Islamic honor killings becoming more acceptable to Islam?

[Diuretic]

I guess the Saudis don't understand Islamic law.

The Saudis would have to be the worst example you could use. They are mediaevelists of the highest order. An absolute monarchy that masquerades as a society. It fosters Wahabbism. It is a foul, corrupt, totalitarian regime.

What does "It fosters Wahabbism" mean?

Did I spell it wrong?

 

[GHook93]

But are male relatives permitted by law to carry out honour killings in these countries?

There is De Jure and De Facto laws! Definitely all have a De Facto tolerance of honor killings!

That's just nonsense, it make no sense. You might want to try again.

Let me explain it to you in terms of segregation in American in the first half of the 20th century. Basically you have laws on the books for segregation- meaning De Jure. Then you had "standards" that were not laws on the books, but they were enforced like laws on the books - which are De Facto!

Get it! Honor killings are definitely accepted as De Facto law throughout the Islamic world!

 

[Sunni Man]

The Saudis would have to be the worst example you could use. They are mediaevelists of the highest order. An absolute monarchy that masquerades as a society. It fosters Wahabbism. It is a foul, corrupt, totalitarian regime.

What does "It fosters Wahabbism" mean?

Did I spell it wrong?

No, your spelling is fine.

It was the word "fosters" that I questioned.

 

[del]

There is De Jure and De Facto laws! Definitely all have a De Facto tolerance of honor killings!

That's just nonsense, it make no sense. You might want to try again.

Let me explain it to you in terms of segregation in American in the first half of the 20th century. Basically you have laws on the books for segregation- meaning De Jure. Then you had "standards" that were not laws on the books, but they were enforced like laws on the books - which are De Facto!

Get it! Honor killings are definitely accepted as De Facto law throughout the Islamic world!

It's always best, on a forum, not to respond if you don't have the capacity to do so, that way you look less like a fuckwit. Unfortunately for you you have just demonstrated that you are a fuckwit.

apparently, it bears repeating.

 

[Diuretic]

There is De Jure and De Facto laws! Definitely all have a De Facto tolerance of honor killings!

That's just nonsense, it make no sense. You might want to try again.

Let me explain it to you in terms of segregation in American in the first half of the 20th century. Basically you have laws on the books for segregation- meaning De Jure. Then you had "standards" that were not laws on the books, but they were enforced like laws on the books - which are De Facto!

Get it! Honor killings are definitely accepted as De Facto law throughout the Islamic world!

Let me explain something to you. The discussion here is an attempt by some to prove that honour kllings are in fact a de jure part of Sharia. The concept of de facto simply refers to things as they are commonly accepted. The moment someone in this thread makes the point that honour killings are in fact de facto in certain countries I shall be on them like a seagull on a bucket of prawns in the hot sun because that will be enough for me to point to cultural - de facto - acceptance of honour killngs. If you can fnd a concept that is both de jure and de facto then that will give me a great deal of interest. Until then stop ******* up your side of the argument. A number of people in this thread are working hard to prove that their prejudices are really facts, you're not helping them.

 

[GHook93]

Sicilians have honour killings. Calabrians have honour killings. Does that mean that Roman Catholicism is a cause of honour killings?

What a weak weak weak leftist response!

You know something. You are a pathetic individual. Cease embarrassing yourself with self-revealing posts like this. It's always best, on a forum, not to respond if you don't have the capacity to do so, that way you look less like a fuckwit. Unfortunately for you you have just demonstrated that you are a fuckwit.

You came up with a typical display of left-leaning weakness, but trying to apologize for Islamic honor killings by trying to turn it on Catholics and you are then attacking me! That is also a typical lefitst response!

 

[GHook93]

That's just nonsense, it make no sense. You might want to try again.

Let me explain it to you in terms of segregation in American in the first half of the 20th century. Basically you have laws on the books for segregation- meaning De Jure. Then you had "standards" that were not laws on the books, but they were enforced like laws on the books - which are De Facto!

Get it! Honor killings are definitely accepted as De Facto law throughout the Islamic world!

Let me explain something to you. The discussion here is an attempt by some to prove that honour kllings are in fact a de jure part of Sharia. The concept of de facto simply refers to things as they are commonly accepted. The moment someone in this thread makes the point that honour killings are in fact de facto in certain countries I shall be on them like a seagull on a bucket of prawns in the hot sun because that will be enough for me to point to cultural - de facto - acceptance of honour killngs. If you can fnd a concept that is both de jure and de facto then that will give me a great deal of interest. Until then stop ******* up your side of the argument. A number of people in this thread are working hard to prove that their prejudices are really facts, you're not helping them.

De Facto laws in many cases are far more followed than De Jure Laws in every society! See your argument is that there is nothing on the book this side of the taliban that states directly the honor killings are the law, so everything is peachy! Yet if honor killings are accepted as De Facto Laws, you let them off the hook, because these are written in stone laws. Again leftest weakness on display.

 

[TAS]

The point being made here is that Islam somehow is connected with these killings. I don't think it's the case. I think it's more the case that cultural values are behind them.

Chicken or egg. Did these values give rise to Islam, or did Islam give rise to these values?

That's a fine question. I don't know the answer.

Is it the chicken or the egg?
It's the absence of Islam. You won't find a Quran verse that allows or asks for a male family member to kill his sister or daughter because of promiscuous behavior.
If they are truly Muslim, they wouldn't kill her. They would do something else like disown her for example.

 

[GHook93]

Chicken or egg. Did these values give rise to Islam, or did Islam give rise to these values?

That's a fine question. I don't know the answer.

Is it the chicken or the egg?
It's the absence of Islam. You won't find a Quran verse that allows or asks for a male family member to kill his sister or daughter because of promiscuous behavior.
If they are truly Muslim, they wouldn't kill her. They would do something else like disown her for example.

So disowning her is the "honorable" thing to do? If my daughter, god forbides, has pre-marital sex (in fact I hope she wait until she is 25), I would NOT disowner her. I would be crush, but it would take a hell of a lot for me to turn my back on my children.

The fact that Muslims see disowning as the norm is telling also!

 

[Diuretic]

What a weak weak weak leftist response!

You know something. You are a pathetic individual. Cease embarrassing yourself with self-revealing posts like this. It's always best, on a forum, not to respond if you don't have the capacity to do so, that way you look less like a fuckwit. Unfortunately for you you have just demonstrated that you are a fuckwit.

You came up with a typical display of left-leaning weakness, but trying to apologize for Islamic honor killings by trying to turn it on Catholics and you are then attacking me! That is also a typical lefitst response!

If you lack the ability to stay on point then you start the personal attacks. I know your mo. You also twist people's points - just as you've done here "apologize for Islam honor killings by trying to turn it on Catholics". Well maybe you're not twisting the point, maybe you're just too stupid to understand my point. Either way you contribute nothing to the discussion. You really are a hopeless fuckwit.

 

[Diuretic]

What does "It fosters Wahabbism" mean?

Did I spell it wrong?

No, your spelling is fine.

It was the word "fosters" that I questioned.

I contend that the Saudis want to spread Wahabbism throughout the Islamic world. That's "fostering". In fact I was too polite. I should have said that the Saudis want the Islamic world to be under the dictates of the Wahabbists and are hostile to any other interpretations of Islam.

 

[Ravi]

No, I'm not referring to crimes by the Mafia, the Camorra or the Black Hand and so on. I'm actually referring to exactly the same sort of crimes as have been discussed here. A woman has brought shame on the family, a male relative murders her.

Islam isn't a centralised, hierarchical form of religion such as Christianity (in particular the Roman Catholic church) so it's difficult to make that comparison. It would seem though that senior Islamic figures in the UK are in fact condemning these killings. The point being made here is that Islam somehow is connected with these killings. I don't think it's the case. I think it's more the case that cultural values are behind them.

I'm not familiar with the Black Hand, etc. But if you can show me that Catholic cultures across the world engage in honor killings I'll admit that it is the religion that condones them.

Islam is connected with these killings...otherwise they wouldn't be happening across cultures and throughout the world.

I'm not trying to argue that Catholicism has anything to do with honour killings so we can dispense wth that.

But if you're trying to argue that islam has a "connection" with these killings then you'll have to do more than point to instances of them happening in various cultures across the world. If the concept of honur killings predates Islam then that pretty much seals it I think. I don't know if the concept does indeed predate Islam. But I have another question which tests your hypothesis. Indonesia is the largest Islamic nation in the world. If honour killings are part of Indonesian culture then it would go a long way to proving that Islam and honour killings are indeed linked and that Islam causes or facilitates honour killings. Find the evidence and you'll convince me. In the meantime I'm going to press the point that honour killings are found in specific cultures in various places and in societies with various dominant religions and that the concept is not embedded in Islam.

Indonesia for the most part doesn't adhere to Sharia law. The only instances I could find were in Aceh, which does adhere to Sharia law.

 

[Diuretic]

I'm not familiar with the Black Hand, etc. But if you can show me that Catholic cultures across the world engage in honor killings I'll admit that it is the religion that condones them.

Islam is connected with these killings...otherwise they wouldn't be happening across cultures and throughout the world.

I'm not trying to argue that Catholicism has anything to do with honour killings so we can dispense wth that.

But if you're trying to argue that islam has a "connection" with these killings then you'll have to do more than point to instances of them happening in various cultures across the world. If the concept of honur killings predates Islam then that pretty much seals it I think. I don't know if the concept does indeed predate Islam. But I have another question which tests your hypothesis. Indonesia is the largest Islamic nation in the world. If honour killings are part of Indonesian culture then it would go a long way to proving that Islam and honour killings are indeed linked and that Islam causes or facilitates honour killings. Find the evidence and you'll convince me. In the meantime I'm going to press the point that honour killings are found in specific cultures in various places and in societies with various dominant religions and that the concept is not embedded in Islam.

Indonesia for the most part doesn't adhere to Sharia law. The only instances I could find were in Aceh, which does adhere to Sharia law.

So, what conclusions can you draw?

Sorry, I have to add a clarifying point. Indonesia is the world's largest Islamic nation but it's a cuturally diverse nation. The dominant ethnic group is Javan. There is religious tolerance. For example, Bali is mainly Hndu. The Balinese are very different from the Javanese. Anyway, please go on.

 

[Sunni Man]

Every day here in America.

There are around 10 women who are murdered.

Police say that 74% of the women are murdered by boy friends, ex boy friends, husbands, and ex husbands.

In almost every case, there has been a seperation, pending divorce, dicorce, or restraining order, as the result of infidelity or adultry.

Yet in Western culture, we don't call these murders "honor killings".

Although, the men involved clearly feel that their "honor" has been violated and murder the women to restore their "honor".

 

[TAS]

That's a fine question. I don't know the answer.

Is it the chicken or the egg?
It's the absence of Islam. You won't find a Quran verse that allows or asks for a male family member to kill his sister or daughter because of promiscuous behavior.
If they are truly Muslim, they wouldn't kill her. They would do something else like disown her for example.

So disowning her is the "honorable" thing to do? If my daughter, god forbides, has pre-marital sex (in fact I hope she wait until she is 25), I would NOT disowner her. I would be crush, but it would take a hell of a lot for me to turn my back on my children.

The fact that Muslims see disowning as the norm is telling also!

I said "for example" disowning her.

 

[Sunni Man]

Did I spell it wrong?

No, your spelling is fine.

It was the word "fosters" that I questioned.

I contend that the Saudis want to spread Wahabbism throughout the Islamic world. That's "fostering". In fact I was too polite. I should have said that the Saudis want the Islamic world to be under the dictates of the Wahabbists and are hostile to any other interpretations of Islam.

To a large degree true.

 

[Ravi]

I'm not trying to argue that Catholicism has anything to do with honour killings so we can dispense wth that.

But if you're trying to argue that islam has a "connection" with these killings then you'll have to do more than point to instances of them happening in various cultures across the world. If the concept of honur killings predates Islam then that pretty much seals it I think. I don't know if the concept does indeed predate Islam. But I have another question which tests your hypothesis. Indonesia is the largest Islamic nation in the world. If honour killings are part of Indonesian culture then it would go a long way to proving that Islam and honour killings are indeed linked and that Islam causes or facilitates honour killings. Find the evidence and you'll convince me. In the meantime I'm going to press the point that honour killings are found in specific cultures in various places and in societies with various dominant religions and that the concept is not embedded in Islam.

Indonesia for the most part doesn't adhere to Sharia law. The only instances I could find were in Aceh, which does adhere to Sharia law.

So, what conclusions can you draw?

Sorry, I have to add a clarifying point. Indonesia is the world's largest Islamic nation but it's a cuturally diverse nation. The dominant ethnic group is Javan. There is religious tolerance. For example, Bali is mainly Hndu. The Balinese are very different from the Javanese. Anyway, please go on.

Di, are you trying to say honor killing is an Arabic thing? I don't think you are, but just please clarify that.

The conclusions I draw are that something in Sharia law seems to make the population ruled by it accept honor killings, or at the very least look the other way.

 

[TAS]

Here are links for Islamic scholars about honor killing
www.islamawareness.net/HonourKilling/honour_killings.pdf
Blame Muslims for honor killings? - Broadsheet - Salon.com
IslamiCity.com - Honor Killings

 

[Diuretic]

Let me explain it to you in terms of segregation in American in the first half of the 20th century. Basically you have laws on the books for segregation- meaning De Jure. Then you had "standards" that were not laws on the books, but they were enforced like laws on the books - which are De Facto!

Get it! Honor killings are definitely accepted as De Facto law throughout the Islamic world!

Let me explain something to you. The discussion here is an attempt by some to prove that honour kllings are in fact a de jure part of Sharia. The concept of de facto simply refers to things as they are commonly accepted. The moment someone in this thread makes the point that honour killings are in fact de facto in certain countries I shall be on them like a seagull on a bucket of prawns in the hot sun because that will be enough for me to point to cultural - de facto - acceptance of honour killngs. If you can fnd a concept that is both de jure and de facto then that will give me a great deal of interest. Until then stop ******* up your side of the argument. A number of people in this thread are working hard to prove that their prejudices are really facts, you're not helping them.

De Facto laws in many cases are far more followed than De Jure Laws in every society! See your argument is that there is nothing on the book this side of the taliban that states directly the honor killings are the law, so everything is peachy! Yet if honor killings are accepted as De Facto Laws, you let them off the hook, because these are written in stone laws. Again leftest weakness on display.

More nonsense. You misunderstand the nature of de jure and de facto. You make an assertion without bothering to explain it, justify it or even present some sort of cogent thought to support it. You stated it, that's sufficient for you. Instead, back to the whining because someone disagrees with you and you don't know how to handle it.

 

[Ravi]

Every day here in America.

There are around 10 women who are murdered.

Police say that 74% of the women are murdered by boy friends, ex boy friends, husbands, and ex husbands.

In almost every case, there has been a seperation, pending divorce, dicorce, or restraining order, as the result of infidelity or adultry.

Yet in Western culture, we don't call these murders "honor killings".

Although, the men involved clearly feel that their "honor" has been violated and murder the women to restore their "honor".

The difference is that no one considers these killings honorable. It may be a bit subtle for you to grasp, but there it is.