Is Roman Polanski a criminal?

[zaangalewa]

"Middle America", in American linguistic usage, means, roughly, the established middle class.

Okay. Strange countries - strange customs. Got it. And all this people hate what exactly in this context?

Katha Pollit is saying, here, that the American middle class -- who are not, as she is using the term here -- liberal, like she is, loathes Hollywood. Remember, this was written nearly 25 years ago, and might not be so true now.

"Middle America" is, or was, a term often used by Leftist intellectuals as term carrying a connotation of faint derision, even contempt -- 'philistines', people who voted for Republicans or conservative Democrats. But here, she is showing some sympathy for their attitude to Hollywood. Now the established Left are middle class and have this attitude towards their own working class.

Far Leftists often had this view of middle-class America. As did your own Baader-Meinhoff group

Good grief. Don't remember me to this idiots and the weird reactions of our weird politicians. Some of them seem still today to rob a bank from time to time when they need money because this seems to be their only way to get money. Since decades the police is not able to find them.

and similar radicals, for middle-class Germany in the 1960s, who were interested only in consumption, rather than in fighting American imperialism.

This all had been totally absurde discussions which made not any big sense.

 

[Polishprince]

Roman Polanski didn't drug and rape young women.

Correct.

Mr. Polanski drugged and raped CHILDREN.

And that's why he was convicted of child molestation in California.

And that kind of shit just doesn't fly in middle America- although the Eurotrash are apparently fine with it as well as the elite in Hollywood who gave him an award and a standing fucking ovation for his baby-rapery.

 

[Doug1943]

I strongly disagree. She destroyed that boy's life. He is now raising their two children on his own and he says he now understands how much different his life would have been if she hadn't messed with him.

His dreams of college and a professional career were dashed, their marriage ended in divorce. He was 12 when she started with him. It changed his entire life, and while he has two lovely daughters, he didn't have much say in that even.

I know a woman who was sexually abused at the same age. She still has PTSD, anxiety attacks, and other mental health issues. Seeing him interviewed, I really felt sorry for what she took from him.

I don't know the case you're talking about, but I agree with you, where the age is 12. And I could see, theoretically, the same situation with a 16 year old, or even a 19 year old, if the boy actually falls in love with the older woman, and then she leaves him. Maybe things have changed since I was 16 years old (over sixty years ago), but we were all focussed on one thing. And it wasn't having a lifelong relationship with a woman we loved. Yes, we also 'fell in love', but it wasn't the same thing.

If someone shows me a reliable academic study that says that teenage boys in this situation suffer as much as teenage girls do, I'll change my mind. But I think the current attitude is a result of a wrong theory, namely, that men are just women who can't have babies, and that otherwise we're psychologically identical, except where we've been socially conditioned to be otherwise.

 

[zaangalewa]

... Eurotrash ...

Oha. Did I tell you that we invented AI-robot-bees? In combination with your gene code it is able to produce an individually medicine and to inject it. We could send one to the USA and let you find from her. The Robo-bee will organize some genetic material from you and will infect you afterwards with blue measelS. Blue measels are like measels but blue with a yellow star in the middle. Afterwords you will be civilized. This and a warm living heart are the only bad consequences for you.

 

[Doug1943]

Okay. Strange countries - strange customs. Got it. And all this people hate what exactly in this context?



Good grief. Don't remember me to this idiots and the weird reactions of our weird politicians. Some of them seem still today to rob a bank from time to time when they need money because this seems to be their only way to get money. Since decades the police is not able to find them.



This all had been totally absurde discussions which made not any big sense.

I don't know how old you were in the 60s/70s, or if you were even alive then. But in all the developed countries, the American war in Vietnam had a big impact on young Leftists. The 'old Left' opposed the war, of course, but wanted to fight it by 'mobilizing the people' -- in big demonstrations, and later at the ballot box. Many young Leftists, though, were impatient -- they thought their own working class had been bought off by the proceeds of imperialist exploitation.

So they turned to what we would call 'terrorism', "bringing the war home," as the American Weathermen put it. In America, the working class had never been socialist, so this attitude was understandable.

But it occurred even in France and Italy and Germany, where the working class had always -- since the late 19th Century -- been either Socialist or Communist. But Germany was prosperous, the workers didn't look like rising up, so a section of your young radicals turned to violence.

It's all outlined in a book written by an acquaintance of mine, Hitler's Children, here:

"On the surface, they were militant revolutionaries. But in reality they were 'Hitler's Children' - both in the sense that most of them were born during the Nazi regime, and in the sense that they were fiercely opposed to individual freedom and liberal democracy.

In this ground-breaking book, Jillian Becker examines the roots of the Gang. The terrorists in the Federal Republic of Germany came out of the pacifist ‘new left’ student protest movement of the late 1960s. Few in number, almost all of them came from prosperous, educated families. Unaware how closely they resembled their Nazi predecessors, they described themselves as ‘anti-fascist’. ‘Fascism’, they claimed, lay just under the surface of liberal democracy and would be called into the open by the use of terrorist violence.

In the name of ‘peace’, ‘national liberation’, ‘anti-imperialism’, and ‘anti-capitalism’, they killed Germans, Americans, Jews and others with bullets and bombs. Detailed biographical portraits, especially of Ulrike Meinhof and Gudrun Ensslin, reveal how they laid waste their own lives, and drove themselves furiously to their own destruction."

[ https:// amazon.com/Hitlers-Children-Story-Baader-Meinhof-Terrorist-ebook/dp/B00H852B4S/ ]

 

[Moonglow]

You are an unbelievable violent society. In Germany for example all policemen together (about 250,000 men and women) normally shoot less than 100 times including warn shots in serios situations and normally less than 10 criminals have to die because of such an extreme intervention. Often it are much less than 10 victims a year - very seldom - in a bad year - it are some few more.

Don't blame me for yous being underproductive.

 

[zaangalewa]

I don't know how old you were in the 60s/70s,

Much older than now.

or if you were even alive then. But in all the developed countries, the American war in Vietnam had a big impact on young Leftists.

Left wing vs right wing means nothing to me. I do not think in such categories.

The 'old Left' opposed the war,

Which war? ... Ah yeas - the war in Vietnam. This problem was an "easy" problem. After you awoke in Korea - with a very bitter price - you understood that the Soviets which you had supported in world war 2 had been a much greater threat for the USA than the Nazis had been. This continued in Vietnam - and everyone was conviced this is okay - but more and more you killed so many Vietnamese with your more and more "perfect" military machine so it it looked like the Vietnamese will not survive your liberation war. And then you made something what was one of the most astonishing actions which ever had happened since all mankind exists. You decided to fight against yourselve and to end this war. And you wan against yourselve. This made you to a really great nation.

of course, but wanted to fight it by 'mobilizing the people' -- in big demonstrations, and later at the ballot box. Many young Leftists, though, were impatient -- they thought their own working class had been bought off by the proceeds of imperialist exploitation.

They had a lot of fun - while every day had been able to be the last day of mankind - so who cares any longer?

So they turned to what we would call 'terrorism', "bringing the war home," as the American Weathermen put it. In America, the working class had never been socialist, so this attitude was understandable.

But it occurred even in France and Italy and Germany, where the working class had always -- since the late 19th Century -- been either Socialist or Communist. But Germany was prosperous, the workers didn't look like rising up, so a section of your young radicals turned to violence.

It's all outlined in a book written by an acquaintance of mine, Hitler's Children, here:

?

"On the surface, they were militant revolutionaries. But in reality they were 'Hitler's Children' - both in the sense that most of them were born during the Nazi regime, and in the sense that they were fiercely opposed to individual freedom and liberal democracy.

In this ground-breaking book, Jillian Becker examines the roots of the Gang. The terrorists in the Federal Republic of Germany came out of the pacifist ‘new left’ student protest movement of the late 1960s. Few in number, almost all of them came from prosperous, educated families. Unaware how closely they resembled their Nazi predecessors, they described themselves as ‘anti-fascist’. ‘Fascism’, they claimed, lay just under the surface of liberal democracy and would be called into the open by the use of terrorist violence.

In the name of ‘peace’, ‘national liberation’, ‘anti-imperialism’, and ‘anti-capitalism’, they killed Germans, Americans, Jews and others with bullets and bombs. Detailed biographical portraits, especially of Ulrike Meinhof and Gudrun Ensslin, reveal how they laid waste their own lives, and drove themselves furiously to their own destruction."

[ https:// amazon.com/Hitlers-Children-Story-Baader-Meinhof-Terrorist-ebook/dp/B00H852B4S/ ]

Sorry - but I never lived in fear of this people nor did I take them serios. For me this all was just simple a nice funny world.

 

[Dragonlady]

I don't know the case you're talking about, but I agree with you, where the age is 12. And I could see, theoretically, the same situation with a 16 year old, or even a 19 year old, if the boy actually falls in love with the older woman, and then she leaves him. Maybe things have changed since I was 16 years old (over sixty years ago), but we were all focussed on one thing. And it wasn't having a lifelong relationship with a woman we loved. Yes, we also 'fell in love', but it wasn't the same thing.

If someone shows me a reliable academic study that says that teenage boys in this situation suffer as much as teenage girls do, I'll change my mind. But I think the current attitude is a result of a wrong theory, namely, that men are just women who can't have babies, and that otherwise we're psychologically identical, except where we've been socially conditioned to be otherwise.

In the case we were discussing, the boy was 12 when they started. Their first child was born when he was in high school and she was in prison. He quit school to work and care for the child.

When she got out of prison, they married and had another child. And then divorced. She died and he raised their daughters.

Votto felt that the marriage vindicated her assault on him, but I’m saying that it does not. It’s basically “Stockholm syndrome”.

This is what “grooming” really looks like.

I know teenagers who were underage and had consensual relationships with older adults iniated by the teenagers. But none of them ended in a way that fundamentally changed their lives. And none involved a teacher or person in a position of authority.

 

[zaangalewa]

Don't blame me for yous being underproductive.

Vielwisserei macht noch keinen Verstand. Oh sorry. It's German and I'm not able to translate it. ... "to know a lot makes still no 'intelligence'" ... what's by the way a good reason to call AI "machine 'thinking'". What an AI program is doing has not really to do with intelligence.

Oh one moment - I gave you the totally wrong answer. I have a cold.

My answer on the statement which you wrote here is just simple "idiot".

 

[Doug1943]

In the case we were discussing, the boy was 12 when they started. Their first child was born when he was in high school and she was in prison. He quit school to work and care for the child.

When she got out of prison, they married and had another child. And then divorced. She died and he raised their daughters.

Votto felt that the marriage vindicated her assault on him, but I’m saying that it does not. It’s basically “Stockholm syndrome”.

This is what “grooming” really looks like.

I know teenagers who were underage and had consensual relationships with older adults iniated by the teenagers. But none of them ended in a way that fundamentally changed their lives. And none involved a teacher or person in a position of authority.

This is one area where, more than any other, human judgement must temper the written word.
Nearly 40 years ago, I began teaching in a university mathematics department where one of the professors (we call them 'lecturers' over here [the UK]) had a relationship with one of his PhD students, which, even then, was theoretically frowned upon although there were no formal rules in place forbidding it. (Less frowned upon than with undergraduates, where it's not so much age, as the possibility of favoritism in markings that is taken into account).

However ... for both of them, it was probably the first time they had ever kissed anyone romantically. They ended up getting married, having a family, and are married to this day. So it was an informal rule that was broken but with a happy ending.

On the other hand, at the institution where I had previously taught, one of the lecturers was a notorious Romeo -- he ended up getting a girl pregnant. It was a huge, but hushed-up scandal. I'm sure he would be fired today, and rightly so.

With young people, and with older people who are also in positions of authority, there are questions both of abuse of power (even if it's subtle), and of maturity.

I'm actually astonished that it still happens, given the penalties. But it seems that every year, some poor female teacher gets her photograph plastered all over the internet, because she foolishly slept with a pupil. I could understand, if not condone, it with a male: we're animals, barely restrained by convention and law. But women, I have always assumed, are less driven and more sensible. Maybe it's something in the water.

 

[struth]

MSN

www.msn.com

The victim of a rape at the age of 14 years old says that the incident was "no big deal" and that Roman Polanski should not have gone to jail for it. She said it did not negatively impact her at all.

What has gone so wrong with society?

Put another way, why does Hollywood and the Left worship Roman but flushed Bill Cosby down the sewer for essentially the same thing, only, Roman preyed on minors.

Thoughts?

well he plead guilty to a crime, and was found guilty, and jumped bail before sentencing...so yeah, he's a criminal.

 

[struth]

The Left seems to have a Jim Jones effect on their cult members.

The most heinous crimes are now no big deal, so long as the rich and powerful in the Left wants them protected.

I even wonder if Roman asked the mother to drive her daughter to him so he could drug and rape her, much like cult leaders have mothers give their daughters to them to have sex with. Being brainwashed, they do it without a thought.

There is a reason Jim Jones was a Dem, close to Dem politicans, and made his cult up of dems

 

[Votto]

There is a reason Jim Jones was a Dem, close to Dem politicans, and made his cult up of dems

He actually was a bisexual and Marxist who thought the church did not have enough "social justice"

Jim was a pioneer Progressive and model for those to follow today.

 

[struth]

He actually was a bisexual and Marxist who thought the church did not have enough "social justice"

Jim was a pioneer Progressive and model for those to follow today.

He was admired by a lot of dem politicans back in his time.

 

[Doug1943]

Much older than now.



Left wing vs right wing means nothing to me. I do not think in such categories.



Which war? ... Ah yeas - the war in Vietnam. This problem was an "easy" problem. After you awoke in Korea - with a very bitter price - you understood that the Soviets which you had supported in world war 2 had been a much greater threat for the USA than the Nazis had been. This continued in Vietnam - and everyone was conviced this is okay - but more and more you killed so many Vietnamese with your more and more "perfect" military machine so it it looked like the Vietnamese will not survive your liberation war. And then you made something what was one of the most astonishing actions which ever had happened since all mankind exists. You decided to fight against yourselve and to end this war. And you wan against yourselve. This made you to a really great nation.



They had a lot of fun - while every day had been able to be the last day of mankind - so who cares any longer?



?



Sorry - but I never lived in fear of this people nor did I take them serios. For me this all was just simple a nice funny world.

I think today's Germans face a serious problem. On the one hand, objectively, Germany should be the leader of Europe, and her military protector. Then the Amis could come home.

On the other hand, because of Hitler and WWII, you have not been allowed to take up your natural role at the head of Europe. This has given rise to terrible feelings of resentment of America, and of the other European nations, all mixed in with guilt. Thus Angela Merkel's insane decision to bring in a million Muslims.

What to do? Reinstitute conscription, build up a massive army, increase your taxes so that you can produce more of those magnificent Leopard tanks and build a good nuclear arsenal. (While imitating the prudent Swiss in instituting a Civil Defense-conscious building code.) Then tell the Yanks to take a hike. We won't mind.

 

[Dragonlady]

This is one area where, more than any other, human judgement must temper the written word.
Nearly 40 years ago, I began teaching in a university mathematics department where one of the professors (we call them 'lecturers' over here [the UK]) had a relationship with one of his PhD students, which, even then, was theoretically frowned upon although there were no formal rules in place forbidding it. (Less frowned upon than with undergraduates, where it's not so much age, as the possibility of favoritism in markings that is taken into account).

However ... for both of them, it was probably the first time they had ever kissed anyone romantically. They ended up getting married, having a family, and are married to this day. So it was an informal rule that was broken but with a happy ending.

On the other hand, at the institution where I had previously taught, one of the lecturers was a notorious Romeo -- he ended up getting a girl pregnant. It was a huge, but hushed-up scandal. I'm sure he would be fired today, and rightly so.

With young people, and with older people who are also in positions of authority, there are questions both of abuse of power (even if it's subtle), and of maturity.

I'm actually astonished that it still happens, given the penalties. But it seems that every year, some poor female teacher gets her photograph plastered all over the internet, because she foolishly slept with a pupil. I could understand, if not condone, it with a male: we're animals, barely restrained by convention and law. But women, I have always assumed, are less driven and more sensible. Maybe it's something in the water.

The female teachers make the internet because it's still a relatively rare happening, but with male teachers and female students, it's a cliche, and it's kept hushed up for the sake of the "girl's reputation". Mostly it's for the sake of the SCHOOL'S reputation. The Board doesn't want to sent around a letter saying "Mr. Jones in room 123 was charged with sexual abuse of a student. If your child has had any problem with Mr. Jones, please advise the police."

One of the complaints of college students is that when they're sexually assaulted the school doesn't want them to go to the police, because they don't want parents thinking their daughters will be raped if they attend school there. School officials will try to stop them from reporting incidents, and fail to follow through when they do.

 

[Dragonlady]

He actually was a bisexual and Marxist who thought the church did not have enough "social justice"

Jim was a pioneer Progressive and model for those to follow today.

No he wasn't. He was a lunatic who murdered his followers. Like David Koresh. Crazy, perverted, and quite, quite mad.

 

[Doug1943]

He actually was a bisexual and Marxist who thought the church did not have enough "social justice"

Jim was a pioneer Progressive and model for those to follow today.

He had a political machine that could turn out hundreds of door-to-door workers. So he was deferred to by Bay Area Democrats, with one courageous exception --- Leo Ryan -- who paid with his life for his courage. Sort of like Republican politicians do to Donald Trump.

Interesting, and tragic, story: I grew up in Houston in the 50's and 60's, and started a socialist youth group there in 1959 -- a branch of YPSL, Young Peoples Socialist League. (Our most famous member, nationally, was Lee Harvey Oswald). One of the members was a fellow named Danny Schact, the son of two CP members or dues-cheaters. I had political differences with Danny, mainly over whether Russia was 'socialist' or not, but we were both Marxists, and historical materialists.

One summer I was home from university and visiting Danny in his flat behind his parents' house. His younger brother, Larry, about 16, came in. And... he was a hippy! Long hair, love beads, into astrology, not political at all... disgusting!

A few years later, while I was living in Bezerkely, I ran into Danny again. He had been totally transformed! His hair was cut short, he was wearing a tie .... what had happened? He had found Jesus! And his new church was putting him through medical school, at UC Berkeley! (At that time, I didn't think much of religion -- the opium of the masses -- but I had to concede that if it could rescue a kid from a pointless life as a drug-addled hippy, it wasn't all bad.)

Wrong. The next time I heard about Larry, a few years after that, was in Time Magazine. The church that had rescued him was Jim Jones'. And Larry was the doctor who mixed up the cyanide and killed 900 people, including himself, in Jonestown. (Jones had already ordered the murder of a liberal Democratic Congressman who had flown down to investigate claims by Jonestown members that they were being held against their will.)

Lessons? I don't know. People look for infallible leaders in which to entrust their faith, but we have known that for a long time. Modern society doesn't offer young people much of a challenge. All the old certainties of family, faith and country are melting away. Social roles are dissolving. The certainties of centuries are vanishing.

You might think that AI, space travel, genetic engineering ... would provide more than enough material for young people to look forward to taking part in. Instead, they've gone crazy.

Larry was sort of a precursor. He found meaning in the pseudo-political/pseudo-religion of Jim Jones' 'church'. It gave him meaning, and also a purpose, to work hard and apply his high intelligence to becoming a doctor.

In fact, my whole generation -- or an important layer of it -- was like Larry, because we lost faith in America. Most of these young people didn't do anything dramatic. They became teachers, professors, lawyers, journalists, government employees -- and transmitted their skepticism about society, amplified, to the next generation, and then again ... with the results we see now.

Danny died in December. None of the obituaries I read mentioned the tragedy of Larry.

 

[Doug1943]

The female teachers make the internet because it's still a relatively rare happening, but with male teachers and female students, it's a cliche, and it's kept hushed up for the sake of the "girl's reputation". Mostly it's for the sake of the SCHOOL'S reputation. The Board doesn't want to sent around a letter saying "Mr. Jones in room 123 was charged with sexual abuse of a student. If your child has had any problem with Mr. Jones, please advise the police."

One of the complaints of college students is that when they're sexually assaulted the school doesn't want them to go to the police, because they don't want parents thinking their daughters will be raped if they attend school there. School officials will try to stop them from reporting incidents, and fail to follow through when they do.

Yes, you're right. And if you think it's bad now .... imagine what it was like for decades and decades before the modern day.

 

[Doug1943]

He actually was a bisexual and Marxist who thought the church did not have enough "social justice"

Jim was a pioneer Progressive and model for those to follow today.

Well ... before we get too self-righteous, let's not forget all those men on the Right who weren't able to keep their hands off their nubile young female followers... and sometimes the boys too.

My favorite of this sorry crew is this guy: [ Billy James Hargis - Wikipedia ]
He beat the rap, but I'm morally certain he was guilty as hell.

Some liberal has a long list of all the Republican politicians who have gone down -- so to speak -- for sex crimes. Even the president of Hillsdale College, our premier educational institution, evidently was a sinner -- with his son's wife!

Let's hope the difference is this: we on the Right acknowledge that these are crimes. But (some people on) the Left are working to dissolve away all the traditional strictures and taboos in this area, making sex just another form of pleasure, with the only requirement being informed consent of both -- I should say 'all', shouldn't I? -- parties.

And, from a strictly rational perspective, why not? But taking into account the centrality of the traditional family in forming civilized society, we oughtn't to be jumping so fast into this Brave New World.