CDZ Israel and Palestine

[TemplarKormac]

If you're referring to Israeli's in the OPT, and you're defining "acceptable" as "legal", then yes, it is acceptable. Nationals of an occupying power in the area that is occupied, are not protected persons.

So, these are civilians, and any attack on them is justified. I get it. Don't evacuate them, just kill them.

Show no mercy, receive none in return.

 

[flacaltenn]

That's exactly the sequence of events when Israel granted autonomy to Gaza. Isn't it? Negotiated in good faith with ONE entity supposedly representing the government of Palestine. And got Hamas instead. And rocket attacks. And terrorist tunnels. No one is stupid enough to go thru the process of removing blockades and promoting trade with a militant faction that has no International credibility as a government..

SO --- you blessed the Israeli retaliation against Hamas in Gaza -- it appears..
Palestinian choices have consequences. They are not listening to you or me. And there's a whole closet full of really bad choices in their house..

Except for the fact that they didn't grant autonomy to Gaza. They still controlled their airspace and coastal waters. They've also maintained "effective control" of the area ever since, which satisfies the definition of an "occupation". They constantly shoot at their fishermen and farmers. Conduct missile attacks on a weekly basis. And every other year, make up some BS reason to invade and destroy large portions of their infrastructure, which is a war crime.

Gaza is a prison. Gazans can't leave without Israeli permission, which I find disgusting! If my neighbor tried to tell me when I could leave my house, or where I could (or could not) go, I'd rip his god-damn head off!

Israel has no right telling the Palestinian's how to live their lives on their own property.

Yes. Gaza resembles Detroit with the roads closed. Your heroes didn't give the path to autonomy a chance.

If you think autonomy is something that happens one day at 12 midnight -- you're not paying attention to the way things work. There was A PLAN and A PROCESS for normalized relations, normalized trade, and eventual unification with the WBank. It was well designed. The parties to the process changed and so did the good faith that started that opportunity.

Not ALL -- but the bulk of the blame for that failure is the militarization of Hamas. They morphed from a social welfare group to revolutionaries when this "weakness" was shown for peace. Bad calculation dude. Should have had some patience and priorities. The Palis don't seem to understand negotiations and processes. That's why they are screwed unless they find some leadership..

 

[flacaltenn]

Before I leave (for real this time), let's be clear. You're saying the Palestinians are committing violence out of self-defense, but when Israel strikes back, its murder.

Or are you prepared to admit that what Palestine is doing is just as unacceptable?

I'm saying once Israel ends the occupation and blockade, after that, if they receive a rocket, I fully support Israeli retaliation. Militarily.

Until then, its not striking back and its not self defense...........its aggression.

You aren't answering the question. So when Israeli citizens die by Palestinian hands, it's acceptable because "occupation"

Alright then.

It's acceptable if it is a military target.

It's a waste of human life if you die doing something suicidal, like attacking military targets -- if you have no leaders or plan to die for. That's how the PLO got to be known world-wide. Because if you died for the PLO in an attack, the leadership would make your sacrifice worth something. Inciting kids to commit suicide when no one outside of the Holy Land will ever hear about it ---- is immoral and stupid..

 

[flacaltenn]

Interesting, but since Israeli civilians aren't military targets, I have a hard time with that assertion. Hence why I said "Israeli citizens" i.e. people who have nothing to do with the conflict.

And before someone else chimes in and says "Israel targets Palestinians civilians too!" Be reminded what the terrorists in Gaza did to the civilians when Israel bombed Gaza.

Funny how Palestinian's are terrorists, but Israeli's are citizens?

Don't broadstroke much, do you?

Palestinians don't WANT to be citizens. Largely don't even recognize the Homeland rights of the occupiers. When they didn't recognize the homeland rights of the Jordanians (when the Jordanians were the occupiers) they marched tanks on Amman and got their asses kicked out..

I understand the concept of "ancestral homeland". But without a national identity, you can't build a nation. The Palis want to return to Zion or whatever they call it. So -- they are Zionists and they ought to recognize that and figure out how that's done...

 

[TemplarKormac]

Before I leave (for real this time), let's be clear. You're saying the Palestinians are committing violence out of self-defense, but when Israel strikes back, its murder.

Or are you prepared to admit that what Palestine is doing is just as unacceptable?

I'm saying once Israel ends the occupation and blockade, after that, if they receive a rocket, I fully support Israeli retaliation. Militarily.

Until then, its not striking back and its not self defense...........its aggression.

You aren't answering the question. So when Israeli citizens die by Palestinian hands, it's acceptable because "occupation"

Alright then.

It's acceptable if it is a military target.

Interesting, but since Israeli civilians aren't military targets, I have a hard time with that assertion. Hence why I said "Israeli citizens" i.e. people who have nothing to do with the conflict.

And before someone else chimes in and says "Israel targets Palestinians civilians too!" Be reminded what the terrorists in Gaza did to the civilians when Israel bombed Gaza.

And Billo_Really , just for the record, had you been reading more carefully, I made a clear delineation between terrorists and civilians. So no, not all Palestinians are terrorists. But the risk for allowing them into Israel is too great. The potential for there to be a terrorist in their midst is immeasurable. These people should be angry with Hamas and Hezbollah, thanks to them they will never gain trust in the eyes of Israel. And who is to say they want to be citizens in the first place?

You're looking at this all wrong, and I know there isn't any way to convince you otherwise. Though, it isn't my place to.

 

[TemplarKormac]

Before I leave (for real this time), let's be clear. You're saying the Palestinians are committing violence out of self-defense, but when Israel strikes back, its murder.

Or are you prepared to admit that what Palestine is doing is just as unacceptable?

I'm saying once Israel ends the occupation and blockade, after that, if they receive a rocket, I fully support Israeli retaliation. Militarily.

Until then, its not striking back and its not self defense...........its aggression.

You aren't answering the question. So when Israeli citizens die by Palestinian hands, it's acceptable because "occupation"

Alright then.

It's acceptable if it is a military target.

It's a waste of human life if you die doing something suicidal, like attacking military targets -- if you have no leaders or plan to die for. That's how the PLO got to be known world-wide. Because if you died for the PLO in an attack, the leadership would make your sacrifice worth something. Inciting kids to commit suicide when no one outside of the Holy Land will ever hear about it ---- is immoral and stupid..

It takes advantage of their desperation and gives them a false hope. Gives kids nothing to strive for but a glorious death in the name of Allah.

Billo showed me a video earlier of IDF soldiers ruthlessly beating a restrained Palestinian man earlier. While that is unbecoming of Israel's character, I can't help but notice how he ignores how the powers that be in the pseudo-state of Palestine use their children as weapons, and instill a false hope in their people which drives them to commit acts of barbarity. They showed that when they crammed buildings being bombed by Israeli warplanes with innocent civilians, basically condemning them to their deaths,so they could claim Israel did it on purpose. The plan is there for all to see. When they have no hope of winning against a vastly superior military force, the opinion of outsiders is their only weapon. What better way to influence that opinion than by sacrificing their own people to that end.

 

[Billo_Really]

It takes advantage of their desperation and gives them a false hope. Gives kids nothing to strive for but a glorious death in the name of Allah.

Billo showed me a video earlier of IDF soldiers ruthlessly beating a restrained Palestinian man earlier. While that is unbecoming of Israel's character, I can't help but notice how he ignores how the powers that be in the pseudo-state of Palestine use their children as weapons, and instill a false hope in their people which drives them to commit acts of barbarity. They showed that when they crammed buildings being bombed by Israeli warplanes with innocent civilians, basically condemning them to their deaths,so they could claim Israel did it on purpose. The plan is there for all to see. When they have no hope of winning against a vastly superior military force, the opinion of outsiders is their only weapon. What better way to influence that opinion than by sacrificing their own people to that end.

Who's decision was it to bomb the building? And where could they go? Even when they hold white flags up, the IDF snipers still shoot them.

And why is Israel bombing civilian infrastructure in the first place? You can only target a building if it is out of military necessity. If the civilian casualties out weigh the military one, it's off limits and you cannot legally bomb it. Not only do the Israeli's bomb it, but they use 2000 pound bombs that take out the entire neighborhood. And destroying entire neighborhoods, kind of makes the whole rap about human shields moot, doncha think?

Save yourself some trouble and just admit I won the debate. I broke you. I am the winner. I am your master. Your holy grail. You are a shell of a former Temp................ uh...............wait a minute ..................... mmmm ............... where am I?

I don't think you want to bring up the human shield issue, in light of the IDF's constant use of "Johnnies"?

Testimony 1 – Human Shield
People are called “Johnnie. They’re Palestinian civilians” in Gaza neighborhoods. Human shields were also used to check for booby-traps and perform other services. “Sometimes the force would enter while placing rifle barrels on a civilian’s shoulder, advancing into the house and using him as a human shield. Commanders said these were the instructions and we had to do it.”​

Advancing in, with the rifle barrel on the Johnnies' shoulder?

Whereas the Goldstone Report said there was no evidence of human shields being used by the Palestinian's, there was evidence of 7 incidents of the IDF using human shields in that last big operation before Protective Edge.

 

[Billo_Really]

The stigma is there, it's Palestine's job to remove it. Until then, any Palestinian could be a potential terrorist. Palestine is doing nothing to abate the violence, has stated they want to destroy Israel, not make peace with it, among numerous other things.

You want to make Israel out as evil imperialistic occupiers with no empathy toward Palestinian "citizens". That's all I hear from you.

Israel = bad
Palestine = good

Israel = oppressor
Palestine = oppressed

Israel = criminal
Palestine = victim

Don't broadstroke much, do you?

Are you saying its MY job, to change YOUR opinion?

Am I getting you right? You want ME to do the thinking for YOU?

The "stigma", lies with your own predisposition. And that's more about you, than it is about them. You decided, to stigmatize them. That was YOUR decision to do so. OWN IT!

 

[TemplarKormac]

Are you saying its MY job, to change YOUR opinion?

Am I getting you right? You want ME to do the thinking for YOU?

The "stigma", lies with your own predisposition. And that's more about you, than it is about them. You decided, to stigmatize them. That was YOUR decision to do so. OWN IT!

Come now, don't be hypocritical. You seem to be the one who's given into stereotyping people.

 

[TemplarKormac]

Save yourself some trouble and just admit I won the debate. I broke you. I am the winner. I am your master. Your holy grail. You are a shell of a former Temp................ uh...............wait a minute ..................... mmmm ............... where am I?

You didn't win anything with this snide little remark. You have neither mastered me nor broken me. If you're gloating already, it seems you must have run out of propaganda to spew.

I can carry on this debate for a month if need be. I predicted you would get heated under the collar, and you did. Looks I'm the one who broke you.

And why is Israel bombing civilian infrastructure in the first place?

And just what were the terrorists doing? Holding town hall meetings? Give it up. These terrorists attack Israel knowing full well they'll respond with all deliberate force, and they know Israel will respond overwhelmingly. So, why not use human shields?

 

[TemplarKormac]

I don't think you want to bring up the human shield issue, in light of the IDF's constant use of "Johnnies"?

Testimony 1 – Human Shield
People are called “Johnnie. They’re Palestinian civilians” in Gaza neighborhoods. Human shields were also used to check for booby-traps and perform other services. “Sometimes the force would enter while placing rifle barrels on a civilian’s shoulder, advancing into the house and using him as a human shield. Commanders said these were the instructions and we had to do it.”

So, you're trying to justify one atrocity with another? "Oh they were doing it too, so it's justifiable."

You want to tell me what that's about?

Everett Benson

There is a further very serious problem with the Breaking the Silence Report. It was paid for by a Palestinian NGO based in Ramallah, to the tune of US$300,000, according to a report by Im Tirtzu that tracked down the data on funding provided by the NGO itself. See the article “IDF Tattle-Tales Funded by Arab Foundation, Says Report,” which appeared on the Arutz Sheva website last week, and the Im Tirtzu Report itself, “Political Terrorism,” available as a free download PDF, at the Im Tirtzu website.

BtS is also funded by other Arab sources, the New Israel Fund (NIF which as is well-known funds BDS groups and other far-left anti-Israel NGOs), and various EU countries aid programs. It turns out that several EU countries are attempting to interfere in Israel’s internal affairs to delegitimize its self-defense. None of those countries can provide better figures than Israel in counter-terrorism and counter-insurgency warfare, and they ignore Palestinian human rights violations or rather support Palestinian terrorism by their funding P.A. anti-Israel activities.

Israeli Soldiers Call ‘Breaking the Silence’ Report on Gaza War a ‘Total Lie’

Not playing your little game anymore.

IDF Tattle-Tales Funded by Arab Foundation, Says Report

 

[TemplarKormac]

Whereas the Goldstone Report said there was no evidence of human shields being used by the Palestinian's, there was evidence of 7 incidents of the IDF using human shields in that last big operation before Protective Edge.

Whoops.

Hamas DID use schools and hospitals in Gaza Strip as 'human shields'

 

[Coyote]

Actually...I've heard an argument against that. Most Israeli citizens are current or former military and can be called up at any time. So with the exception of children and religious exceptions for Haredi - does that make them military targets?

And Arab-Israeli's are banned from serving in the military, which denies them special privileges for vets.

Yup. Being in the military opens the doors to many of the better paying, higher ranking jobs. Although I don't think they are banned from serving - but they are given the choice to opt out.

If you know anything about what Nidal Hassan did, you would understand how Israel feels about letting Arabs serve in the IDF.

Nidal Hassan was one person. Are you saying we should not let Muslims serve in our military? Arab-Israeli's are still Israeli citizens and they are allowed to serve. If you ban them from serving, and at the same time close the doors to them for the opportunities a military record gives, you're increasing the divide that some citizens aren't equal.

 

[flacaltenn]

Actually...I've heard an argument against that. Most Israeli citizens are current or former military and can be called up at any time. So with the exception of children and religious exceptions for Haredi - does that make them military targets?

And Arab-Israeli's are banned from serving in the military, which denies them special privileges for vets.

Yup. Being in the military opens the doors to many of the better paying, higher ranking jobs. Although I don't think they are banned from serving - but they are given the choice to opt out.

If you know anything about what Nidal Hassan did, you would understand how Israel feels about letting Arabs serve in the IDF.

Nidal Hassan was one person. Are you saying we should not let Muslims serve in our military? Arab-Israeli's are still Israeli citizens and they are allowed to serve. If you ban them from serving, and at the same time close the doors to them for the opportunities a military record gives, you're increasing the divide that some citizens aren't equal.

The clues to this Army shrink problems were all over the place. Not a secret. In Israel, he would never been retained. They are smarter than us when it comes to JUSTLY separating threats from the large majority of Arabs that are your neighbors.

Here in this country -- we are too bound up with "fairness" and diversity and it ends up getting folk killed. When you live in a terrorist war zone -- you learn to appreciate who's a friend and who is not.. Actually makes engagement with Israeli Arabs MUCH more honest and open.. Reduces the fights to open public debate rather than shooting up a mess hall..

That's what's needed in the larger debate. You need to go to the mixed Israel/Pali daycare coops, the coalitions of University students between the warring sides and see WHY they don't have any of the venom that plagues our debate here on the forum... You don't stereotype and you don't praise mobs and senseless violence. You find the RATIONAL people and start sorting down from there.

 

[flacaltenn]

Seeing an Arab Israeli soldier backing down stone throwing teens might be a better deal. Kinda like the debate we have here about black representation on our police forces. Also why a brand new Palestine needs an interim govt provided by Arab partners. Because the focus on the "occupying force" has to be taken off of Israel to get the Palis to do the hard work of forming a nation... Let the "occupiers" be a neighboring Arab coalition in partnership with Israel -- and you defuse the focus on this "occupation gone badly"..

 

[irosie91]

Before I leave (for real this time), let's be clear. You're saying the Palestinians are committing violence out of self-defense, but when Israel strikes back, its murder.

Or are you prepared to admit that what Palestine is doing is just as unacceptable?

I'm saying once Israel ends the occupation and blockade, after that, if they receive a rocket, I fully support Israeli retaliation. Militarily.

Until then, its not striking back and its not self defense...........its aggression.

You aren't answering the question. So when Israeli citizens die by Palestinian hands, it's acceptable because "occupation"


Alright then.

It's acceptable if it is a military target.

all jews are military targets for all muslims. ----by edict--------for fun
I will ask my Good friend Coyote to guess when my good friend ---
who I will not name-----he was a muslim surgeon-----explained
that fact to me and its logical rationale-----by "when" I mean what
decade. (when thinking about Islamic edicts ---fatwahs----always
remember LOGIC)

 

[Billo_Really]

Come now, don't be hypocritical. You seem to be the one who's given into stereotyping people.

I'm not stereotyping anyone. I'm one of the few people at this website who has publically admitted I was wrong. If you give me a good enough argument, I'll acknowledge that. And if it causes me to re-think my position, I'll change it.

I'm not one of those people who have so much invested in a particular position, that changing it would be tantamount to death. Whenever I've been proven wrong, I admit it, take my beating like a man and move on.

Maybe some of that has to do with peer pressure? Because the pro-Israeli crowd, can really turn up the heat on someone who goes against their grain. That's why I said earlier, it takes a bit of courage to look at a video and acknowledge the IDF might of crossed the line on that one. For me, I don't have a problem with that at all, because I know I'm a bigger asshole than they are. Arguments are my Disneyland.

One of my biggest faults, is I enjoy confrontation a little too much. Sometimes I need to slow my roll.

But this ain't one of those times...............LET'S ROCK!

 

[Billo_Really]

Seeing an Arab Israeli soldier backing down stone throwing teens might be a better deal. Kinda like the debate we have here about black representation on our police forces. Also why a brand new Palestine needs an interim govt provided by Arab partners. Because the focus on the "occupying force" has to be taken off of Israel to get the Palis to do the hard work of forming a nation... Let the "occupiers" be a neighboring Arab coalition in partnership with Israel -- and you defuse the focus on this "occupation gone badly"..

They tried that last summer and Israel attacked.

 

[Billo_Really]

So, you're trying to justify one atrocity with another? "Oh they were doing it too, so it's justifiable."

You want to tell me what that's about?

Everett Benson

There is a further very serious problem with the Breaking the Silence Report. It was paid for by a Palestinian NGO based in Ramallah, to the tune of US$300,000, according to a report by Im Tirtzu that tracked down the data on funding provided by the NGO itself. See the article “IDF Tattle-Tales Funded by Arab Foundation, Says Report,” which appeared on the Arutz Sheva website last week, and the Im Tirtzu Report itself, “Political Terrorism,” available as a free download PDF, at the Im Tirtzu website.

BtS is also funded by other Arab sources, the New Israel Fund (NIF which as is well-known funds BDS groups and other far-left anti-Israel NGOs), and various EU countries aid programs. It turns out that several EU countries are attempting to interfere in Israel’s internal affairs to delegitimize its self-defense. None of those countries can provide better figures than Israel in counter-terrorism and counter-insurgency warfare, and they ignore Palestinian human rights violations or rather support Palestinian terrorism by their funding P.A. anti-Israel activities.

Israeli Soldiers Call ‘Breaking the Silence’ Report on Gaza War a ‘Total Lie’

Not playing your little game anymore.

IDF Tattle-Tales Funded by Arab Foundation, Says Report

You really love those ad hominems, don't you?

That's the Israeli version of Winter Soldier. As soon as someone doesn't goosestep to the beat of your own drummer, you throw them under the bus.

 

[Billo_Really]

You didn't win anything with this snide little remark. You have neither mastered me nor broken me. If you're gloating already, it seems you must have run out of propaganda to spew.

I can carry on this debate for a month if need be. I predicted you would get heated under the collar, and you did. Looks I'm the one who broke you.

You're looking under the wrong collar.

And just what were the terrorists doing? Holding town hall meetings? Give it up. These terrorists attack Israel knowing full well they'll respond with all deliberate force, and they know Israel will respond overwhelmingly. So, why not use human shields?

Palestinian's are not terrorists.

And destroying an entire building of innocent civilians, is a war crime.