Is the Right of Return an Intergenerational Right?

[RoccoR]

montelatici, et al,

Oh yeh!!!

I think you need to keep off the sauce. The Jews, Samaritans, Canaanites, Greeks and others living in the area did not lose any land, they simply changed religions through the centuries. There were many different people living in what is now called Palestine when the Romans arrived. Heck, King Herod was an Arab FFS.

(COMMENT)

Q: OK, who was the Sovereign Power over Judaea at the time of Herod the Great?

A: Herod was a Roman-appointed King of Judaea (A client state).

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Shusha]

The Christians and Muslims were 99% of the population when the European Jews began their invasion of Palestine. They were less than 10% at the beginning of the Mandate after decades of migration/invasion.

The Palestinians did lose land, they owned 95% of the land prior to 1948 and now they own little or none.

The Christians and Muslims were 99% of the population BECAUSE the Christians and Muslims invaded and conquored the territory of the Jewish people.

The Jewish people were 100% of the population when their land was invaded. The Jewish people did lose land, they owned 100% of the land prior to the successive invasions.

Seriously, your arguments are your own worst enemies. Either invasion and conquoring changes sovereignty and thus confers rights to the invaders and conquorers (in which case Israel and the Jewish people win) OR the people who were kicked out of the land have an intergenerational right to return to their place of origin (in which case the Jewish people also win).

There is no way for you to argue that the Christian and Muslim invading armies conferred rights while the Jewish invading armies confer no rights and there is no way for you to argue that the Palestinians who were displaced have intergenerational rights of return while the Jewish people have no intergenerational rights to return UNLESS you apply two different sets of rules to peoples based on their ethnic origin. And THAT, my friend, is anti-semitism.

 

[montelatici]

The Christians and Muslims were 99% of the population when the European Jews began their invasion of Palestine. They were less than 10% at the beginning of the Mandate after decades of migration/invasion.

The Palestinians did lose land, they owned 95% of the land prior to 1948 and now they own little or none.

The Christians and Muslims were 99% of the population BECAUSE the Christians and Muslims invaded and conquored the territory of the Jewish people.

The Jewish people were 100% of the population when their land was invaded. The Jewish people did lose land, they owned 100% of the land prior to the successive invasions.

Seriously, your arguments are your own worst enemies. Either invasion and conquoring changes sovereignty and thus confers rights to the invaders and conquorers (in which case Israel and the Jewish people win) OR the people who were kicked out of the land have an intergenerational right to return to their place of origin (in which case the Jewish people also win).

There is no way for you to argue that the Christian and Muslim invading armies conferred rights while the Jewish invading armies confer no rights and there is no way for you to argue that the Palestinians who were displaced have intergenerational rights of return while the Jewish people have no intergenerational rights to return UNLESS you apply two different sets of rules to peoples based on their ethnic origin. And THAT, my friend, is anti-semitism.

No, Christians and Muslims were 99% of the population because they converted to those religions.

The European invaders were not the Palestinians, the native people of Palestine. They were Europeans. There is no intergenerational tie to people that lived in Palestine 2,000 years ago. The intergenerational tie is between the current Palestinians and their ancestors. Europeans are Europeans.

The Jews were not 100% of the population of Roman Palestine. There were Samaritans, Nabateans, Edomeans and of course Christians.

 

[Shusha]

No, Christians and Muslims were 99% of the population because they converted to those religions.

Converted from WHAT, Monte? And how did they find out about those other religions and cultures?

Wow, this hole is getting deep.

 

[Boston1]

He doesn't have a leg to stand on so he just makes stuff up. For instance

Quote
Christians and Muslims were 99% of the population
End Quote

He doesn't have a shred of evidence to back up that claim. Please list, when, where, after what catastrophe ? And what percentage of the population were colonists and what percentage converts ;--)

 

[montelatici]

No, Christians and Muslims were 99% of the population because they converted to those religions.

Converted from WHAT, Monte? And how did they find out about those other religions and cultures?

Wow, this hole is getting deep.

The people of the area followed many different religions before converting to others including:

Ashurists, Samaritan, Jewish, Mithras, Baal, Panbabylonists, Elagabalusism, Canaanite etc.

However, the converts to Christianity after it was declared the state religion were followers of the previous Roman state religion (paganism), Mithraism etc. Note: Many of the people were already underground Christians at the time and did not need to convert.

Converts to Islam were obviously, Christians.

I think you need to do some reading of normal secular history. before posting.

 

[montelatici]

He doesn't have a leg to stand on so he just makes stuff up. For instance

Quote
Christians and Muslims were 99% of the population
End Quote

He doesn't have a shred of evidence to back up that claim. Please list, when, where, after what catastrophe ? And what percentage of the population were colonists and what percentage converts ;--)

Of course I have evidence, or else I wouldn't have stated the fact. I only state fact. You just repeat long ago debunked Zionist propaganda. I would say that I was being generous to consider a "handful of Jews" prior to 1850, 1% of the population of Palestine. It was probably far less than 1%.

AN INTERIM REPORT​

ON THE
CIVIL ADMINISTRATION
OF​

​

PALESTINE,​

​

during the period
1st JULY, 1920--30th JUNE, 1921.​

There are now in the whole of Palestine hardly 700,000 people, a population much less than that of the province of Gallilee alone in the time of Christ.* (*See Sir George Adam Smith "Historical Geography of the Holy Land", Chap. 20.) Of these 235,000 live in the larger towns, 465,000 in the smaller towns and villages. Four-fifths of the whole population are Moslems. A small proportion of these are Bedouin Arabs; the remainder, although they speak Arabic and are termed Arabs, are largely of mixed race. Some 77,000 of the population are Christians, in large majority belonging to the Orthodox Church, and speaking Arabic. The minority are members of the Latin or of the Uniate Greek Catholic Church, or--a small number--are Protestants.

The Jewish element of the population numbers 76,000. Almost all have entered Palestine during the last 40 years. Prior to 1850 there were in the country only a handful of Jews. In the following 30 years a few hundreds came to Palestine.

Mandate for Palestine - Interim report of the Mandatory to the League of Nations/Balfour Declaration text (30 July 1921)

 

[Hollie]

He doesn't have a leg to stand on so he just makes stuff up. For instance

Quote
Christians and Muslims were 99% of the population
End Quote

He doesn't have a shred of evidence to back up that claim. Please list, when, where, after what catastrophe ? And what percentage of the population were colonists and what percentage converts ;--)

Of course I have evidence, or else I wouldn't have stated the fact. I only state fact. You just repeat long ago debunked Zionist propaganda. I would say that I was being generous to consider a "handful of Jews" prior to 1850, 1% of the population of Palestine. It was probably far less than 1%.

AN INTERIM REPORT
ON THE
CIVIL ADMINISTRATION
OF

PALESTINE,

during the period
1st JULY, 1920--30th JUNE, 1921.​

There are now in the whole of Palestine hardly 700,000 people, a population much less than that of the province of Gallilee alone in the time of Christ.* (*See Sir George Adam Smith "Historical Geography of the Holy Land", Chap. 20.) Of these 235,000 live in the larger towns, 465,000 in the smaller towns and villages. Four-fifths of the whole population are Moslems. A small proportion of these are Bedouin Arabs; the remainder, although they speak Arabic and are termed Arabs, are largely of mixed race. Some 77,000 of the population are Christians, in large majority belonging to the Orthodox Church, and speaking Arabic. The minority are members of the Latin or of the Uniate Greek Catholic Church, or--a small number--are Protestants.

The Jewish element of the population numbers 76,000. Almost all have entered Palestine during the last 40 years. Prior to 1850 there were in the country only a handful of Jews. In the following 30 years a few hundreds came to Palestine.

Mandate for Palestine - Interim report of the Mandatory to the League of Nations/Balfour Declaration text (30 July 1921)

How carelessly absurd.

Monty chatters on with: "I only state fact". and a few rambling sentences later opines:"It was probably far less than 1%"

I'm afraid this is emblematic of the cut and paste "facts" that Monty stumbles over.

 

[abu afak]

Even anti-Israel Leftists like Chomsly admit there is no multigenerational one.
In fact, there's not even a First Generation RoR.
This, another one of those beauties that has been invoked almost exclusively on Israel.

Tens of Millions were dislocated as a result of another partition in 1947: India/Pakistan
They do NOT have the right of return.
Nor do Millions of Sudeten Germans who had to flee a post-WWII border change from what is now Czechoslovakia in 1945.
And Many more cases.
see, ie, The 'Big Lie' Tactic (Evelyn Gordon) February, 2001

One of the most surprising developments of the past few weeks has been the support expressed by many ordinary Americans and Europeans for the "right of return" of Palestinian refugees to Israel. What is surprising about this proposition, put forth in numerous letters and opinion pieces published in the press recently, is that it accords Palestinians a "right" enjoyed by virtually no other refugees in history.

Most of the writers are unaware of this. But that so many well-meaning people can mindlessly parrot the canard that the repatriation of refugees is an "inalienable right" is yet another proof of the efficacy of the well-known tactic of the "big lie" - that any lie, however outrageous, will eventually be believed if repeated often enough. Certainly, it would be hard to think of many lies as easily disprovable as the idea that refugees have a "right of return" to their former homes.

The history of the 20th century is one long lesson in the falsity of this claim. To cite just a few examples:

* Millions of Moslems fled India for Pakistan following the bloody riots of 1947. India not only stripped them of citizenship, but barred them, in its constitution, from ever returning. No one ever suggested that these Moslems had a "right of return."

* After World War II, Czechoslovakia expelled all its German citizens. Yet no one suggested that the millions of Sudeten Germans had a "right of return." In 1997, Germany even signed a treaty acknowledging the irrevocability of the expulsion.

* When the communists took power in Vietnam, millions of "boat people" fled to the United States and various Asian countries. No one has ever suggested that these people have a "right of return."

* In the five years after its establishment in 1948, Israel absorbed close to 500,000 Jewish refugees - about half from the wreckage of the Holocaust and the remainder from Arab countries.

A similar number poured in over the next three years. As a result, the new state's population had doubled by 1953 and tripled by 1956. Yet no one has ever suggested that these refugees have a "right of return" to their countries of origin.

In fact, none of these refugees were even granted monetary compensation - another "inalienable right" claimed for the Palestinians. Nor is there any lack of other examples that fit this pattern. Why, then, are the Palestinian refugees so unquestionably awarded a "right" enjoyed by virtually no other refugees in history?

The best explanation lies in a circumstance that is also virtually unique to the Palestinians: Unlike most of history's refugees, the countries to which the Palestinians fled refused to absorb them - preferring to leave them in squalid refugee camps for the sake of encouraging anti-Israel sentiment.

The Moslems who fled India became full-fledged citizens of Pakistan. The Sudeten Germans were fully absorbed in Germany. The Vietnamese boat people are now productive citizens of the US. Jewish refugees from the Arab world have been fully integrated into Israel.
Yet the Palestinians - whose Arab hosts bear direct responsibility for their flight - through their decision to declare war on Israel rather than accepting the UN partition plan - still languish in refugee camps after 52 years.
[.....]​

All the world's other refugee problems from that era were solved by absorbtion.
But NOT the Palestinians.
Arab states have refused them citizenship...and land owndership and jobs.
Unlike any other group, They were given their own still-functoning agency, the UNRWA, which counts/encourages, 5 Million 'refugees'.
`

 

[Boston1]

The third and fourth Geneva conventions cover all this stuff.

First relevant fact is that Israel and the remaining Arab Muslim colonialist armies are still engaged in war.

The conventions state that a period of one year must pass before prisoners of war may begin to be repatriated.

The remaining Arab Muslim colonists refuse to end hostilities and there has never been a period of one year throughout the entire conflict were terrorist acts were not committed

Which means that a condition of war exists as defined by both the third and fourth Geneva conventions.

Until and unless the war ends, restrictions will legally remain in place.

 

[montelatici]

The only colonists are the Jews, they came from Europe and from outside Palestine. The Palestinians are the descendants of the people that have always lived in Palestine.

"Successful Jewish Colonization Will Extend Beyond Palestine Frontier, Weizmann Tells Actions Committee


July 25, 1926
London (Jul. 23)
(Jewish Telegraphic Agency)

"....the continuation of his efforts while in America to extend the Jewish Agency through his negotiations with the Marshall group, the possibilities of extending Jewish colonization work outside of the present Palestine frontiers, including. Transjordania and certain parts of Syria, were the main features around which the deliberations centered.
“Due to the success of our colonization work in Palestine proper, it is possible that eventually our colonization work will be extended beyond the frontiers of Transjordania. It is true that the Palestine government has not taken a clear stand in regard to its economic policy, but well founded demands have every prospect of being agreed to. A great deal has been achieved during the last months,” Dr. Weizmann said""
[FONT=PT Serif, Times New Roman]Successful Jewish Colonization Will Extend Beyond Palestine Frontier, Weizmann Tells Actions Committ[/FONT]

 

[Boston1]

Oh my

Monty, however could you say that.

After all we have shown through a preponderance of evidence that the Judaic peoples developed out of the early bronze age mountainous tribes of the canaan valley area.

We've also shown ample evidence that the Arab Muslim colonization period was about 4500 years later with the Arab conquest of N Africa and into the Middle East.

Yet you insist on telling this fib ;--)

XXXXX - Mod Edit --- the gag is over.. Boston1

 

[abu afak]

The only colonists are the Jews, they came from Europe and from outside Palestine. The Palestinians are the descendants of the people that have always lived in Palestine.
"Successful Jewish...

This string is about Intergenerational (or other) Right of Return.
Control your 'ant-cough-zionist' self Akhmed. You're foaming.
-

 

[montelatici]

The only colonists are the Jews, they came from Europe and from outside Palestine. The Palestinians are the descendants of the people that have always lived in Palestine.
"Successful Jewish...

This string is about Intergenerational (or other) Right of Return.
Control your 'ant-cough-zionist' self Akhmed. You're foaming.
-

Don't claim that the Palestinians are the colonists, which is denied by the quotes of the Zionists themselves, and posting fact that debunks the lie won't be necessary.

 

[flacaltenn]

The only colonists are the Jews, they came from Europe and from outside Palestine. The Palestinians are the descendants of the people that have always lived in Palestine.

"Successful Jewish Colonization Will Extend Beyond Palestine Frontier, Weizmann Tells Actions Committee


July 25, 1926
London (Jul. 23)
(Jewish Telegraphic Agency)

"....the continuation of his efforts while in America to extend the Jewish Agency through his negotiations with the Marshall group, the possibilities of extending Jewish colonization work outside of the present Palestine frontiers, including. Transjordania and certain parts of Syria, were the main features around which the deliberations centered.
“Due to the success of our colonization work in Palestine proper, it is possible that eventually our colonization work will be extended beyond the frontiers of Transjordania. It is true that the Palestine government has not taken a clear stand in regard to its economic policy, but well founded demands have every prospect of being agreed to. A great deal has been achieved during the last months,” Dr. Weizmann said""
[FONT=PT Serif, Times New Roman]Successful Jewish Colonization Will Extend Beyond Palestine Frontier, Weizmann Tells Actions Committ[/FONT]

1926 huh? Well that cans it for me !!! I'm switching sides..

 

[Hollie]

The only colonists are the Jews, they came from Europe and from outside Palestine. The Palestinians are the descendants of the people that have always lived in Palestine.
"Successful Jewish...

This string is about Intergenerational (or other) Right of Return.
Control your 'ant-cough-zionist' self Akhmed. You're foaming.
-

Don't claim that the Palestinians are the colonists, which is denied by the quotes of the Zionists themselves, and posting fact that debunks the lie won't be necessary.

Of course the Pal'istanians (Ottoman colonists, Egyptian, Syrian and Lebanese squatters) are colonists.

You just deny the facts and put an arbitrary timeline on your subjective presumptions to placate your Jooooooooo hatreds.

 

[Shusha]

The only colonists are the Jews, they came from Europe and from outside Palestine.

But you still fail to see how your claim here affects the intergenerational "rights" of the Palestinians. See, ALL of the Palestinians who no longer live in Palestine now come from outside Palestine. And are therefore ineligible for RoR. According to your premise here, they come from Syria and from Jordan and from wherever else they went to and therefore, if they return, are colonists.

Therefore, with every post you are arguing against an intergenerational RoR.

 

[montelatici]

The only colonists are the Jews, they came from Europe and from outside Palestine.

But you still fail to see how your claim here affects the intergenerational "rights" of the Palestinians. See, ALL of the Palestinians who no longer live in Palestine now come from outside Palestine. And are therefore ineligible for RoR. According to your premise here, they come from Syria and from Jordan and from wherever else they went to and therefore, if they return, are colonists.

Therefore, with every post you are arguing against an intergenerational RoR.

As stated on many occasions, because the actions of the UN were the cause of the eviction of the non-Jewish "inhabitants" from Palestine, and facilitated the establishment of a European colony at the expense of the native people "the inhabitants" (which were the protected group per the Covenant of the League of Nations, Article 22), the UN gave special consideration to the native people their actions harmed. That is, the UN failed to insure "the well-being and development" of the inhabitants as was the duty of the Mandatory and its successor, the UN. The UN set forth different rules for Palestinian refugees in terms trans-generational status and you will read in the various post eviction resolutions the UN call for the return of the refugees to the lands they were evicted from.

 

[Shusha]

As stated on many occasions, because the actions of the UN were the cause of the eviction of the non-Jewish "inhabitants" from Palestine, and facilitated the establishment of a European colony at the expense of the native people "the inhabitants" (which were the protected group per the Covenant of the League of Nations, Article 22), the UN gave special consideration to the native people their actions harmed. That is, the UN failed to insure "the well-being and development" of the inhabitants as was the duty of the Mandatory and its successor, the UN. The UN set forth different rules for Palestinian refugees in terms trans-generational status and you will read in the various post eviction resolutions the UN call for the return of the refugees to the lands they were evicted from.

Ah. It becomes more clear. So, you are, in fact, against an intergenerational RoR and believe that those displaced and expelled from territory lose their rights to that territory. You make an exception for the Palestinians -- you privilege the Palestinians with rights never before expected or granted -- based on your understanding of certain UN resolutions.

I think that is actually quite in line with what others are saying -- that the Palestinians are being granted exceptional considerations never before heard of in history. The question then becomes a matter of whether or not those exceptional considerations should be granted, on a moral and legal level, and whether or not they actually have been.

Thanks for the clarification. I'm going to go check on a few things and get back.

 

[montelatici]

As stated on many occasions, because the actions of the UN were the cause of the eviction of the non-Jewish "inhabitants" from Palestine, and facilitated the establishment of a European colony at the expense of the native people "the inhabitants" (which were the protected group per the Covenant of the League of Nations, Article 22), the UN gave special consideration to the native people their actions harmed. That is, the UN failed to insure "the well-being and development" of the inhabitants as was the duty of the Mandatory and its successor, the UN. The UN set forth different rules for Palestinian refugees in terms trans-generational status and you will read in the various post eviction resolutions the UN call for the return of the refugees to the lands they were evicted from.

Ah. It becomes more clear. So, you are, in fact, against an intergenerational RoR and believe that those displaced and expelled from territory lose their rights to that territory. You make an exception for the Palestinians -- you privilege the Palestinians with rights never before expected or granted -- based on your understanding of certain UN resolutions.

I think that is actually quite in line with what others are saying -- that the Palestinians are being granted exceptional considerations never before heard of in history. The question then becomes a matter of whether or not those exceptional considerations should be granted, on a moral and legal level, and whether or not they actually have been.

Thanks for the clarification. I'm going to go check on a few things and get back.

The special regime for the Palestinians is clearly stated by the UN. You may disagree with it, but it exists.