CDZ Israel and Palestine

[TemplarKormac]

Hamas officials encouraging people to stand up to Israeli aggression, is not using human shields.

Did you watch the video or just read the title? Come now. Be honest.

 

[TemplarKormac]

None of that shows a rocket being fired from a civilian structure

It doesn't have to be "from" a civilian structure, it needs only be near it. Putting the rocket platforms on the roofs of these buildings would be a little too... obvious. Israel wouldn't bother. I mean, that's what rotary cannons are made for.

 

[Billo_Really]

Your previous posts are not grounded in the real timeline. The Civil War between Palis occurred BEFORE any major Israeli excursions back into Gaza. The promising Pali Authority was ruined BEFORE any major Israeli excursions into Gaza. If ya wanna do fictionalized accounts of this history -- feel free. But you're wasting your time.

THIS post shows that you really don't care what the folks who live in occupied hell think or want. No place for their opinions in your accounts of US/Israeli atrocities against them. You're observation is irrelevent to the poll. Guess the people who's communities were being destroyed didn't care a wit about Hamas's "feelings". That seems to be your baggage.

So you're saying they had a civil war WHILE they were forming a Unity government?

That's nonsense!

 

[Billo_Really]

Did you watch the video or just read the title? Come now. Be honest.

I've seen the video before and he's not saying what you claim.

 

[Billo_Really]

It doesn't have to be "from" a civilian structure, it needs only be near it.

For people to believe the Israeli's are not barbarians?

Putting the rocket platforms on the roofs of these buildings would be a little too... obvious. Israel wouldn't bother. I mean, that's what rotary cannons are made for.

You're trying to rationalize the deliberate murder of innocent civilians.

A legal target must be of "military necessity". How is destroying an entire block, after a rocket was fired from a quarter mile away, of "military necessity"?

 

[Billo_Really]

Didn't you just get through telling me Israel had no right to defend itself? Hmm?

That's not what I said. I said an occupational force, cannot claim self defense.

But what kind of question was that? I wasn't talking about Israel defending itself, I was talking about Gazans defending themselves.

Talk about a disjointed juxtaposition?

 

[Billo_Really]

When you're launching rockets from densely populated civilian areas, what can you expect?

Israel to honor international law.

 

[Billo_Really]

So they were. That's an obvious contradiction. Either they were crammed in there, or they were ordered to stay in their homes while Hamas set up shop and began firing rockets from there. Presto! Human shields.

Just don't.

They weren't crammed and they weren't ordered, that's where they lived. And rockets weren't fired from there, just near there. That's not a human shield definition.

I find it interesting you think firing a weapon, 200 meters from an object, is using that object as a shield; but you have no problem putting a child on the hood of a car and using the boy as a human shield, while you drive through the neighborhood?

 

[TemplarKormac]

For people to believe the Israeli's are not barbarians?

Just as I predicted. Typical propagandist.

I know barbarism when I see it. The actual barbarians are sacrificing their own people to win a war they have no hope of winning.

You're trying to rationalize the deliberate murder of innocent civilians.

How is it murder when the murderers are launching rockets in or around the homes of civilians on purpose to draw Israeli fire? Are you really that naive? Are you trying to rationalize that? Those civilians aren't defending anything, they aren't fighting back, they are being used as meat shields, tools for a propaganda war. That is nothing but a full blown atrocity.

I'm sorry, but I'll flatly tell you you're on the wrong side.

That's not what I said. I said an occupational force, cannot claim self defense.

So who does this "occupational force" belong to?

Israel. One in the same. Let's not parse words, Billo.

 

[TemplarKormac]

They weren't crammed and they weren't ordered, that's where they lived. And rockets weren't fired from there, just near there. That's not a human shield definition.

Do you understand what kinds of bombs the Israelis were dropping on Gaza? They were dropping 500 lb bombs, Paveway II laser guided bombs. Anyone caught within the blast radius would die instantly. I know my ordinance. These are precision guided bombs. The only way you can kill civilians with a precision, laser guided bomb is A) you drop it on a building knowing full well it is full of civilians on purpose, or B) You drop it on a target you know is launching attacks, not knowing that the building is crammed full of innocent civilians.

They could be near, or in the area when the bombs go off. Same results, human shields.

Spare me. I don't think you fully realize the gravitas of the barbarity you continually deny.

 

[TemplarKormac]

Let's review some simple and unorthodox military procedures the IDF uses before they blow a building to smithereens

Exhibit A: The "Knock on the roof" procedure.

Here in this video, the IDF detonates a harmless charge in front of a building to warn any potential occupants to vacate before Israel bombs it.



Exhibit B: A phone call. Here, they are making positively sure a hospital is completely empty of civilians, nurses, and injured before bombing it in response to Hamas terrorists firing from the building:



Now, who in hell would ever dream of telling someone where they're about to drop a bomb?

 

[TemplarKormac]

Did you watch the video or just read the title? Come now. Be honest.

I've seen the video before and he's not saying what you claim.

Let's refresh your memory then. He says and I quote:

"The policy of people confronting Israeli warplanes with their bare chests in order to protect their homes has proven effective against the occupation."

Now, what good are their homes to them if they're dead, Billo? Doesn't make much sense, now does it? That is, unless they are using these people as a tool, or a weapon of some kind as a means to convince people such as yourself that Israel bombs civilian areas indiscriminately.

 

[flacaltenn]

Your previous posts are not grounded in the real timeline. The Civil War between Palis occurred BEFORE any major Israeli excursions back into Gaza. The promising Pali Authority was ruined BEFORE any major Israeli excursions into Gaza. If ya wanna do fictionalized accounts of this history -- feel free. But you're wasting your time.

THIS post shows that you really don't care what the folks who live in occupied hell think or want. No place for their opinions in your accounts of US/Israeli atrocities against them. You're observation is irrelevent to the poll. Guess the people who's communities were being destroyed didn't care a wit about Hamas's "feelings". That seems to be your baggage.

So you're saying they had a civil war WHILE they were forming a Unity government?

That's nonsense!

You need to go get a timeline of events from the creation of the new Pali Authority thru the institution of blockades and hostilities against Gaza AFTER the withdrawal.

I'm talking about 2004 or so thru 2008. Gaza was GIVEN autonomy in a process with the PA Authority towards total control of the territority. ISRAEL TOTALLY WITHDREW and was on a path to release Gaza from any restrictions on seaports, airports, commerce. The Fatah/Hamas War and party split and the disbanding of the govt occurred BEFORE Israel ever went BACK in Gaza..

 

[Billo_Really]

No, because I don't wear one. Focus, Billo, focus. You're chained to the post of what people call "revisionist history."

I think we need to take a short trip down memory lane...

This little sidebar started when you said:
"I predicted you would get heated under the collar, and you did."

And I said:
"You're looking under the wrong collar."

Then you replied:
"I don't wear collars."

At which point, I reminded you:
"Focus. You weren't talking about your collars."​

Now you're saying I'm the one who revises history?

So you tell me, when you said:

"I predicted you would get heated under the collar, and you did."​

Who's collar were you referring to?

That's rather hard to believe, after all the times you've called Israel an occupier.

The occupation is not a debatable issue. That's what it has been for almost 50 years and you're not changing its definition now.

How you're so convinced that Israel is full of evil, heartless killers.

I didn't say that.

War is wrought with the same kind of propaganda, the most basic type.

This is not a war.

"They're all evil, we're not! So join us and help us kill them!"

Why all the red herrings?

Don't delude yourself. I've been studying the conflict for almost six years now. The first thing I normally hear from the other side is "they're occupiers!" and then they're swiftly embarrassed by the actual facts of the matter.

Again, the occupation is not a debatable issue.

The entire world (including the Israeli Supreme Court), consider these occupied territories.

You can't prove that. If none of them were terrorists, then wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that Hamas or Hezbollah wouldn't exist? You seriously can't expect me to think all of them are perfect little angels who can do no wrong, can you? That none of them would ever stoop to becoming terrorists? I can't help but laugh.

This is not an either/or issue. There are more choices to consider than

1) Hamas are terrorists or 2) Hamas are not terrorists.
1) They are perfect little angels or 2) they are devils
1) They're either all terrorists or 2) they are not terrorists
​

BTW, I have proven Israeli attacks on Gaza is terrorism. Sanctioned by the Israeli government.

Likewise, you can't prove what Israel did was terrorism.

You're repeating yourself.

So, like I said before, Israel to you can't defend itself, any act of that sort may very well be terrorism in your eyes.

I didn't say that.

This is like a woman who's been raped being the criminal for popping a cap in the rapists head in self defense. That's your logic.

I didn't say that either. Why do you keep misquoting me?

I told you, in this very thread...

This is like an assassin, when facing more resistance than anticipated after breaking into his targets' home, telling the cops he had to kill the home owner, because he was in fear for his life.​

So your comment, about my logic, doesn't wash.

What you fail to see is that Hamas wants conflict with Israel, they don't want a cessation in hostility. Simply ceasing the attacks would save countless lives.

Then why is Israel always the one breaking the ceasefires?

In 2008, Hamas unilaterally stopped the rocket attacks for 4 months, until Israel conducted a commando raid in early December, thus breaking the ceasefire.

 

[TemplarKormac]

I didn't say that either. Why do you keep misquoting me?

Why are you so focused on that? Are you deflecting?

This is not an either/or issue. There are more choices to consider than
1) Hamas are terrorists or 2) Hamas are not terrorists.
1) They are perfect little angels or 2) they are devils
1) They're either all terrorists or 2) they are not terrorists
BTW, I have proven Israeli attacks on Gaza is terrorism. Sanctioned by the Israeli government.

You said:

"1.5 million Gazans are not terrorists"

So, you made this very much into an either/or scenario.

These three scenarios were brought forth in our debate:

1) All of them are terrorists
2) Some of them are terrorists
3) None of them are terrorists

I recall you making the case against them all being terrorists, you then accused me of somehow saying they were all terrorists. I said some of them are.

BTW, I have proven Israeli attacks on Gaza is terrorism. Sanctioned by the Israeli government.

No, you didn't. Innocent civilians don't fire rockets at another country. We call those enemy combatants.

 

[TemplarKormac]

I think we need to take a short trip down memory lane...

This little sidebar started when you said:
"I predicted you would get heated under the collar, and you did."

And I said:
"You're looking under the wrong collar."

Then you replied:
"I don't wear collars."

At which point, I reminded you:
"Focus. You weren't talking about your collars."
Now you're saying I'm the one who revises history?

So you tell me, when you said:
"I predicted you would get heated under the collar, and you did."
Who's collar were you referring to?

You know, that wasn't at all what I was referring to when I mentioned "revisionist history"

I'm talking about your understanding of the conflict, from beginning to end.

 

[Billo_Really]

Just as I predicted. Typical propagandist.

You're trying to revise the definition of a "human shield" to avoid people seeing Israel in a bad light, but say I'm the propagandist?

I know barbarism when I see it. The actual barbarians are sacrificing their own people to win a war they have no hope of winning.

These are barbarians...



People who stand around a little boy who was just hit by a car yelling, "Die! Die! Die!"

How is it murder when the murderers are launching rockets in or around the homes of civilians on purpose to draw Israeli fire? Are you really that naive? Are you trying to rationalize that? Those civilians aren't defending anything, they aren't fighting back, they are being used as meat shields, tools for a propaganda war. That is nothing but a full blown atrocity.

The people who were in the building that was bombed, were not the people who launched the rocket.

I'm sorry, but I'll flatly tell you you're on the wrong side.

I'm not on any side.

So who does this "occupational force" belong to?

Israel. One in the same. Let's not parse words, Billo.

I think I was pretty clear on who the occupational force was, so why ask that question?

 

[TemplarKormac]

I'm not on any side.

Liar.

What have you been doing this entire time? You have a hard time showing your neutrality. Just look at the post I quoted that from. Does that look like you're "not on any side?"

 

[TemplarKormac]

I think I was pretty clear on who the occupational force was, so why ask that question?

I think you should answer the question. By "occupational force", you mean Israel. Just because they are an "occupational force" does not make them indistinguishable from Israel.

So thus, you claimed "as an occupational force, they have no right to self defense."

 

[TemplarKormac]

The people who were in the building that was bombed, were not the people who launched the rocket.

Did you not see the videos I posted of them blatantly launching rockets, from inside those buildings?