CDZ Israel and Palestine

[TemplarKormac]

Lol. If a pro-Palestinian propaganda site is all you have to prove "Israeli apartheid" then your argument is pretty feeble at this point.

Ad hominems are not a valid argument.

That's not ad hominem. Ad hominem is a direct insult to you as a person. Since this is the CDZ, I refrained from personal attacks, that is unlike you, referring to Israelis as "white trash." That is by itself a reflection of your character, if anything.

I attacked your source, not you.

 

[Billo_Really]

Sounds a bit one-sided...

This is a one-sided conflict. People expect the Pals to make all the concessions and the Israeli's to make none.

As long as the occupation continues, Israel is responsible for 90% of the violence. That is the elephant in the room.

 

[Billo_Really]

Sure, or we could just grant them all amnesty, just like we're doing here for illegals.

Why would you grant someone who has committed no crime, amnesty?

Just sit back and watch the fireworks.

The fireworks are in response to the beating of innocent civilians.

In a situation like that, such thinking is dangerous to the welfare of the citizenry.

So you have no choice but to beat the crap out of innocent, unarmed civilians, who have committed no crime?

I wonder how many African-American's in the deep south heard that kind of rhetoric?

You aren't a citizen of Israel, you don't understand it one bit.

I understand you don't punish someone who has committed no crime and you certainly don't treat someone like that after they have been restrained.

I don't have to be an Israeli citizen to recognize a violation of human rights.

No Israeli deserves to be blown up by rockets and bombers, or stabbed and shot to death, but you don't care much do you?

I agree with the first part of your statement, as for the latter, you let me worry about what I care about, that's none of your concerns.

Here's the thing, whereas I can freely admit no Israeli deserves to be blown up, you cannot reciprocate in regards to the Palestinians. For them, any violence against them is acceptable. All one has to do, is look at your response to that video to see that.

Surely your passion for the issue doesn't blind you to the fact the Israelis are just as human as the Palestinians are.

Of coarse. I fully support the Israeli left. The Israeli right, can go to hell!

Some of the things the Palestinians do to them make the beating of that man look humane. Don't lecture me.

That man, didn't do anything to deserve that beating.

 

[TemplarKormac]

This is "peace" through brute force. Completely untenable.

Addressing these in order as they are listed

1) No. You want us to completely abandon Israel.
2) See 1
3) Have they done something worthy of that?
4) That is unconstitutional.
5) So you're basically wanting to declare war against Israel if they don't submit to your demands?
6) see 5
7) White trash?
8) What is this? The Cold War? Need I remind you about the Berlin Wall?

This plan will most certainly not work and will be something Israel will never agree to. To put it mildly, did you let your emotions supplant your better judgement?

The whole goal is peace, not further agitation of the conflict. Think about that. What is to be gained by using our military and diplomatic power to bully Israel?

My peace plan is based on the following premise:

Enough is enough. After almost 50 years, it is clear Israel has no intention of complying with international law or respecting human rights. To allow this situation to continue, is tantamount to allowing Hitler to annex Poland, which is completely unacceptable. Since the Israeli's will not end the occupation voluntarily, then they should be forced to; no different than forcing the Germans to end the occupation of France. Enough is enough.​

It is my personal opinion, the time for talking is over. Israel clearly will not negotiate in good faith. I get it! They called the game, so lets play ball!

Well, as Roccor said:

It is very unlikely that the International community is going to engage in armed combat with the Israelis to support the Palestinians who have conducted hostile operations against the Israelis for the last 70 years. It might be possible that the International community will try to influence the acceptance of a two-state solution; but even that is not an assured political stance given the lack of cooperation the Palestinians have demonstrated since 1988.

So, if that were the case, don't you think using violence to put an end to violence would be...counterproductive? Why would you even think of putting boots on the ground to enforce such a draconian "peace" plan? Such an emotional argument, letting your hatred dictate policy.

"Those evil Israelis will get what's coming to them, you just wait and see!"

And that slight, comparing Israel to Nazi Germany was a very childish thing to say. I think it's about time I ended this conversation with you, you're becoming increasingly agitated. We did well to get this far, but I sense this will only devolve to petty bickering.

 

[TemplarKormac]

Why would you grant someone who has committed no crime, amnesty?

I wonder that myself, but then again, you don't know who is and who isn't a terrorist. And when an entire pseudo state is bent on destroying you, you will never grant their citizens amnesty. Never will you trust them within your borders.

Amnesty is the wrong word... asylum is better.

Of coarse. I fully support the Israeli left. The Israeli right, can go to hell!

Wow. How partisan. Shows you don't support Israel at all.

The fireworks are in response to the beating of innocent civilians.

No. They aren't. It is a result of a pledge of extermination of the Jewry and three wars.

http://fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/880818a.htm

So you have no choice but to beat the crap out of innocent, unarmed civilians, who have committed no crime?

I wonder how many African-Americans in the deep south heard that kind of rhetoric?

The difference between African Americans in the Civil Rights era and the Palestinians today is this:

One sought recognition though peaceful activism. The other seeks recognition through violence.

I don't have to be an Israeli citizen to recognize a violation of human rights.

Ahh, so the Israelis aren't human beings after all. I see.

Here's the thing, whereas I can freely admit no Israeli deserves to be blown up, you cannot reciprocate in regards to the Palestinians. For them, any violence against them is acceptable. All one has to see, is your response to that video to see that.

Ad hominem. No, that's not acceptable, but nor is what the PLO, Hamas/Hezbollah are doing.

 

[Billo_Really]

That's not ad hominem. Ad hominem is a direct insult to you as a person.

You tried to discredit the source, instead of attacking the claim from the source. That's an ad hominem.

An Ad Hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument.​

Since this is the CDZ, I refrained from personal attacks, that is unlike you, referring to Israelis as "white trash." That is by itself a reflection of your character, if anything.

Are you saying that by me calling those "settlers" white trash, that I am personally attacking USMB members? Is that the red herring you are flying?

I find it interesting you object to my comments about the settlers, but think nothing of these comments by Israeli officials...

Deputy Minister of Defense (Rabbi) Eli Ben-Dahan (Jewish Home)
“[Palestinians] are beasts, they are not human.” - August 2013.​

Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development Uri Ariel (Jewish Home)
“…not even one settlement in Judea and Samaria [the occupied West Bank] will be uprooted... Israeli citizens [settlers] will only be under full Israeli sovereignty. And west of the Jordan River there will only be one state and that is the state of Israel." - March 2014

Knesset member Ayelet Shaked
“...Now this also includes the mothers of the martyrs, who send them to hell with flowers and kisses. They should follow their sons, nothing would be more just. They should go, as should the physical homes in which they raised the snakes. Otherwise, more little snakes will be raised there.”​

After seeing this crap...

Settler Violence Against Palestinians

• Attacks on Palestinians by Israeli settlers living illegally in the occupied Palestinian West Bank have increased by 150% in recent years.

...calling them "white trash", is being nice.

I attacked your source, not you.

However, that "reflection of my character" comment above, was.

 

[TemplarKormac]

As long as the occupation continues, Israel is responsible for 90% of the violence. That is the elephant in the room.

That's not true. Most of the time it's Palestine instigating the violence. You're upset because Israel defends itself.

 

[Billo_Really]

So, if that were the case, don't you think using violence to put an end to violence would be...counterproductive? Why would you even think of putting boots on the ground to enforce such a draconian "peace" plan? Such an emotional argument, letting your hatred dictate policy.

"Those evil Israelis will get what's coming to them, you just wait and see!"

And that slight, comparing Israel to Nazi Germany was a very childish thing to say. I think it's about time I ended this conversation with you, you're becoming increasingly agitated. We did well to get this far, but I sense this will only devolve to petty bickering.

Since the Palestinian's have been forced to live under draconian laws for the last 50 years, what's wrong with a draconian solution?

 

[TemplarKormac]

You tried to discredit the source, instead of attacking the claim from the source. That's an ad hominem.

No it's not. My suggestion is to you is to read carefully, my friend.

An Ad Hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument.[/QUOTE]

Are you saying that by me calling those "settlers" white trash, that I am personally attacking USMB members? Is that the red herring you are flying?

No, that is me pointing out your hypocrisy. Referring to anyone as "white trash" is ad hominem.

 

[TemplarKormac]

So, if that were the case, don't you think using violence to put an end to violence would be...counterproductive? Why would you even think of putting boots on the ground to enforce such a draconian "peace" plan? Such an emotional argument, letting your hatred dictate policy.

"Those evil Israelis will get what's coming to them, you just wait and see!"

And that slight, comparing Israel to Nazi Germany was a very childish thing to say. I think it's about time I ended this conversation with you, you're becoming increasingly agitated. We did well to get this far, but I sense this will only devolve to petty bickering.

Since the Palestinian's have been forced to live under draconian laws for the last 50 years, what's wrong with a draconian solution?

Because this eye for an eye bullshit is an unacceptable way of settling a conflict.

 

[Billo_Really]

That's not true. Most of the time it's Palestine instigating the violence. You're upset because Israel defends itself.

An occupational force cannot claim self defense.

That's like an assassin telling the cops, after he broke into his targets house and found the home owner putting up more resistance than anticipated, he had no choice but to kill the man in self defense.

 

[Billo_Really]

My suggestion is to you, is to read carefully, my friend.

The irrelevant fact was your personal feelings towards the author. You didn't address the claim, you attacked the author.

No, that is me pointing out your hypocrisy. Referring to anyone as "white trash" is ad hominem.

I didn't refer to "anyone" as white trash; I called those settlers white trash.

Do you need to be reminded where you are? You cannot deliberately misquote me. That's the second time you've done so!

 

[Billo_Really]

Because this eye for an eye bullshit is an unacceptable way of settling a conflict.

I agree.

 

[TemplarKormac]

Because this eye for an eye bullshit is an unacceptable way of settling a conflict.

I agree.

Then you know your "peace plan" is nothing more than that.

 

[TemplarKormac]

The irrelevant fact was your personal feelings towards the author. You didn't address the claim, you attacked the author.

I said nothing about the author. I attacked the source material. The site is actively biased against Israel.

I didn't refer to "anyone" as white trash; I called those settlers white trash.

Do you need to be reminded where you are? You cannot deliberately misquote me.

You did but you didn't. Okay.

I quoted you verbatim.

Then round up all their white trash settlers and stick them on busses and send them back to Israel

Being that those "white trash settlers" are Israeli, you are thus labeling Israeli citizens as "white trash" when you say "send them back to Israel." Ad hominem and racism all at once.

Well, I said I was leaving 30 minutes ago. This debate has devolved into bickering.

 

[Billo_Really]

I wonder that myself, but then again, you don't know who is and who isn't a terrorist. And when an entire pseudo state is bent on destroying you, you will never grant their citizens amnesty. Never will you trust them within your borders.

Amnesty is the wrong word... asylum is better.

The Nazis felt the same way about the Jews.

Wow. How partisan. Shows you don't support Israel at all.

I just told you I support the Israeli left. Are you saying they don't count? That only the Israeli right matter?

No. They aren't. It is a result of a pledge of extermination of the Jewry and three wars.

http://fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/880818a.htm

The reason for the pledge, is the same as the reason for the fireworks.

The difference between African Americans in the Civil Rights era and the Palestinians today is this:

One sought recognition though peaceful activism. The other seeks recognition through violence.

That's just not true. Last year, when Fatah and Hamas formed a Unity government with the intent of becoming more of a political movement and moving away from armed conflict, Israel attacked, killing 2600 Palestinian's and leaving over 10,000 homeless.

The Palestinian's are not allowed "peaceful activism".

Ahh, so the Israelis aren't human beings after all. I see.

I didn't say that.

That's the 3rd time you've misquoted me!

Ad hominem. No, that's not acceptable, but nor is what the PLO, Hamas/Hezbollah are doing.

Just so we're clear on this one point, are you saying the actions by the IDF in that video were unacceptable?

If you are, it takes a lot of courage to admit that; if you're not, then what are you saying?

 

[Billo_Really]

Then you know your "peace plan" is nothing more than that.

A peace plan.

 

[TemplarKormac]

I just told you I support the Israeli left. Are you saying they don't count? That only the Israeli right matter?

They both matter.

 

[TemplarKormac]

Just so we're clear on this one point, are you saying the actions by the IDF in that video were unacceptable?

If you are, it takes a lot of courage to admit that; if you're not, then what are you saying?

Before I leave (for real this time), let's be clear. You're saying the Palestinians are committing violence out of self-defense, but when Israel strikes back, its murder.

Or are you prepared to admit that what Palestine is doing is just as unacceptable?

 

[TemplarKormac]

The reason for the pledge, is the same as the reason for the fireworks.

Ahh, so "self defense" by Palestine involves committing genocide and ethnic cleansing. Right.

I've had enough. Later man.