Israelis are not Semites

[Grau]

Google doesn't know how many you think live there.

Before 7 October 2023, I would guess that there were only about 1,000 residents of Gaza who were Christians.

Today, I would be uncomfortable trying to guess exactly how many of Gaza's Christians have survived Netanyahu's genocide.

Far more Palestinian Christians live / lived in the West Bank.
As of 7 October 2023, about 47,000 West Bank Arabs were Christian but, since then, rabid "Settlers" and IDF have murdered about 1,000 including an American citizen who was beaten to death.

Israel's pampered, violent and entitled "Settlers" even kill Palestinian livestock, destroy Palestinian crops, homes, farming equipment.

How many Palestinian Cristians do you think live in Gaza and then the West Bank and why are Christians being murdered, tormented and driven from their homes of generations?

Finally, how do you justify IDF's firing on refugees seeking cover in A Christian church?

Is this what you support?

 

[Woodznutz]

Ok Bunky.

Semitic 1 of 2 adjective​

Se·mit·ic sə-ˈmi-tik


1 : of, relating to, or constituting a subfamily of the Afro-Asiatic language family that includes Hebrew, Aramaic, Arabic, and Amharic

2 : of, relating to, or characteristic of the Semites

3 : Jewish

4. Descendants of Shem.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Before 7 October 2023, I would guess that there were only about 1,000 residents of Gaza who were Christians.

Today, I would be uncomfortable trying to guess exactly how many of Gaza's Christians have survived Netanyahu's genocide.

Far more Palestinian Christians live / lived in the West Bank.
As of 7 October 2023, about 47,000 West Bank Arabs were Christian but, since then, rabid "Settlers" and IDF have murdered about 1,000 including an American citizen who was beaten to death.

Israel's pampered, violent and entitled "Settlers" even kill Palestinian livestock, destroy Palestinian crops, homes, farming equipment.

How many Palestinian Cristians do you think live in Gaza and then the West Bank and why are Christians being murdered, tormented and driven from their homes of generations?

Finally, how do you justify IDF's firing on refugees seeking cover in A Christian church?

Is this what you support?

Before 7 October 2023, I would guess that there were only about 1,000 residents of Gaza who were Christians.

Only 1000? I guess the Muslims were killing them or driving them out, eh?

why are Christians being murdered, tormented and driven from their homes of generations?

That's what Muslims do.

 

[Shusha]

Next, as per UN Resolution # 242 and # 338,

UNSCR 242 has been concluded. It affirms the necessity of peace between all States in the region. It calls for the withdrawal of Israeli armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict. This resolution was concluded between Israel and Egypt in 1979 with the Treaty of Peace Between the State of Israel and the Arab Republic of Egypt (Article 2) and with Jordan in 1994 with the Treaty of Peace Between the State of Israel and the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan (Article 3). Resolution 242 no longer has any relevance to the conflict. UNSCR 338 only refers to 242 and has nothing of relevant substance of itself.

many if not most of the hostages were trespassing "Settlers"

Are you seriously trying to argue that it was perfectly legal to abduct Kfir from his home, strangle him, beat him with rocks, then withhold his body, pretending he was still living so as to trade him back? Seriously? Because he was "trespassing"? Are you seriously arguing that Noa was arrested for committing a crime? Or that Judih and Gadi were found guilty of a crime after due process and lawfully executed?

Stop. Just stop.

Israel exists. Israel has the right to sovereignty, political independence, and territorial integrity and the right to live in peace with secure and recognized borders (see UNSCR 242, Article 1.2 since you brought it up).

The 252 individuals taken on October 7 were hostages. Hostage-taking is illegal and morally reprehensible in every case.

Finally, Israel's practice of selective arrest invalidates the charges against those Palestinians suspected of committing crimes.

The "selective" part of the detainment process is the commission of crimes, particularly crimes of violence and terrorism against civilians.



It seems to me that you have, in a strange, roundabout way, answered my question. You seem to agree that there is no moral or legal equivalence between taking of hostages and detaining those who commit crimes. You've just inverted the two circumstances.

In your view, it is a crime (trespassing) for Jews to live in Israel. It is a crime carrying the penalty of death. It is a crime for which any Palestinian can immediately and without consequence carry out the penalty on any Israeli (resistance).

Morally repugnant.

 

[toomuchtime_]

Before 7 October 2023, I would guess that there were only about 1,000 residents of Gaza who were Christians.

Only 1000? I guess the Muslims were killing them or driving them out, eh?

why are Christians being murdered, tormented and driven from their homes of generations?

That's what Muslims do.

Indeed they do, and it has been that way since the earliest days of Islamic civilization:

Before 7 October 2023, I would guess that there were only about 1,000 residents of Gaza who were Christians.

Only 1000? I guess the Muslims were killing them or driving them out, eh?

why are Christians being murdered, tormented and driven from their homes of generations?

That's what Muslims do.

Indeed, they do and have done so since the earliest days of Islamic civilization:

Christians were still lower down and slaves and Jews were at the bottom of the social order. From the early years of Islamic civilization, Muslim jurists, basing on Qur’anic directives, devised an elaborate hierarchy in which monotheistic non-Muslims, such as Christians and Jews, would be “protected” at a low level and tolerated as second-class citizens. Guidelines for their treatment were embodied in the “Pact of ‘Umar.” Limitations on the status of non-Muslims included discriminatory clothing regulations and occupational restrictions. Non-Muslims were required to pay a poll tax (jizya) as well as discriminatory taxes on agricultural produce.

“Ornament of the World” and the Jews of Spain

At times tolerant, at other times intensely intolerant, Spain’s intergroup relations formed a fragile coexistence of Muslims, Christians, and Jews. Although often tenuous, the coexistence of diverse languages, peoples, and religions produced an extraordinary symbiosis and distinctive...

www.neh.gov

 

[Shusha]

You act like there is some sort of moral equivalence between occasional use of crude I.E.D.s, more frequent rock throwing etc and ... military air strikes

There is, of course, no equivalence in the capacity for harm and damage. But that is not what MORAL equivalency is.

 

[Shusha]

Again, it is their right to resist an illegal and internationally condemned occupation /genocide.

There is neither occupation nor genocide. The Arab Palestinians absolutely have a right to self-determination, in the form of sovereignty, political independence, and territorial integrity. They absolutely have the right to secede from Israel and form their own State. (They can't seem to be able to DO it, but they have that right.) The Arab Palestinians DO NOT have the right to act with belligerence with the intent to dismantle or destroy the existing State of Israel. The Arab Palestinians DO NOT have the right to interfere with Israel's sovereignty, political independence, and territorial integrity.

Wouldn't you?

I absolutely would. Do you know what my "resistance" would look like? In Gaza, in 2005, it would have looked like investing the BILLIONS of dollars flowing into the territory toward clean water infrastructure, power grids, quality schools and universities, development of economic partnerships with Israel and others, tourism, and all the other things that work towards the viability of a State.

I would have protested the toxic education curriculum and its portrayal of Yehudi. I would have raised an outcry at using children to dig the tunnels, and of the existence of the tunnels themselves. I would have worked to ensure neighborhoods were weapons-free. I would write and publish against jihad and martyrdom.

Don't come back at me with, "But the poor, poor Palestinians aren't capable of doing that." They built 700km of tunnels and military infrastructure, imported hundreds of thousands of weapons, completed military trainings. They are a very capable people.

 

[GLASNOST]

Israel's pampered, violent and entitled "Settlers" even kill Palestinian livestock, destroy Palestinian crops, homes, farming equipment.

Yes. It is well-documented.

 

[Grau]

Before 7 October 2023, I would guess that there were only about 1,000 residents of Gaza who were Christians.

Only 1000? I guess the Muslims were killing them or driving them out, eh?

why are Christians being murdered, tormented and driven from their homes of generations?

That's what Muslims do.

It's a good thing I didn't expect a serious and mature response from you.

Hamas doesn't have any tanks to fire on starving refugees.

"Israeli strike hits Gaza church, killing 3 and wounding priest who was close to Pope Francis"​

Israeli strike hits Gaza church, killing 3 and wounding priest who was close to Pope Francis

An Israeli shell slammed into the compound of the only Catholic church in the Gaza Strip, killing three people and wounding 10 others, including the parish priest, according to church officials.

apnews.com

EXCERPT "An Israeli shell slammed into the compound of the only Catholic church in the Gaza Strip on Thursday, killing three people and wounding 10 others, including the parish priest, according to church officials." CONTINUED


What part of: ""An Israeli shell slammed into the compound of the only Catholic church...." is confusing to you?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Hamas doesn't have any tanks to fire on starving refugees.

Right, they kill them in other ways.

 

[Grau]

Yes. It is well-documented.

That's funny because our apologists for Netanyahu's U.S. funded Zionist genocide know nothing about it.

Go figure......

 

[GLASNOST]

It's a good thing I didn't expect a serious and mature response from you.

Hamas doesn't have any tanks to fire on starving refugees.

Can it be there are people who don't know that.

What part of: ""An Israeli shell slammed into the compound of the only Catholic church...." is confusing to you?

"Confused"? No ...... denied. They think, 'when my guys do it it's good' .... 'when the other guys do it's bad'.

 

[GLASNOST]

That's funny because our apologists for Netanyahu's U.S. funded Zionist genocide know nothing about it.

Go figure......

Amazing, isn't it.

 

[Grau]

There is neither occupation nor genocide. The Arab Palestinians absolutely have a right to self-determination, in the form of sovereignty, political independence, and territorial integrity. They absolutely have the right to secede from Israel and form their own State. (They can't seem to be able to DO it, but they have that right.) The Arab Palestinians DO NOT have the right to act with belligerence with the intent to dismantle or destroy the existing State of Israel. The Arab Palestinians DO NOT have the right to interfere with Israel's sovereignty, political independence, and territorial integrity.

I absolutely would. Do you know what my "resistance" would look like? In Gaza, in 2005, it would have looked like investing the BILLIONS of dollars flowing into the territory toward clean water infrastructure, power grids, quality schools and universities, development of economic partnerships with Israel and others, tourism, and all the other things that work towards the viability of a State.

I would have protested the toxic education curriculum and its portrayal of Yehudi. I would have raised an outcry at using children to dig the tunnels, and of the existence of the tunnels themselves. I would have worked to ensure neighborhoods were weapons-free. I would write and publish against jihad and martyrdom.

Don't come back at me with, "But the poor, poor Palestinians aren't capable of doing that." They built 700km of tunnels and military infrastructure, imported hundreds of thousands of weapons, completed military trainings. They are a very capable people.

In our earlier discussion in which you insisted that all Jews were Semites regardless of their ethnic background, I felt that you were simply denying an undeniable reality.

An Eskimo doesn't magically transform into a Semite the precise moment he converts to Judaism.

I only bring this up because I feel like you are simply denying reality when you write:

There is neither occupation nor genocide.

While you may feel that Zionists and foreign Jews are entitled to all of former Palestine at the expense of Palestine's long term existing population, such feelings are not legitimate, workable options.

"UN top court says Israeli occupation of Palestinian territories is illegal"​

ICJ says Israeli occupation of Palestinian territories is illegal

It also says Israel should end all settlement activity there, in the landmark case.

www.bbc.com

EXCERPT "The UN's top court has said Israel's occupation of Palestinian territories is against international law, in a landmark opinion." CONTINUED


Yes, the current Netanyahu government is, indeed, committing Genocide according to experts in the field and the vast majority of the thinking world:

"Rights expert finds ‘reasonable grounds’ genocide is being committed in Gaza"​

Rights expert finds ‘reasonable grounds’ genocide is being committed in Gaza

There are "reasonable grounds" to believe that Israel is committing genocide against Palestinians in Gaza, the UN Special Rapporteur on the situation of human rights in the Occupied Palestinian Territories said on Tuesday.

news.un.org

EXCERPT "Citing international law, Ms. Albanese explained that genocide is defined as a specific set of acts committed with the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group.

“Specifically, Israel has committed three acts of genocide with the requisite intent: causing seriously serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group, deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part, and imposing measures intended to prevent birth within the group,” she said.

Furthermore, “the genocide in Gaza is the most extreme stage of a long-standing settler colonial process of erasure of the native Palestinians,” she continued." CONTINUED

----------------------------------------------

Because I don't think that it is possible to have a productive and substantive discussion when we differ on such basic realities as the Netanyahu government's genocidal occupation, I don't think that we will get very far in discussing less clearly defined realities.

I can assure you that I would be just as vocal in condemning US funded genocides against innocent Jews by Muslims because I have spent time in and around 3rd World war zones and do not wish for anyone to have to endure the misery experienced by the long tormented residents of Gaza today.

Re:

Don't come back at me with, "But the poor, poor Palestinians aren't capable of doing that."

You are mistaken in your belief that the Palestinians have been blessed with $ Billions in aid because the Israeli government either finds a way to redirect it to themselves or destroy any infrastructure built with it as the ruins of Gaza confirm.

"72% OF AID TO PALESTINIANS ENDS UP IN ISRAELI HAANDS"

72 Percent Of Aid To Palestine Ends Up 'In Israeli Hands'

Aid money to Palestine ends up benefiting Israel, and may even help perpetuate the occupation.

www.mintpressnews.com

EXCERPT "RAMALLAH — Aid money to Palestine ends up benefiting the Israeli economy, and may even help perpetuate the occupation, according to an analysis published last year.

Published by Aid Watch Palestine, a Palestinian NGO that scrutinizes the spending of foreign relief money, the September 2015 study by Shir Hever suggests that at least 72 percent of foreign aid actually ends up back in Israeli hands." CONTINUED

-----------------------------------------

Since every right wing Israeli government has refused to show any interest in an equitable and durable peace, Palestine's native residents have no choice but to defend their homes and land as best as they can in their "Slingshot vs F-16" struggle.
Therefore, your idea of a peaceful "resistance" is not possible as long as illegal Settlement sprawl pollute the land with murderous right wing "Settlers".

"Israel Does Not Want Peace"
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-does-not-want-peace-1.5253291

EXCERPT "Rejectionism is embedded in Israel's most primal beliefs. There, at the deepest level, lies the concept that this land is destined for the Jews alone.

Israel does not want peace. There is nothing I have ever written that I would be happier to be proved wrong about. But the evidence is piling up. In fact, it can be said that Israel has never wanted peace – a just peace, that is, one based on a just compromise for both sides.

The single most overwhelming item of evidence of Israel’s rejection of peace is, of course, the settlements project. From the dawn of its existence, there has never been a more reliable or more precise litmus test for Israel’s true intentions than this particular enterprise." CONTINUED

------------------------------

I will be glad to continue discussing this topic with you but as long as you deny Netanyahu's genocide and support an illegal and internationally condemned Occupation, we are not likely to agree on what might bring about a peaceful resolution of this volatile topic.

Finally, if I don't respond to every one of your comments it is only because I have less free time these days.

Thanks,

 

[Grau]

Can it be there are people who don't know that.

"Confused"? No ...... denied. They think, 'when my guys do it it's good' .... 'when the other guys do it's bad'.

Right again...

Re:

No ...... denied. They think, 'when my guys do it it's good' .... 'when the other guys do it's bad'.

I rarely see such stubborn and delusional denial except when discussing Israel - Palestine.

Thanks,

 

[Shusha]

In our earlier discussion in which you insisted that all Jews were Semites regardless of their ethnic background, I felt that you were simply denying an undeniable reality.

An Eskimo doesn't magically transform into a Semite the precise moment he converts to Judaism.

You are not understanding. You fail to grasp the distinction between individual Jews and the collective of the Jewish people. The Jewish people, as a collective, are a Semitic peoples, regardless of the blood quantum of each individual Jew. This is because the Jewish people, as a collective, hold one of the languages and cultures that make up the group of peoples known as the Semitic peoples.

You hold onto this false idea that a certain blood quantum of "semitic blood" is required in order to be "really" Jewish. (A concept, by the way, which I find vile and which has been used in the past to cause harm to indigenous peoples). The claim that Jews are converts and therefore not eligible for inclusion in the collective of the Jewish (Semitic) people is deliberately crafted to separate, erase, and deny Jewish culture, indigeneity, and connection to their origins in their homeland. It other words, it is crafted deliberately to prevent or demonize or dismantle the rights of the Jewish people to self-determination.

I would never in a million years suggest that Arab Palestinians be subjected to genetic testing to affirm their "right" to live in "Palestine", and deny them that right if they turned out to be too Egyptian, too Saudi, too Jordanian, too Syrian, too Lebanese, too Iraqi, or too Irish. Let alone deny them the right to self-determination because there are not enough of them with the correct genetic results to warrant it.

The UN definition of indigeneity (which I think is morally sound) depends on only two conditions:

1. self-identification as part of the indigenous collective
2. acceptance by the collective

If we wanted to create a more robust definition, we could add:

3. holding and carrying forward the indigenous culture of the collective by:

• speaking the language
• practicing the religious faith traditions
• performing rituals or other cultural practices
• following a set of rules or laws specific to the culture
• celebrating life events according to custom
• commemorating holidays and days of remembrance
• memorializing historical events
• wearing traditional clothing
• eating traditional foods
• story-telling and oral traditions
• visiting and caretaking important locations in the land

While you may feel that Zionists and foreign Jews are entitled to all of former Palestine at the expense of Palestine's long term existing population, such feelings are not legitimate, workable options.

None of this is based on my feelings. It is based on a reasonable and objective set of guidelines and international law that I apply universally.

1. the concept of self-determination as a right belonging to collectives of peoples
2. the requirement for the capacity to develop a functioning State
3. the inalienable right of a State to sovereignty, political independence, and territorial integrity
4. the right of the peoples of all States to live in security and peace with their neighbors

In your paragraph above, you are either misunderstanding or misrepresenting my position, which is, and has always been:

The rights of BOTH the Jewish people and the Arab Palestinian people to self-determination on some portion of the territory. The rights of BOTH peoples to sovereignty, political independence, and territorial integrity in the form of a State or in the form of any number of other creative political structures. The requirement for the capacity to build an effective government capable of dealing with the demands of international interactions. The requirement for the conflict to be ended with both a formal peace treaty and practical, real-life peace.

This is a reasonable, workable, legitimate position to take. In fact, it is and has been, the position of the international community since the 1920s. If you find fault with this position - and by that I mean the position itself, not putting the position into practice - then please do, by all means, point out your objections. There are four essential elements: self-determination; capacity for governing; sovereignty over territory; peace. Which of those concepts would you object to?

 

[Shusha]

"UN top court says Israeli occupation of Palestinian territories is illegal"​

This is factually incorrect.

The question before the Court was:

(a) What are the legal consequences arising from the ongoing violation by Israel of the right of the Palestinian people to self-determination, from its prolonged occupation, settlement and annexation of the Palestinian territory occupied since 1967, including measures aimed at altering the demographic composition, character and status of the Holy City of Jerusalem, and from its adoption of related discriminatory legislation and measures?
(b) How do the policies and practices of Israel referred to in paragraph 18 (a) above affect the legal status of the occupation, and what are the legal consequences that arise for all States and the United Nations from this status?”

The Court may only respond to the questions posed. These questions PRESUME (erringly) violations by Israel and asked the Court to opine on the PRESUMED legal consequences of those violations.

Excerpt, Judge Sebutinde's dissenting opinion (emphasis mine):

The Court has misapplied the law of belligerent occupation and has adopted presumptions implicit in the question of the General Assembly without a prior critical analysis of relevant issues, including the application of the principle of uti possidetis juris to the territory of the former British Mandate, the question of Israel’s borders and its competing sovereignty claims, the nature of the Palestinian right of self-determination and its relationship to Israel’s own rights and security concerns  The only avenue for a permanent solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict remains the negotiation framework set out in the United Nations and bilateral agreements.

AND

In my view, the Court, in exercising its discretion judiciously and maintaining the integrity of its judicial role, should have refrained from rendering the Advisory Opinion requested. The framing of the questions in resolution 77/247 assumes certain legal and factual conclusions, thereby precluding a thorough and balanced examination of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict’s distinctive historical background. Furthermore, most statements in the Court dossier present a unilateral perspective of the conflict, which reinforces the imbalanced approach in the Court’s Advisory Opinion. For example, whilst the questions presume that there is an “ongoing violation by Israel of the right of the Palestinian people to self-determination”; and that “since 1967, Israel has unlawfully ‘occupied’ territory” that previously comprised British Mandatory territory, the Court has not received arguments or evidence on the territorial scope (i.e. borders) of the State of Israel as on the eve of independence; nor of Israel’s competing territorial claims in relation to the disputed territory. These are issues that must first be addressed before the legal consequences of the alleged occupation of territory by Israel, or the territorial scope of Palestinian self-determination, can be determined.

You can read her full dissent here.


The ICJ has never adjudicated nor opined on the legal status of the territories, nor on the sovereign claim of Israel to the territories. Given that one can not "occupy" territory to which one has sovereign claim, such an adjudication or opinion would have to be handed down before any claim of illegal occupation can be made.

"Rights expert finds ‘reasonable grounds’ genocide is being committed in Gaza"​

Without commenting on Francesca Albanese's capacity or competence to be defined as a "rights expert" ( ), nor on the validity of the UN's Human Rights Council ( ), this article fails to address the crucial component of the crime of genocide, which is intent.

A dozen "experts" may say it is a genocide. Another dozen "experts" may say it does not reach the threshold for genocide. Just saying it doesn't make it true.

You have to argue on the merits of the claim. In my opinion, the war in Gaza does not meet the criteria for intent, as evidenced by:

• the small number of civilian deaths for a war of this length and scale**
• the lengths Israel has gone with undeniable intent to avoid civilian deaths such as: warning of impending strikes; creation of humanitarian non-combat zones; evacuation of individual buildings, as well as areas of combat; provision of humanitarian aid.
• the conditions under which Israel has been forced to fight: unlawful prevention of civilians from fleeing to safety; extensive tunnel system; military objectives embedded in civilian infrastructure; deliberate use of children in military capacity; lack of distinction, such as uniforms, for military operatives; concern for the hostages.

It would be entirely fair to claim that Israel has not done enough to prevent civilian harm; or it has been met with failures; or that it has made egregious errors, in planning and in execution; or that individuals have committed war crimes; or any other number of criticisms as to how Israel has conducted this war. However, this is not the equivalent of intent to commit genocide.


**This is not intended in any way to minimize the tragedy of the lives lost. Every life is sacred and every life lost is a horror.

 

[The Irish Ram]

I assure you, God knows who Abraham's children are and is about to intervene as soon as the world insists that Israel is whittled down to 9 miles across and give away 1/2 of Jerusalem.
The result will be that God wins, and gives the WHOLE land He deeded to the Israelites in the first place, back. Jesus Christ plans on residing in Jerusalem. All of it.

I will bless those that bless you and curse those who curse you.
^
Just in case God is who He says He is, and He has given us the recipe for blessings and curses, why o why would you choose curse?

 

[Roudy]

I assure you, God knows who Abraham's children are and is about to intervene as soon as the world insists that Israel is whittled down to 9 miles across and give away 1/2 of Jerusalem.
The result will be that God wins, and gives the WHOLE land He deeded to the Israelites in the first place, back. Jesus Christ plans on residing in Jerusalem. All of it.

I will bless those that bless you and curse those who curse you.
^
Just in case God is who He says He is, and He has given us the recipe for blessings and curses, why o why would you choose curse?

These retards don’t realize that Zion in the both the old and new testaments is just another way of saying Jerusalem.

 

[The Irish Ram]

So they don't look like the new Hitler, who didn't make the distinction of Jew vs Zionist, they try to limit the hate to a portion of the Jews, to justify their antisemitism. It is worldwide, and step by step is predicted in the Bible. This world is about to get its ass whipped.