis of qualified rights to CITIZENSHIP, and with ethnic affiliation as the distinguishing principle. The raison d'être of the ethnocracy is to secure that the most important instruments of state power are controlled by a specific ethnic collectivity.

Calling a state that insists on ethno-religious purity a liberal democracy is oxyMORONIC since you can’t call for ethnic exclusivity by denying citizenship to millions of refugees without depriving the word democracy of its own essence.

Beneath its marketed image as a democracy, Israel is a theocratic state. A theocracy of the jews, by the jews, for the jews.

In the battle between open societies and states based on ethnic/religious supremacy, Israel is indeed much closer to Iran and Saudi Arabia than to the West.

 

[José]

Originally posted by DaTroof
So let me get this straight Jose .. Because some predictions have'nt been correct, all predictions are not ?!? It is this logic that keeps me riveted to my seat.

Ok,,, I should have said:

“So much for RACIST predictions.”

But I concede that would still be a logical fallacy since you can’t conclude that all racist predictions are wrong from the fact that some are.

Look, let’s forget about formal logics ok?

The point I was trying to make by quoting Goebbels, Botha and Wallace is this:

In today’s world one should think twice before making racist predictions like those three individuals did.

Let’s face it:

Ethnic segregation, the ideals shared by white supremacist groups and Israel have lost the battle for the hearts and minds of our species.

Israel is set on a collision course with modernity, with the 21th, 22th and 23th centuries.

The israeli army is the second or third most powerful army in the world. It would be fair to ask why should a state like this should agree to share Palestine with with a pathetically weak people in posession of about 50 thousand rifles.

The answer to this question is that Israel has won the military war but lost a much more crucial one: THE IDEOLOGICAL WAR.

The red army was not able to keep alive a state based on state totalitarism and supression of human entrepreneurship and the zionist army won’t be able to save a state that insists in ethnic purity, depriving democracy of its very meaning.

The israeli army can do nothing to change the fact that the state it is supposed to protect is becoming more and more anachronic with each passing day.

Israel’s reputation in wolrd opinion has nose-dived. People living in the US may not be able to recognise this clearly, but Israel is getting closer and closer to the condition of a pariah state. When Israel’s supporters who are old enough to remember the unanimous support Israel enjoyed from the world community during the 50’s and 60’s and compared to the current situation, they shudder.

And not only the support from abroad is dwindling, but each new generation of israelis is less zionist than their parents were. In their minds, israeli Zionism is becoming synonimous not with a jewish national liberation movement, but with opression and discrimination of the native arab population of Israel.

More and more young israelis refuse to define themselves as zionists. They will surelly identify themselves less and less with the racist ideology that created their country.

Paradoxically, Israel’s worst enemy is not suicide bombers, but its own younger generations.

This century or the next will witness the last chapter of israeli Zionism.

AND THE BIGGEST IRONY OF ALL is that, eventually, America the Idea will triumph in Palestine AGAINST the wishes of America the Tribe.

 

[José]

The peaceful end of Israel will be the most important event of the century.

Just try to imagine:

The gates of the border crossing between Israel and Gaza and the West Bank Wall are opened by jewish soldiers, and hundreds of thousands of Palestinians cross the border into the former jewish state, jumping, shouting and celebrating like mads.

“Israel is no more!!!!!!

Israel is finished!!!!”

It will be a marvelous scene to behold... a mixture of the fall of the Berlin Wall with the end of apartheid in SA.

After living locked up in those impoverished, overcrowded arab Bantustans many palestinians will bring with them the keys of the homes their fathers and grandfathers owned in pre-Israel palestine, homes that don’t exist anymore but that prove that they belong in western Palestine.

BRAVE ISRAELI JEWS who courageously opposed the twisted version of Zionism Israel stood for, will be there to hug and cry together with them. They will sob words like this: “Forgive us for what our people did to you.”

One will have to be made of steel to hold back the tears at the sight of this extremely touching scene.

They paid a high price for their courage: they were called traitors, they were called the far left, they were spat and bullied on the streets of Tel-Aviv and Jerusalem, but they will now be called the jewish heroes of the struggle against apartheid.

Even if Israel’s peaceful end does not happen in this spectacular, dramatic way, it will still mean the same.

After Nazi Germany and South Africa, mankind will celebrate the victory over another racist political entity. From that moment on, all men will not only be CREATED equal, they will also be TREATED as equals in Palestine.

And I’m sure Jefferson will be smiling in his grave.